Hitting the wall in a marathon.

MrSoft

I have a couple of friends who are new to marathon running who are aiming for a 4 hour marathon in April. I've tried to advice them that they need to run some of their long runs at slower than MP to help train the body to be more efficient with burning energy.  They both have done long runs with runners quicker than them and run 30 secs quicker than MP during a 16 mile run.  

Are they heading towards hitting the wall in their marathon  if they do their long runs at MP or Quicker?  

senidM

If they think 16 miles is a long run then yes, they will probably come unstuck at about 22.

They need to be running 20s at this stage, which may give them a taste of how their bodies start to really struggle to cope at this distance.

Then they may see the point of LSRs at MP + 1minpermile.

Its a classic mistake which ends in "my training was great but just fell apart on the day" because they had run their marathon weeks before in training.

MrSoft

I think the plan is they do a few 18's and 20 miles but my concern is they will try to run these at MP or quicker and that these will be over 60% of their weekly miles for a week.  

Cheerful Dave

If they can run 16 miles at 30s per mile quicker than 4 hour pace then I'd suggest that 4 hours is a little on the safe side as a target time.  3:45 might be closer to the mark, but they need to slow down the longer runs, especially the 20 mile ones.  They'll get more benefit running slowly for 3 and a half hours than they will running MP for 3.

Sol2

Plenty of guys (and gals) at my club are doing 20 mile long runs off 30 mile weeks at around MP.  Shorter club runs are always way faster than MP. 

They don't understand why their wheels fall off from mile 18-20 and end up walking. They also bemoan the fact that they haven't improved in years.... 

DT19

It's a classic mistake even for experiences runners,but they haven't tried to understand the basics of aerobic training. 

I would agree that if they can go 30 seconds per mile fasther than MP for 16 miles (which on paper would be closer to threshold pace)  then mp is set low.

It's probably the most spoken sentence in the days after a marathon...'i was on for sub xxx until 20 miles but then....' 

cougie

We see this SOOOOO many times on the forum. People race their long runs and can't get near their pace in the race itself.

Have they done any half marathon races ? Thats the best way to judge what they can expect.

Without that we don't know if they are overdoing it or they are easily capable of sub 4. 

MrSoft

I think they are around the 1.48 - 1.52 for half marathons but I have kept an eye on their 16 mile runs on  strava and their pace drops by a minute per mile in the last 3 miles.  

senidM

  looks like classic cases of 1st timers syndrome, yes they should be sub 4, but my moneys on 4 1/2 after a crash & burn at about 21.

You can always have the pleasure of an I told you so, I'm sure it will be appreciated.

MrSoft

I won't get any satisfaction if they do have a horrible last 6 miles because it will probably mean they will be put off from doing another.  And I do worry about how they will both pace their first half of the race  I fear they will get excited and go off too fast. 

Cheerful Dave

On the plus side Mr S, if they run the first 16 miles like their training runs they might not be too far off 4 hours, albeit with a big positive split.  Maybe they'll then realise you're not talking out of your arse and there's a reason for their 10 miles of hell, in which case they might yet do another.

senidM

Don't worry MrSoft, my first London, crashed at Blackfriars, limped in for a 4.45, swearing never again.

20 Londons later....... plus about 10 others, peaked at 3:03, but still running them and hoping for a sub 40 at Halstead in May (gives me a GFA place if I want it).

So even a disaster isn't always all bad, as long as you learn from it.

Pete Holt

its just as likely that they will start too quickly and not eat enough fuel in the morning causing a crash at 21 miles. #marathonshurt

PaulMarsh

When I'm doing a distance run and start to feel fatigued, I have to slow down, once I do this, the energy I have remaining will go further. Only way to get used to this is train until you hit the wall and keep running after that, then at least you know what to expect and how long you can keep going after this - if you can.

Last Sunday, did a good fell run, and around 20 odd miles, I was feeling it. I knew I can just keep going, but my body felt so drained and so hungry, a deep hunger, and getting colder. Not nice, but if doing such distances, is part of the experiance.

cougie

If you fuel and pace properly - there should be no need to ever hit the wall.

Sol2

Send them this link for a solid read. Might knock some sense into them. 

https://forums.runnersworld.co.uk/discussion/166480/training-for-the-right-distance

MrSoft

Seems as though one is seemingly open to run some of his 18 and 20 mile runs slower, although his training is a bit all over the place.  He seems to be doing 1 long run a week and doing two 5k runs at close to all out.  I do worry that he hasn't done enough miles and not got the accumulated fatigue you need in marathon training.