5k race pacing problem

KATJH

When I race- The first mile is always easy no matter what pace I run and then shortly after the mile mark the dificulty goes from moderate to insane... i'd like to bring my splits closer together so I can run faster overall but I dont know how..

If i run the first mile hard, the next 2.1 will be 20/30sec per mile slower.
If i run the first mile moderate and try to keep an even pace- my pace for the next 2.1 will be the same as if i'd ran the first mile hard although. Basically i get no denefit from taking the first mile easier.
For example my last race splits were
6:42
7:13
7:17
(Not counting the 0.1 which was then a sprint)
Even if i had ran the first mile say 7:05 i wouldnt be able to gain any speed for the next two.
Is this a problem and how do I sort this out?

Tommo81

The first things that come to my mind are 1) what does your training look like? Are you training speed endurance as well as aerobic long runs?  2) Even in that 'slower' first mile, could you still be rushing off & getting into oxygen debt (which then makes the rest of the run even more difficult and might help explain those splits)?

Do you run with Heart-rate monitor? That info might also help explain what is happening. 

KATJH

I never run by HR, always by feel.
Breathing never requires much effort until past the mile mark and then suddenly gets hard. Maybe i lack endurance

My training is mixed and always by feel but here's how it's been lately:
Sunday: 3.5 miles moderate (8:30 pace) then 10x60m sprints
Monday: rest
Tuesday: 5 miles easy/moderate (8:45 pace)
Wednesday: 5k time trail
Thursday: rest
Friday: 3.5 mile moderate/hard (8:00 pace)
Sat: rest
Sunday: 5 miles mod

Week 2
Monday: 2.5 miles easy (9:15 pace) plus easy 20 min bike ride
Tuesday: rest
Wednesday: 4 miles easy/moderate
Thursday: 1 mile time trail
Friday: active rest (20 min intense bike ride)
Sat: 7 miles easy/moderate with random sprints thrown in when i felt like it
Sun: not decided yet :P

KATJH

Maybe im lacking in a nutrient or something... Would that be a possibility? Im 22 years old and a girl, i heard a lot of young female runners struggle with iron

Chris2304

Interesting question. My first thoughts are that perhaps your VO2 max is good, but aerobically you might be weak. Your training certainly has a lot of speed stuff in there - lots of short sprints - and the longer stuff seems quite intense too. Id suggest adding a mile or two to your runs and dropping some of the short sprints might help with your aerobic base. Running them slower & longer will help a lot, I suspect.

Also, if you like intervals/speed work, why not add in some longer intervals, like a 5 x 1k session with 90 sec rest, or even 3 x 2k with a 3min jog recovery.

Good luck.

Tommo81

I agree with Chris. If that were my schedule I'd look at doing a longer slow run at aerobic pace & work on speed endurance like the 5x1000m. There's also no lactate threshold training. Whilst I don't think it's the no.1 focus for a 5k it might help with clearing away some of the lactate after a fast start. Look at a book like Pfitzinger's Faster Road Racing to get an explanation of all the sports science along with training plans. His don't really look like yours. 

Also I'd recommend going to the training pace calculator on Greg Macmillan's website. Put in a recent race time & get a ballpark idea of what training paces you should be doing. 

Sub17ParkRun

You are racing 5km. You want to do more speed work to run fast for 5km
If you want to run a HM or Marathon, plodding more miles to build aerobic fitness to run for a very long time is the best way to go.
Your training should be specific to your race distance.

KATJH

I overtrained last year, lost too much muscle and was competely out of running for about 8 months and very ill because i get pretty obsessive so i dont want to do too much at once this time.

Quite a lot of people i have asked (both on here and letsrun) have all pointed to improving aerobically/building an aerobic base But im a noob and i don't even know what that means and when i asked last time i didnt get a reply.
How exactly would i improve myself areobically? Because im the type of person that of you name the training i will do it.

I eventually want to move back up to racing 10k (which i did before i got sick last year- most likely due to attempting to race a half marathon when i had hardly trained completely depleting my body)

This time i have learnt from my mistake because it made me ill and nearly put my out of running. Dont do too much too soon. Literally ALL of my runs for three years straight were tempo runs. (3 - 5) times a week with occasional time trails. Which now i realise, is fucking ridiculous and NOT maintainable. ONLY LATELY have i mixed it up doing easy runs, sprints, moderate runs, etc.
so i feel like i am training smarter. I just need help learning how to build a base because quite clearly, i have done everything but that.

KATJH

Also when i do easy runs it feels like i am de-training my body.... Is that a mental barrier I need to over come? Or does it actually detrain your body but you make up for it during speed sessions?

Chris2304

Don't worry - it's a very common issue. Most of your running should be easy - around 70%-75% of your max heart rate. It will feel slooooooooooow at first. Old ladies with zimmer frames will walk past you, snails will leave you in their wake. Most of all, your ego will be bruised. But persevere with it.

This will have two main benefits: (1) You will find that you are not so tired/sore, which means you can hit your speed/interval sessions even harder and recover better from them. (2) Over time you'll find that your aerobic capacity has taken a step-forward and you can run a lot faster for a lot longer generally.

KATJH

Thank you. I have been incorprating slower runs into my routine at about 9 - 10 minute mile but my only problem with that is that because physiologically i am not used to this pace- the last time i ran at those paces was during my first year of running- that going back to them and TRYING to run slower feels awkward and uncomfortable for my hips.

KATJH

The niggling hip pain which only happens during runs 9mm+ is my only issue here. Maybe it is an issue that needs addressing or maybe it is an issue that will resolve itself as i get used to the pace?
Even at a 9 -10 minute mile i feel like im getting a decent workout. 9-10 minute mile is exactly where my easier relaxed runs should be cardio wise.

James7

Best piece of advice I can give is to get a copy of Running Formula by Jack Daniels. It's all in there. You can learn a lot through googling and piecing things together yourself, and that's really useful, but if you want one place that lays it all out, that's what I'd recommend.

It was only when I read what slow/easy running actually does in your body that I realised it has its own benefits, it's not a second-best, better-than-nothing thing. Look it up - capillaries, mitochondria, oxygen pathways, heart stroke volume, fuelling from fat, joint/bone strength...

KATJH

I have read about the benefits of doing these runs which is why i have since lately incorporated them into my routine but what im finding hard right now is getting the pacing right on them. I often think "am i going too fast" or "am i going too slow" and i have all these niggling pains and it just doesnt feel right ... I am Aware that a good portion of my problem is mental here.

I really think i need a coach but i just simply cannot afford one. I am young and broke which sucks. Maybe i would be more well up on this is i ran in high scool where coaching is normally free and you learn and adapt from a young age but that is "what could have been" thinking... Lol

My main problem IS trying to convert my body into burning fat but my body does NOT adapt well in that sense at all. My metabolism is DIRE, I cant seem to gain significant muscle to save my life dispite eating 130+g of protein a dayweighing 115lbs and supplementing with straight training exercises. my body fat is high for my weight (23%). But Metabolic disorders are common in my family and i do have thyroid problems which may cause this and predispose me to these struggles. This is one of the main reasons i want to build an aerobic base, because it might help my metabolism.

KATJH

If i ran in high school*

KATJH

Strength training exercises* god damn... My phone feels the need to correct everything i say and yet somehow make it INcorrect LOL.

Cheerful Dave

Obvious question I know, but what sort of warm up are you doing before these races?

KATJH

Just a walk.

Cheerful Dave

Well, amidst all this talk of mitochondria and VO2max, that might be the simple answer to your problem.  Lack of a warm up would be a good reason why you can't sustain your initial pace (whatever it is) and fall back to a 'default' pace after a mile.  Try a warm up run of a good 1.5, 2 miles or so, easy pace with some quicker race pace strides of 100m or so towards the end.

NickW2

KATJH - easy running should feel easy. If going slowly feels just as hard, it might be that you're changing your running style so although you are moving more slowly, it's just as much effort? You're certainly not alone, it's something a lot of runners struggle with. I got into running nearly 2 years ago and initially never understood the point of running slowly, then when I got my head round it still found it difficult as like you it didn't seem to feel much easier. However I stuck with it and seem to have got the hang of it now, it feels a bit more natural. I just try not to force the pace at all, and regularly "check" on myself that I'm at conversational pace, and not working too hard.

hillstrider

You said that you couldn't afford a Coach, but have you considered joining a running club? Most clubs cater for all abilities, from beginners to experienced faster runners. As other posters have said, it is important to have rest days, and recovery runs should be at approximately 2 minutes per mile slower than race pace.

Geek

Re. pace setting, we are developing a new running app that tells you regularly through your headphones whilst running, how far ahead or behind you are compared to previous 5k runs (e.g. you are 20m ahead of your previous run). If you want to try it, let us know (hello@geekbeach.com). It's still in open beta testing mode but you or anyone else is welcome to give it a go. Any feedback would also be appreciated.

KATJH

2 minites behind race pace? My race pace is 7.00 pace and my usual recovery runs are 9:30 mile pace. 9.00 feels more like a moderate workout as opposed to easy or recovery.

Are running clubs free to join in the UK?

hillstrider

KATJH, running clubs aren't free in the UK, but considerably cheaper than hiring a Coach. Two minutes was only a guide, and if this feels too much for a recovery run, then stick with your 2.5 minute recovery pace.

NickW2

I think prices of running clubs vary quite a bit, but certainly many are very cheap - for example mine is £30/yr if you don't want EA affiliation.

KATJH

Ok thank you. It's just because I don't want to overtrain myself agai. because I got very very sick doimg that last year when I was desperate to set new PRs every couple of weeks and was running all my miles hard. Put me out for about 7-8 months and even 9 minute miles felt like races because I was depleted. And I was clearly doing it all wrong.

As much as I love setting PRs, I would take avoiding overtraining again over any PR.
I have physical health issues so my mental strength excells my physical strength (most people have the opposite problem lol) and I think the most important thing things time is telling myself it's okay to not obsess over pace and enjoy running and make it easy sometimes so my body can recover. But when I do do a hard workout- I make sure to make it HARD. I think this is a smarter training strategy than my old onw (whixh clearly disn't work) as I am notifing a few differences. i'm just scared of slipping into overtrainning again.
Because I have autoimmunw disease, i never know when im feeling tired because of that OR because of running. If it's the autoimmune disease making me feel crap, i normally want to push through it. But if it's running-take a test.
The hard thing fir me is differiencating WHEN to push through and when to rest...

Also, I don't even think i can afford £30 a hear right now. I am a student struggling to get by and am in debt so it is out of the question. This is why I have lately resorted to advce from here and letsrun

KATJH

I have spoke to doctors about this and they all look at me weird because none of them are runners

KATJH

I am so sorry about the 10+ typos to whoever reads that. I hope you understand what i meant. Will proof read my posts in future. Not used to using the internet on a touchscreen.