Over 60's training (Part 2)

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  • Graham LGraham L ✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Mick, thanks for taking the trouble to reply so fully to my question. I think your point about tiring sooner is spot on and inevitable I suppose, no matter how fit and active one tries to be. As for your drawing, I still maintain that you need to have some natural ability to be able to produce results like that, although good teaching can obviously bring great improvements.

    TS, oh dear, not a great match for a toon fan. I hope your gandson still enjoyed himself. At least he saw some good football, even if the vast majority of it was from the visitors. I've seen a few home defeats this season but this is the first time we've just been played off the park from start to finish.

    My recovery from the groin strain is coming on nicely, touch wood. I've done a couple of 13 minute runs with virtually no discomfort. So I'm encouraged but still keeping to my careful plan of slowly increasing distances and only running every other day for another week or so. If all goes well my immediate target is to do a park run a week on Saturday, just taking part and getting round.

    I had a good cycle ride on Thursday. There was a strong westerly wind and the outward leg was right into it but the reward was a homeward stretch with the wind behind me and I sailed along mostly in top gear. Most exhilarating. 25 miles done without being too uncomfortable on the saddle.



  • Ray A2Ray A2 ✭✭✭
    Graham,not a good result yesterday I hope we don't go the same way later today.Good news on the injury front,i hope it continues to progress.

    Mick,Really good drawings I find it hard to do a matchstick man.Just ordered the Garmin 235 and should be here tomorrow,just another toy for me to play with.

    Done a 14mile run on my own yesterday at around 9:40 pace,just so nice to run in sunshine.
  • MIck
    very good progress indeed on the hands. Well done
    I hope the studio was warm enough for the models given the temperatures outside otherwise it could lead to some distortion of anatomical parts!!
    It was so warm here today we had lunch outside in the sunshine and listened to the frogs doing what frogs do in the pond!!  10 have arrived overnight............

    Graham
    it was a super day out and my g'son thoroughly enjoyed himself despite the result - it doesn't matter quite as much at that age!1
    Both his Dad and I agreed that we could have done a better job in midfield even now than anyone on the Toon team - they were that bad :(

    On the way back to the station we were  bumped into by a couple of guys hurrying to the Metro. They apologized profusely and I said "that's fine, no problem". One then turned round again and said "anyway congratulations, you were much better than us today" and shook my hand!!
    I replied "sorry to dissuade you but we were supporting the same team as you"
    "Oh man, said he" how embarrassin. I canna believe what I have just done. Just wait until I tell my missus, she's ganna kill me" We all had a a good laugh  - best thing to come out of the match!!!

    Nice bike ride and good progress on the injury - just gan canny

    Ray
    sounded like a good day out - it really was warm out there today

    I went off for a 9 miler but stopped after 2.5 miles and walked/ran back very slowly as I had absolutely no energy or strength in my legs.
    To compensate I decided to wash the cars and have put my back out - bl**dy painful, but  some Ibuprofen and red wine have taken the edge off the pain now.


  • Mick6Mick6 ✭✭✭
    Thanks for the encouragement on my drawing, it helps.

    TS,
    I like your new avatar, you look like you could run fast.
    Odd attempted run. I often feel the effects of a previous day's effort but never to the point that I need to walk. Do you think you have caught something?

    Interesting behavior from my 235 today. I was forced onto the treadmill as it was frigid outside and I ran a progressive 8k feeling strong around an avg of 9:00 miles.
    The 235 uses a learned stridelength from your outdoor runs to calculate your pace and distance. As I warmed up my stridelength increased and my cadence dropped.

    The 235 measures cadence accurately no matter indoor or out, assuming you don't hold your arms still.
    The 235 showed my stridelength as only increasing by a small amount, resulting in a shorter distance than the treadmill but even worse a slower pace.
    Now treadmills can be a bit off but not much.
    The treadmill was 5 miles exactly when I stopped my 235 so these were my results.

     235
    average pace 9:35 per mile over 4.7 miles

    Treadmill
    average pace 9:04 per mile over 5 miles.

    I am running faster on the treadmill so my stridelength will be longer than outside. I expect my runs outside to pick up with the warmer weather, whenever it arrives so then I expect the 235 to more reflect the treadmill results.
    It is something to watch for if you use the 235 inside.

    Unfortunately despite what the app states, you cannot enter a stridelength for use indoors, not sure why, it would seem easy to programme.

    Mick
  • good morning

    Mick
    that is strange data - and as you say the margin of error is quite significant. Could it be that the increased pace is not reflected in the Garmin data because the belt on the treddie confers a marginal, but significant advantage as it gets faster - ie the road is slipping by under your feet a bit without the stride length increasing?

    Not sure what happened - I have only ever stopped once or twice before when out running - and I can't check it out as my back is too painful!!

    I have lost, or more accurately, failed to download from my back up file, most of my running photos so that one will have to do for now. I was not quite the racing snake profile - more the sprinter of old - and I think I frightened that guy I was overtaking at the end of the local 10K race!!!

    Sad news that Ed Whitlock died yesterday.
    Prostate cancer - and so soon after setting yet another marathon age record back in October for the marathon. Classic quote about him

    "I remember Ed got up to speak—all 110 pounds of him—and in his typical modest style he said, “I don’t really know what to say. I don’t have a coach. I don’t have a manager or an agent. I don’t have any commercial endorsements. I don’t really have a training program. I just like to go out to run.

    Remember that folks - it's all about the running :)

  • Mick6Mick6 ✭✭✭
    TS,
    Sad news about Ed Whitlock.

    Forced inside again today so I thought I would experiment. I ran 8k on a different manufacturer's treadmill with very different results.
    My cadence still dropped off a bit but not as much as yesterday as I did try to maintain it.
    I stopped my garmin 235 when the treadmill said I had run 5 miles and surprise surprise the garmin read 8.02k. The average pace was exactly the same, 5:52 per km or 9:13 per mile.
    So it would appear that the treadmill is the cause of the error and not the garmin.
    I knew that the pace on treadmills can be a bit off but I did not think that it was this off.

  • Ray A2Ray A2 ✭✭✭
    Sad news about Ed Whitlock.

    TS,really hope your back is not to bad.


    Last nights track session was 2 sets of 4x600 with 200 recovery and 400 recovery between sets.Had my new garmin 235 for this session so will try to give a few more stats.


    Lap      pace    avhr    maxhr   average cadence    average stride length of workout
     2.33    6.56     118    132           191                               1.10
     2.32    6.47     131    140           192
     2.32    6.43     136    143           191
     2.33    6.46     137    143           188
     2.28    6.38     136    145           192
     2.27    6.24     138    147           192
     2.28    6.37     139    146           190
     2.45    7.11     138    169?          184 as you can see I was done for on this rep.
    Was really happy with the new watch so far. 
  • john bateman 6john bateman 6 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Apologies for absence. I've been the victim of a rather strange website bug in that all my text on this thread has been corrupted by a line being drawn through it (sometimes in red). I didn't want to inflict this on you so have been restricting myself to contributing on our sister, Mature runners, thread where the problem does not manifest itself. Strange, and a bit like being back at school with a line through your homework - but without the word 'rubbish!' attached on this occasion.

    I note that TS and Mick have not set-aside their fondness for data while I've been gone. And I further note that Brighton and Newcastle are still locked in battled for supremacy while England's rugby team have less of a battle unless ambushed by the Irish on Saturday.

    Running-wise nothing much to report other than that I entered a local 10k/5k event on a whim last week, and thinking that the 5k was for softies (it wasn't, looking at some of the times) plumped for the 10k - and managed a category win in 45.51. This was a bit slow and the garmin-heads at the finish were convinced that the course was 'long' (just as apparently the recent Brighton half-marathon was 'short'). Either way it's a bit annoying (and not unlike Mick's two treadmills!) but I was very happy to take my trophy and place it with great care in my cabinet...........wherein I found Lord Lucan in hiding and undisturbed since the early 70s.

    This weekend I'm doing a bit of parkrun tourism as I'm down in Devon and returning via the New Forest where there's a very pretty course apparently.

    Finally, I too read the tributes to Ed Whitlock. What a man!

  • good morning

    John
    welcome back  I was just checking to see what colour line the strikethrough button from the menu above produced but it would appear to be black!!!
    The 10K looked to be a bit short, not to mention downhill, from your time ;)
    Well done on the AG win - and a trophy to boot!!
    Diana, who posts here on occasion, is a New Forest parkrunner so you could look out for her - if you knew what she looked like!!!
    After witnessing the display at first hand on Saturday I have to say the supremacy battle may be more on paper than on the pitch!!
    The rugby is another tale - and great quantities of beer and pork pies will be required for this Saturday.

    Mick
    so I can diagnose from 4,000 miles away - impressive or what?!!!
    I have seen on the news the snow storms that have hit the USA but Canada didn't get a mention, probably because it is considered normal where you are!

    Ray
    impressive data set - and even more impressive times. Average pace is very credible indeed when it starts with a 6 for so many reps. You are due a very fast 5K time on those figures and your endurance runs - sub 21 for sure.
    Good to hear that the new Garmin performed well. Was that just using the wrist HR reader?

    I went out this morning as my back was crying out for some release but I was not sure what to expect after my aborted run on Sunday.
    Same thing really - after 2 miles I felt really quite weak and just staggered on back home but at least I avoided walking - just!

    4 miles in 39:43 (9:56 m/m) tells its own story 
    9:28
    9:13
    9:47
    11:12  Hipps Hill

    as do the splits indicating the progressive tail off
    I feel fine otherwise - just can't do it. Must need more beer!!!
  • Ray A2Ray A2 ✭✭✭
    John
    Welcome back and a good time and category win.

    TS
       Yes the wrist HR it was.
  • Graham LGraham L ✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Mick, you deserve some decent weather. Hope it comes your way soon. You must be fed up with the cold.

    Ray, a very good sequence of 600s. No surprise you were tiring by the last one. I might have matched those times, or at least got near them, back in November before my lay-off but they'd be way beyond me now and no doubt for some time to come. Keep up the good work.

    TS, sorry about your back and the disappointing run on Sunday. Frustrating for you yet again.

    John, unless the 10K course was quite hilly I'd be inclined to believe those who were saying the course was long. Based on your recent 5K times I'd expect you to do 44 minutes or a bit under. Well done on your category win.

    After a rather windy 31 mile bike ride yesterday I did the first of my three 20-minute runs this morning. 2.3 miles at an average 8:46 pace. It felt hard work though and once again I'm struck by how much fitness I lose after two or three months away from running. Only the slightest sensation from the groin though so certainly no complaints.
  • Mick6Mick6 ✭✭✭
    Graham,
    Good to see you getting back to your old ways. Yes, I would like to see some warmer running days.

    TS,
    Does it have anything to do with your back?
    The snow storm hit us as well, we have 22cm of the white stuff with high winds and cold temperatures, needless to say I ran indoors again.
    I ran on the same treadmill as before and achieved consistent results.

    09:46 AM Thursday, March 16, 2017
    Treadmill6k, felt strong no issues
    Run Duration = 34:19,  Run Length = 6.0 Kms or 3.7 Miles
    Average Run Pace = 05:46 per Km, 09:17 per Mile, Age grade =  62.4 %
    Average Run WHR = 80.2 %,  Max Run WHR = 87.4 %
    Average Run Cadence = 86.5, Average stride length = 1.00 m
    Lap  Duration   Kms      Miles    Per Km    Per Mile   MPH      AWHR     MWHR   Cadence  Slength(m)
     01     06:06     1.0        0.6      06:06      09:49     06.1     71.1%     75.6%       86.0        0.95
     02     05:43     1.0        0.6      05:43      09:12     06.5     76.3%     77.8%       87.0        1.01
     03     05:39     1.0        0.6      05:39      09:06     06.6     79.3%     80.7%       87.0        1.02
     04     05:39     1.0        0.6      05:39      09:06     06.6     82.2%     83.7%       87.0        1.02
     05     05:41     1.0        0.6      05:41      09:09     06.6     85.2%     86.7%       86.0        1.02
     06     05:31     1.0        0.6      05:48      09:20     06.4     87.4%     87.4%       86.0        1.00

    Ray,
    Well done on the 600s and mastering your 235.

    Mick
  • Ray A2Ray A2 ✭✭✭
    Graham,
                 Thanks for your kind words.I hope you have no more problems with your groin, always hard getting back after a layoff.

    Mick,
          Hope the weather is kinder for you soon.Decent treadmill workout always good to feel strong. Getting on okay with the 235 watch but I am not sure I believe the V02 Max49 or the race predictor element.

    Run tonight was 6miles with middle 4 at 8mm.
    Mile   AVHR    MAXHR    CADENCE    AV SL
    9:37    109       133             181         1.07
    8:00    115       123
    7:54    125       130
    7:55    127       132
    7:44    115       132
    8:33    115       151
  • Hi

    well spring didn't last long - rain, a bit of sleet and a biting wind- nearly as bad as Mick ;)

    Graham
    nice steady comeback. Your fitness will come back quite quickly once you can up the training a bit. 8:45 may be  a bit quick at first!!
    Good news from the groin!!

    Ray 
    I think the HRM is playing porkie pies with you - your penultimate lap was the fastest and your AVHR dropped by 12 bpm over the other, slower miles?
    Still a very good pace overall despite what the HRM said

    Mick
    Good to see you on your accurate treddie!! Very consistent pace there so it's looking good for whenever you finally get back outside.
    My back went after the tired run on Sunday so I don't think they are connected. It's just a feeling of general fatigue in the legs - my breathing is unaffected.

    Did an easy 2.3 miles this morning in 22 min - except it didn't feel easy!!
  • Mick6Mick6 ✭✭✭
    Tough week for me with all the snow and cold. I managed 5 runs 3 of them on the treadmill though. I managed 12k today in much better weather.

    I did some interesting drawing of hands and feet using different media.

    Graphite, pastel, coloured pencil, vine charcoal and conte. It is very difficult to get any detail with some of them but a good training session. 
    It was interesting to ask people what they prefered.


  • MIck

    top left is best -if you coloured black a few toe nails it could be my foot - my toes are that misshapen!!

    I hope the foul weather has finally passed you by - we currently have 40mph+ winds, rain and hail - and sun!! lovely.

    eased out for a longer run 5.25 miles in 50:19 (9:34m/m) 
    09:58
    09:00
    09:22
    09:19
    10:35
    02:05

    and sort of got over the fatigue point be running very gently over the first two miles.

    Disappointing rugby result yesterday - England had no answer to the smother tactics of Ireland and were second best all over the pitch. Left a couple of pork pies uneaten........
  • John
    its getting to be squeaky bum time in the football promotion stakes :)
    As I said earlier it will all be down to who can haul tired bodies and minds over the line in the next few games....................
  • Mick6Mick6 ✭✭✭
    TS,
    Your second mile was the quickest so not too gently.

    I thought you might be interested in the musings of someone with too much free time.
    I have 11 years of detailed running data in my log and it is very easy for me to view the entire log on a single window.
    There appeared an obvious correlation between the average weekly mileage and my best AG % results in any year. 
    A simple regression analysis yielded a coeff of determination of 0.94 which is very high indication that it is possible to predict your race AG % from your average sustained weekly mileage with a high degree of accuracy.
    This seems to support the notion that weekly sustained mileage is key to race results at least at this level.



  • Mick
    half of mile 2 was downhill and with a following wind!!!

    So to paraphrase only slightly the golfer Gary Player - "the more I practice the faster I get"  :)

    Certainly true over all distances from 1500m upwards.

    Wind has finally eased here after a very wild day indeed. The front lawns look like they are covered in snow as so much blossom has been stripped off the cherry trees!!
  • ColumbaColumba ✭✭✭
    I bethought me to have another look at this thread (and the "Mature Runners" thread), and find I've missed lots of posts. This is because I'm not getting "notifications" - but thank you TS for the suggestion to look at my profile, I'll see if I can change things from there.
    Continuing to increase run distance by way of adding on a few minutes each time I run. 57 minutes today. All run:walk, 3 mins: 1 min. What you said is very encouraging, Mick. I am following the Chi running based principles, which has entailed changing my gait to some extent, and changing the way I walk and even stand.
    Last weekend I was in Bristol and Bath, as my Youngest Son, and his fiancee, and my Elder Daughter were all running the Bath Half. I've done it twice before. It was almost as much fun supporting as running it... But not quite. The race involves two laps, and they are long narrow laps, along the river, over a bridge and back again - this meant that by shuttling to and fro across another bridge I could in theory see (and cheer on) each of them 4 times. Didn't quite work out like that, but I did see them a few times.  
  • Lots of activity on this thread of late.

    Mick - like the drawings. Think I agree with TS on my preference.

    TS - agree on the football. I think it might well go to the wire. It's which team can hold its nerve. By the way I believe that Chris Hughton is doing the Brighton marathon. As for the rugby, I kind of expected an Irish ambush.

    Columba - Bath  must be a lovely place to run. I think they do a triathlon there too.

    Graham - really good to hear that you are on the way back to running again. It's a lovely feeling when start to get your fitness back. Have you any targets or is it too early?

    I did my parkrun tourist thing on Saturday and turned up to Moors Valley which is just outside Ringwood in the New Forest. A truly lovely course I must say. A little undulating but other than that (and a congested start) pretty fast. I managed a 21:45 which earned me 26th place out of 336 - unexpectedly good. I also nicked a category win although there was a 65-69 who beat me quite easily.
    Managed a rather creaking 6 miles this morning.
  • good morning

    Columba
    that is an impressive step (small though each one is) up in both distance and time
    Sounded hard work keeping up with the race - you could almost have done it!!
    I started getting notifications, even though I had not selected the option, and they stopped as suddenly as they started once I reset my profile

    John
    that was a very productive spell away!!  Impressive time and also good to run over a new course - the undulations must have come as a shock to you :)
    these ol' gadgies do turn up in inconvenient places!!

    Wind had abated a bit this morning and was replaced with driving rain!!
    Same 5.25 miles as yesterday in 49:17 (9:22m/m) so whatever it was that was affecting me appears to be slowly easing.

    09:35  160  172
    08:56  132  136
    09:08  129  140
    08:59  133  141
    10:21  141  149
    02:18  139  141

    I tried out the HRM to see what was ailing me and surprise, surprise it actually worked after a very dodgy first mile. True avHR overall was probably about 132  with a max of 149 on Hipps Hill which felt about right - so I am slowly getting back to normal
  • *** still don't know what these mean but I see we are all now promoted to that rank!!
  • TS - am in Norwich today: 'very flat, Norwich' as I believe Noel Coward said. Shame for me, then, that I won't be running here. I've also come up with a solution to your problem: simply don't run the first mile - start at mile 2 and add another one at the end!
  • Mick6Mick6 ✭✭✭
    TS,
    if you check your profile by clicking on your name you will see that you have received a load of badges, a bit like when your kids were in primary school and got gold stars for doing nothing. I suspect that these are linked to the stars you have.
    What I found amusing about yours was you had one called ancient membership !!
    You also had a post about you being photogenic, do we get a vote on that?

    John,
    Sub 22 is a great time, I can vaguely remember being in the 60-64 range. My goal back then was sub 1:40 for the half, which I did manage.

    9.2k for me today in much better conditions, still needed long pants and a jacket. Put in 6 pickups in the 400 to 800 range at 8:30ish pace so happy with that. It is interesting to note that my right knees feels so much more comfortable when I am running at pace rather than just shuffling along.

    Mick
  • *** still don't know what these mean but I see we are all now promoted to that rank!!
  • that's funny - I also get to post things twice!!

    John
    I used to hate the  drive to Norwich. It always took forever and one was always in danger of a tractor and trailer lumbering off a field in the gloom to block the road!!
    I'll take up your suggestion next time

    Mick
    well done on getting outside!
    Like me, you have a pace and comfort zone where everything feels in tune 

    "Photogenic" is not a term I would ascribe that photo to!!! Scary ol'git perhaps particularly for the guy I am overtaking :)

    I guess Ancient just about describes me - I started on the thread in mid/end 2005 just before I ran the BM half marathon in the January and remember feeling disappointed with a 1:31. I had wanted to break 1:30 as I had with the first HM I had run 25 years before then.
    If only I had known then what was to come I may have been satisfied..............................
  • Graham LGraham L ✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    John, yes, far too early to have any targets apart from getting fit again and staying free of injury!! I'm talking about time targets though. More immediately I hope to do a park run this Saturday and, if all goes well, take part in a 10K on Easter Sunday which I entered way back in October. Pace immaterial. If I finish both unscathed I'll have got some confidence back and will take it from there. Very wary about pushing too hard though, whatever happens.

    Columba, what a shame you couldn't run the half yourself. Supporting is better than nothing but so frustrating when you're dying to run too. 

    Another 20 minute run tomorrow and, hopefully, a 25 minute one on Thursday. My stepdaughter and I did a very windy, and quite hilly, 30 mile bike ride yesterday. It took it out of both of us. Unfortunately the cafe I'd planned to have lunch at was closed, even though I'd checked on its website. A proper break would have made all the difference. After that we were tempted to just press on as it had started to rain and probably overdid it a bit. Cycling can be quite unforgiving.
  • TS - I've rather enjoyed my meander around the mean streets of Norwich. I have never seen so many churches (and big churches at that) in such a small area. I was wandering aimlessly along a road, looked up and saw a blue plaque - of which there is no shortage - and then noticed that it featured the maiden name (which is very distinctive) of Mrs JB. Turned out he, the subject, was an artist of some distinction. Conclusion: Mrs JB married beneath her, both in terms of height and social class!

    Graham - very sensible strategy. You might have to consciously hold yourself back

    I've noted that that the 10K I did has got a 'NAD' next to it on Power of Ten. I'm guessing that this means Not Accurate Distance.

    Got the nightmarish prospect of getting across London in the rush hour. I used to do this every day, but now it fills me with horror!
  • good day

    Graham
    you are doing very well on the bike!!
    Bit rough looking forward to a cafe break and then finding it closed :/

    John
    yup Norwich is very picturesque although York can probably give it a good run in terms of church numbers as well as a rather more impressive cathedral.
    Related by marriage to the Norwich School of Painters eh?  You need to start practicing and give Mick a run for his money :)
    One can soon get out of the habit of London!!  Unfortunately one of my clients has just contacted me about a new project there.................

    Last night brought 6 miles on the Hash fortunately in a cold, crisp weather window and mainly on the rather more forgiving terrain of Knaresborough so it didn't quite wipe me out although the bellringing practice sounded ominous at one stage!!

    Eased out his morning in between rainstorms and did the usual 5.25 miles in 50:00 min exact (9:29m/m) 
    10:17  getting rid of last night's stiffness
    09:06
    09:05
    09:05
    10:17  Hipps Hill
    02:10
    I was actually quite pleased I could manage to maintain such an even pace, admittedly over the flatter part of the course, and even got up Hipps Hill without too much discomfort so the mysterious lurgy would appear to have ebbed away
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