Are you and "in" or an "out"?

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  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭

    That last line is spot on Mr Worry!

    I heard a very reasonable guy at work talking to a Spanish woman at work, telling her how he was definitely voting leave.

    Not sure he picked up on her unspoken reaction!

  • Corinth, not seen you for a while, hi! image

    JT - loving the t-shirt ideas, especially the one about the extension image

    JT141 wrote (see)
    If I'm being patronising or dismissive or disrespectful of people's position on this it's because I've reached an impasse and I don't know what else I'm supposed to do. I am, and have, tried to engage and consider the opposing view and argument. But I keep finding empty rhetoric, poor reasoning, prejudice, misinformation, misunderstanding, vitriol. I don't know what else to do when faced with that. I'm told I should respect it, but respect what about it? I shouldn't tarnish things with the labels stupid or bigoted when under every consideration I can give some of this stuff is stupid and bigoted. I'm told it doesn't matter and move on, but it does matter. I'm told it's all relative and everything is as intellectually valid as everything else. Is it?
    Sometimes you've just got to call a duck a duck, no matter how many people have convinced themselves it's something else.

    i see the same. i have been trying to engage leavers by asking them perfectly politely why it does not seem to matter to them that they were lied to and basically been met with nationalistic, football hooligan responses. Not one person has tried to explain it at all or even acknowledge any form of betrayal or disappointment let alone in reasonable terms. Apart from the referendum itself, they seem to neither know not care what they won, only that they did win. a bit like having a wild  OTT celebration because your pub team beat another pub team. I have been looking for the people who voted to leave because they felt the EU was undemocratic or because of some red tape that hamstrung their business or because of some agricultural policy or some other reason with which I could sympathise and I have not found a single one.

    Not only  that that, but, once scratched, what is revealed below the surface every time is racism and xenophobia, accusations of foreigners ( for that  read Muslims) being  rapists and peadophiles and more.

    I have seen people told back to go their country. I have seen barely literate drivel. I have seen sneering, braying obnoxiousness that beggars belief.

    These people are ignorant beyond words, they are huge in number, probably the majority of those who voted to leave. I do believe they are stupid and I cannot and will not respect them.

     

     

     

     

     

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    I get told we'll be ok, because we're British.

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Scremapillar, I can sympathise. However we have to make allowances, much though it annoys us.

    An example from Blazing Saddles appears suitable,

    /members/images/493151/Gallery/blaz.jpg

     These are people of the land,

    The common clay of the new west,

    You know,

    Morons!

    🙂

  • MuttleyMuttley ✭✭✭

    Corrie, old boy ... Haven't seen you round these parts for a while. How are you doing?

  • The return of Corinthian is the only good thing to come out of this whole sorry mess.



    Are you King Arthur ?
  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    Under the new brexit apparently you're not allowed to call them shit brained pig ignorant fuckaninnys. It's PC gone mad. In fact "shit brained pig ignorant fuckaninny" is going to be a new tee.
  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    Northern Irish band. Van Morrison was in them.
  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Question. Are all those who voted 'remain' prophets? 

    Might also be an idea before some of you set about insulting the very people around you due to your perceived intellectual superiority over them, that maybe you're being a touch arrogant.

    After all, if you really did have all the answers, how is it you didn't predict the result?

    Potential chaos, perhaps.

    I'm sure if you have the intelligence you can gain something from this fiasco.

    It's not always someone else that is the problem. It's that situation where someone is ranting that their boss is an idiot.

    Well, if you're so clever, why are you working for them?

    🙂

  • Isn't it enough to have known that an exit vote would lead to chaos, confusion and damage to the country ?



    And as the Exit people didnt have any plans apart from win the vote - I don't see how relevant anyones lack of fortune telling is ?



    I mean i don't think anyone thought that the Brexiteers literally had no idea. If they had - would people still have voted for them ? Really ?
  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    Allow a little angry venomous insulting rant. I've done a fair bit of more considered posting and general irrelevant nonsense. I'm the metropolitan leftist elite you know, Yorkshire branch. I should make allowances to those not as terrific and clever as me. Bless em.
  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    "I'm the metropolitan leftist elite" is indeed our latest tee shirt.
  • MuttleyMuttley ✭✭✭

    Ric, was it not the Brexit camp that said we don't want to listen to experts, with their degrees and their organisations with their acronyms?

    We don't want to listen to people who might actually know what they're talking about?

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    It's  OK. Boris has a plan.

  • VDOT52VDOT52 ✭✭✭
    Big_G, that is a great read and Lonks nicely to an article I loved about Cameron quitting and saying 'why should I do all the hard shit?'



    Johnson and gove are slugs and slugs do not have backbones. If Farage didn't have his hand up their arses they couldn't even stand up. Twunts
  • jelly beanjelly bean ✭✭✭

    I read that article mentioned above and it reminded me of that scene in Jurassic Park where Bob Peck gets cornered by a couple of velociraptors.  Clever boy David.

    I wonder how/if Boris will exit politics without losing face.  Serious illness perhaps? 

  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    The issue of Brexit not invoking Article 50 keeps cropping up. Straight after the result John Redwood talked of an indefinite delay of applying it. He said something along the lines of "there are different kinds of leaving". Given he was an active part of the leave campaign I was quite shocked by that. What seems more obvious now is there is no definite plan of how to proceed. Also it seems pretty clear parliament and whitehall are absolutely shitting themselves about putting this through.



    Would the public allow the referendum result to be ignored? Depends how you sell it I suppose. If you can convince people it's a "kind of leaving", and we've beaten the EU, we showed em aren't we great. So long as everyone voting out isn't paying close attention (and God knows they weren't before), it's not as if Brexit hasn't already demonstrated it's ability to bluff with a very poor hand. Many have lost interest already so might not give a toss in a few months, let alone years. So long as people think they've won and got what they want, it doesn't matter whether they have or not.



    Would the EU go along with this? They would need absolute reassurance that we will not leave. Then it would be a balance. Are we more problematic as a member in this quasi state with all the instability and concessions, or more damaging to the EU if we go? I think we're baggage right now and they wont want anymore political slight of hand. They just want us gone.



    I believe Boris would survive a complete withdrawal from the EU even if the consequences for the country are bad and the promises don't come to fruition. You just lie. The time frame is such that it's possible to disconnect the actual leave vote from the consequences of it. If things go tit's up just blame something else. Keep blaming the EU. Turn it into the wolf at the door. They'll be no sense of self-reproach from most who voted leave. There wasn't much foresight. No reason to expect they'll be much hindsight. They might feel angry, but they were angry anyway. Brexit managed to manipulate, deflect and focus that anger onto other targets last time. Just do it again. If the political commentators and "so-called experts" hold you responsible, discredit them. Make them the liars, the real enemy. Burn those witches and the decent common sense folk will cheer at the pyre.
  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    It's ok, Boris will do our negotiating for us. I'm sure the EU will give him what he wants.

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    It's ok, Osborne is back!

  • I am not being arrogant Ric, I gave these people the benefit of the doubt, I still give those who voted to leave for good reason the benefit of the doubt (although I can't find them) but they fact is that, overall, this is the rule of the stupid. Wales and Cornwall wake up Friday morning suddenly remembering their dependence on EU farming subsidies and the 2nd referendum petition is started by a Brexiter who was expecting to be on the losing side - doh!

    But I do notice that you are posting different arguments at different times (you were taking about TV, mates, and short termism the other day) I know you do this to promote debate and that is not a bad thing but you should know that we know image 

    Meanwhile, racist and xenophobic incidents on the rise over the weekend, hooray, brave new world!

  • cougie wrote (see)
    The return of Corinthian is the only good thing to come out of this whole sorry mess.


    Too bloody right!

  • "Would the public allow the referendum result to be ignored? Depends how you sell it I suppose. If you can convince people it's a "kind of leaving", and we've beaten the EU, we showed em aren't we great. So long as everyone voting out isn't paying close attention (and God knows they weren't before), it's not as if Brexit hasn't already demonstrated it's ability to bluff with a very poor hand. Many have lost interest already so might not give a toss in a few months, let alone years. So long as people think they've won and got what they want, it doesn't matter whether they have or not." 

    Of course the leavers have actually lost, whether they realise it or not and it really seems they don't yet. The question is whether they ever do. As you say, it's how you sell it. In the next couple of years lots of things might happen.

    They could be terrible things  - and let's not go there.

    But you could have a change of government that starts to address some of the real issues - housing, school places, healthcare. You also have leavers that already regret the way they voted and I am pretty sure you will quite a few others trying to distance themselves from the other undesirables with whom they are currently bedfellows.If there was a generally more benign environment we could somehow worm our way out of it - the important thing is, would the EU go for it? It would be taking the utter piss from our point of view but it would be in their interests to say, "look, we worked this out, stronger than ever - waffle waffle... "

     

  • JT141 wrote (see)
    And here's another bit of propaganda from the lefty elitist intelligentsia -
    https://anewnatureblog.wordpress.com/2016/06/25/the-eu-referendum-turkeys-have-voted-for-christmas/

    Good article by the way. The other "N" word. Andrew Sayer's "Why we Can't Afford the Rich" needs to be on the school curriculum.

  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    How many Labour ministers and aides have gone now? I've lost count.



    This might all be decided by the civil service in the end. We might not logistically be able to leave. Ex senior Whitehall officials have already pointed they have nothing like the resources and people to do all the negotiations and address all the legislation issues. After few years of intensive recruitment and heavy investment maybe. You know all them bureaucrats in Brussels, cos of the bureaucracy. Who'd have thunk.



    There is a little bit of me that finds the panic in Westminster quite funny. I don't think it would be much worse if we'd have instructed them to invade Russia. At least that would be practically easier. I think they're hoping the country will turn around and say, "Gottcha! Had you going there didn't we!"



    New tee - I've fucked 65,107,978 people #sexybrexy

    Or - I fucked your mum (and your kids, and everybody else)
  • RicF wrote (see)

    Has anyone's life fallen through the floor yet because of this vote?

    Ok, I'm aware that anyone shifting money out of Sterling across the worlds ponds on Thursday night got buggered, but that's about it.

     

    When the FTSE crashed on Friday I reckon I lost about £10K (pension and ISA). It bounced back up a bit, but I'm still down about £7K.

    My brother put an offer in on a house a couple of weeks ago, buy he hasn't sold his own yet so he's now in a potentially difficult position.

    My friend's wife was verbally abused on Friday. Apparently she's "come over here" and "stolen" someone's job.

    My girlfriend's mother needs to go through the hassle and expense of applying for British Citizenship, otherwise she may get kicked out at some point in the not too distant future.

    But at least we got our sovereignty back.

     

    FWIW, I think we'll (eventually) end up in the EEA / EFTA. We'll still have free trade and free movement and things won't really be all that different. But the many years it's going to take to unravel all the current agreements and make new ones are going to be pretty rocky.

  • CorinthianCorinthian ✭✭✭

    Hello folks, thanks for the kind words.  Just passing through.

    I was wondering where I could find 'intelligent' debate on this issue, without recourse to silly name calling and mindless point scoring and have read through the thread and am not surprised to have found that sort of intelligent debate here (more or less).

    News from Corinth.   After 20 years living in Northumberland I've moved to Manchester and have started running again!   Which is the main reason I'm here.  Signed up for a couple of 10ks, my first in 5 years.

    Anyway, the debate.  I was torn between supporting the UK's attempt to remain in the corrupt, not very democratic, rich man's social club of the European Union or the 'leave' movement who did not seem to have a plan beyond telling a pack of lies to gain political advantage in the Tory leadership contest.  Certainly, no plan for what happens after in the event of a leave vote.  I was convinced that that old chancer Boris expected to lose, as did Gove, the other heavyweight careerist.  You only had to look at their faces the day after the leave vote was called to realise this.

    I eventually stuck my fingers down my throat and voted to stay in the EU.  For two reasons.  

    1.  Like it or not globalisation is not going to go away, neither will the free movement of labour - the UK needs immigration and immigrants to keep the economy strong (even most of the leavers know this).  Running a campaign to leave the EU on immigration was disingenuous 'dog whistle' politics of the worst kind.  If you're going to have the free movement of capital, you have to have the free movement of people.   I predict that immigration will not fall, there will be no caps on immigration beyond what we already have other than a flimsy points system that most immigrants we already import would pass anyway... unless the leavers wish to commit economic suicide.

    2. I could never support any campaign with Farage as a leading figurehead.  He's an unreconstructed racist knobhead of the first order.  With Nigel, what you see is what you get - he's a racist of the kind you'll find propping up most golf club bars up and down the land.   He proved that with his poster and now he's boosted by electoral success, you're going to see the real Nigel much more in evidence.

    So, I became a reluctant pro EU remain supporter 60/40...

    Now, I'm going to sit back and try to enjoy the chaos as the UK disintegrates - I hope nobody gets hurt.  As someone much cleverer than me said "Britain had a headache and to cure it has shot itself in the foot"

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    If we do end up in EEA or EFTA or whatever with free movement of capital and people, UKIP will certainly not go away, infact they will feel emboldened to keep going till they got what they want, complete independence and border controls.

    Also, I can't see other EU leaders agreeing to this.

    But. We'll see. 

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