Are you and "in" or an "out"?



  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Interesting point JT. But what constitutes an idiot? Is it by a set of conditions or relative to someone else?

    What is damage to the country?

    I've seen smashed up bus shelters. Horrendous vandalism; a boon to glaziers and the like.

    Democracy is just what it is. If the masses are thick then educate them.

    Common pattern of thought appears to be that those 'in the know' are clever intelligent people and everyone else is just stupid. Again, a relative judgement.

    I've seen super clever people bankrupt themselves while holding a grudge against financially adapt so called 'thicko's as; in their opinion, the money is wasted on them.

    Personally, I accept that people are different. No use raging against them and calling them thick and stupid. They don't like it, and if you work with these people, your standing as a figure of respect is severely compromised.

    People might find that reacting to the Brexit result is about as far as changing their lives will get.




  • Sorry for my duplicate post above..

    Nicely said JT141.

    Now how about Politicians do their bloody jobs and run the country in the countrys best interests ?

    Brexit is madness - built on fear and lies.

    What have we got politicians for if they demote the most important decisions of the country to us ? People can't be trusted with this kind of thing ?

    Or lets just burn down the Houses of Parliament and run the country from the Jeremy Kyle show. Press your red button to vote....

    It could hardly be worse - AND we save on the MP's !
  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    I do understand your point Ric and think it's very valid. In the context of what I'm saying I don't think "idiot" or "damage" are such slippery amorphous words. I'd pretty much stick with their dictionary definitions. Actually, perhaps I would more correctly say "fools democracy" rather than idiot.
  • runner-manrunner-man ✭✭✭

    Don't worry everyone. The Scottish Parliament could block the UK leaving the EU. Bloody unlikely but worth a try.

    Parliament commences tomorrow. There is a possibility the SNP will table for a 2nd referendum. Depends if they can get as much tory and labour support. The vote could be overturned in parliament. A dangerous move to reverse a public decision.

    Sadly it won't happen because we have a leaderless government and a depleted shadow opposition. In a time when you need stability and unity.

  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    If I'm being patronising or dismissive or disrespectful of people's position on this it's because I've reached an impasse and I don't know what else I'm supposed to do. I am, and have, tried to engage and consider the opposing view and argument. But I keep finding empty rhetoric, poor reasoning, prejudice, misinformation, misunderstanding, vitriol. I don't know what else to do when faced with that. I'm told I should respect it, but respect what about it? I shouldn't tarnish things with the labels stupid or bigoted when under every consideration I can give some of this stuff is stupid and bigoted. I'm told it doesn't matter and move on, but it does matter. I'm told it's all relative and everything is as intellectually valid as everything else. Is it?

    Sometimes you've just got to call a duck a duck, no matter how many people have convinced themselves it's something else.
  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    You know what, I'm going to go back on what I said. In general I don't believe in acting or making judgements purely on the numbers of other people's actions or beliefs. And to my core I believe leaving the EU is a foolish and damaging decision. But, political democracy... Bugger, I think even if I was given a veto to stop this whole thing I wouldn't actually use it, as much as I think it would be the right thing to do. As a precedent it is too dangerous, too much of an abuse. We just have to learn from our mistakes, accepting that there's no certainty we'll learn a damn thing. Bollocks. Still, give your elected officials hell and make your feelings plain. It's with them now. We need them on their absolute top game. Don't let them fuck it up.
  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    Anyway, on a lighter note I'm planning on starting a post-Brexit T-shirt company. First few slogans we've got is

    - I'm alright, I've got Euros

    - Bring back lead in paint

    - Ban the seatbelt.

    - Go back to where you came from, after you've finished the loft conversion.

    Your suggestions are very welcome.
  • VDOT52VDOT52 ✭✭✭
    Mrs Farage out!
  • I think democracy is dead.

    What's the point in it when the people you vote for are blatantly lying just to get your votes?

    Brexit has no plans. They blame no 10 and say it's up to them to have had plans. What the????

    IDS has gone back on the 350m pledge - it was just a series of possibilities.

    These traitors have hoodwinked the gullible British public and damaged the country - just to get power.

    Seriously what are the next general elections going to be like?
  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    I really don't think anyone on both sides expected Leave to actually win.

  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    - de(s)cent person.

    - warm up my beer

    - taking back our mugtree

    - I hate brigades.
  • VDOT52VDOT52 ✭✭✭
    The queen is German send her home!
  • MuttleyMuttley ✭✭✭

    Agreed, Cougie. They slag off Corbyn for running an ineffectual campaign. When I saw him, he was quite straight: the EU isn't great and needs to change but the alternatives are worse, he said.

    I hope things don't get violent when most of the country realises they've been had.

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    The problem with Corbyn is he gives lengthy, reasoned arguments instead of just shouting slogans like Trump/Johnson/Farage.

  • MuttleyMuttley ✭✭✭

    Which is why he will never make a campaign leader. He's the engine room, not the chap on the bridge.

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Yeah...but who to replace him? They've got a tough job whoever it is.

    Sounds like we could be getting a general election sometime soon.


  • HappychapHappychap ✭✭✭

    I think things will get violent. Certainly for a time when the penny drops with a proportion of the leavers that they didn't vote for what they thought the did.  I can see civil unrest and racially motivated riots. Maybe even a resurgence of Brixton, Toxteth etc. 

    i still feel incredibly sad about this vote. Not least because I hoped the Britain of today was a generally peaceful and tolerant society that had genuinely begun to embrace a multicultural heritage. 

    Id hoped the racist and bigoted society I walked away from in the 1990's had made peace with change. But actually it's more hateful than ever. I've never been so ashamed to be British. 

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Yeah, I'm with you Happychap. It is depressing, but...there is obviously a massive social divide in this country which has been ignored and has now reached breaking point.

    I blame Thatcher. image

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Maybe Clegg isn't such a dumbarse after all.

    He wrote that last wednesday.

  • 24 hour media syndrome.

    If the politicians would behave more like mature responsible adults this would also help.

    If Remain had won a lot of the same stuff would have been stoked up just in reverse.

    eg 'I voted remain but now they've won and I wonder if I've missed a once in a lifetime chance to make the EU work better'.

    It would still have left 50% of the country unhappy and remember in England that % was a lot greater for leave whatever the inadequacy of the reasoning (there will have been many who voted remain for similar nonsense reasons.

    I read somewhere that only 31% of 18 - 24 year olds voted - can't find it now but if more of them had given a shit about their future then perhaps it would have been a different result.

    For me the reason Remain lost was simple - after 40 years of being in Europe none of the many politicians who backed Remain could actually stand up and articulate what being in Europe had done for us in a positive way.

  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    There's an FB page called Worrying Signs which has accumulated some instances of racial unpleasantness that people have experienced since the vote result. It's not nice. It's people of all races and nationalities being picked on. Not to say it's endemic, but some pretty shit people are feeling emboldened right now.

    Latest tee slogan - British porn for British people.

    Selling out fast.
  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Skinny - that's definitely part of the problem....the oldies vote...the young can't be arsed. I wonder what the turnout and result would be if there was a 2nd referendum.

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Also're right about the Remain side's arguments. All they went on about was the shit we would be in if we left, instead of the benefits we have got from being in. Things like EU funding, trade, peace etc.

  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    Thanks for that Muttley. It all seemed a lot funnier before the weekend. Still in a bit of denial I think. I'm not sure at what point I'm going to stop thinking "we've done fucking what?!!!" I'm going to miss John Oliver not doing the Bugle podcast anymore.
  • All is not lost for the 'Remain' camp.  Cameron, who really should shoulder the blame for this unnecessary debacle, did one canny thing - he resigned and left the incoming Tory leader to trigger 'Article 50'.

    The timeline for our departure from the EU cannot begin until 'Article 50' is put into operation.  This is a poisoned chalice that Cameron has passed to his successor, who is likely to be Boris Johnson.

    I honestly don't imagine Johnson having the bollocks to trigger the departure countdown, I'm pretty much convinced that he doesn't want to and remember Parliament has to ratify his decision with a vote.

    The European Parliament cannot force the UK to trigger 'Article 50' and the UK Government will not be in any hurry to start the clock on departure, knowing that it would consign the UK to irrevocable departure.

    I'm pretty much convinced there'll be a long period of stalemate, where like Schrödinger's Cat being both 'alive' and 'dead' at the same time - we'll be both 'in' and 'out' of Europe for a couple of years until a further referendum confirms our status within...

    Then again, I've always been a hopeless optimist and am still waiting for the train set my dad promised me for my 11th birthday

  • senidMsenidM ✭✭✭
    v good Muttley, but seems we are all Batshit crazy, certainly in the wonderful LB of Havering who voted well nigh 70/30 percent to leave.

    Its only my opinion, but I seem to be surrounded by a bunch of Batshit crazy rascists who have no real understanding of the mess they're going to cause and the fact that their ignorance of how the world really works means everything they think they voted for just won't happen.
  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Corinthian - there will be riots if they didn't actually do it. Plus, EU want us gone now.

  • I think it is a bit unfair to blame the young for not voting. The young have always not voted as much as the older generations, I didn't vote in a lot of elections when I was younger - because I didn't know who to vote for or had no trust in political system (still don't).

    Saying to the young its all your own fault forgets the fact we were all young once.

    Also spoke to close Spanish friends today who have been here for 15 years, working all the time, have two children born in this country. They are both upset/angry that half the population of this country basically don't want them here. Some of their work colleagues voted leave because of the immigrants, but say to them, oh but you're alright, its the others we don't like (meaning brown people and east Europeans)!
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