Default run pace and target marathon pace

Hi All

Glad to see the forums are back up and running as they used to be.
I need some advise on marathon training plans and the typical target pace's they ask you to run at.
My goal has been to run a marathon at a fraction under the 4 hour marker. So far the best I have achieved was 4:15, and my second attempt was a complete flop at 5+ hours due to a bizarre heatwave in April last year.

This year I want to try a different plan and attack the marathon in far better shape. 

So here is my question. To run a 4hr Marathon my average pace needs to be a steady 9:09min/mile. Therefore most training plans ask for a long run at a pace of +1min/mile your target pace. ie I would have to run my long runs at 10:09min/mile. And they ask for a 'Typical' run at marathon target pace (9:09min/mile).
But....
My default running pace is around 8min/mile on a typical weekday evening run of around 6 miles.
On all my long runs last season, my 20 milers were at a pace of 9:10min/mile on average.

So to run slower on my long runs and to slow down my typical weekday evening runs feels counterproductive and I actually find it difficult to do. 
Despite being able to do my long runs around a min/mile quicker than the plans advise, I have yet been unable to maintain the 9:09min/mile of a marathon. Generally get horrendous calf cramps 20+miles and barely walk the final 6.

I am hoping with some friendly advise/experience I may get 3rd time lucky on breaking 4hr marathon.

Thanks in Advance 


Comments

  • You are similar to me, weekly runs for health wellbeing etc 4 times a week (sometimes 5 depending on how week overlaps in to next) 6 milers (sometimes 5.5 sometimes 7.5) at pace 7:50-8:30 minutes per mile depending on terrain. My long runs for marathon training 15/18/22 were around 8.5/9.5/10 minutes per mile depending on how far in on them, and cramp in one leg when running first marathon at 22 miles, and detached toe nails at 20-26 miles on second marathon. Both those marathons I came in 15-20mins below the 4 hour mark, 3:47 and 3:42.

    So on this basis, taking in to account we are similar in regular running and ability you should be able to do under 4.

    So not being a doctor or a sports coach, the only thing I can suggest that correlates with myself is fuel. I'm a big advocate of regular chunks of flapjack past 12 miles, little but often and the odd Haribo for quick spikes. I run quite quickly the first half of the marathons I've done, then feel quite ahead of where I want to be, then try to think I am now just starting a half-marathon I have to be topped up with 'fuel' as though I have just started. Break the distance also in to pschological chunks "I'm doing 5x5 mile runs" get one out of the way then start the next in your mind, never think or reigister the big number.

    Also running with somebody when training for long runs, really, really does help. You get a better view of when you are flagging in training and also help another and yourself to get through your own and partners natural points of flagging/weakness.

    I would say, although other may disagree, run your regular running sessions as you normally would, but then every few weeks do a long one 30% more than normal at challenging pace but slower than your regular runs, then do this pace again a fews weeks later at 50% longer than normal etc.

    Remember running should be fun, choose routes with bit of interest/variety, things to see etc, if you focus on just time and distance it can get a bit treadmill-like and demoralisingm waiting for the counter to get to the designated end point.

    Hope it helps.
  • On the slow runs you are working on a different system. Your aerobic system, building up mitochondria. It’s effectively weight training for the legs.
    On your 8:00/mi you are working on your lactate system. Your ability to clear and process lactate. While you are producing lactate you are reducing the available oxygen to the mitochondria and inhibiting their growth. Sabotaging your training. Not working on speed and not working on endurance. Some people call this junk miles. 

    Slow your 6mile runs down to marathon pace. Slow your long runs down to marathon pace plus a minute. Speed up your interval sessions to 7:20-7:00/mi. Limit yourself to one threshold run a week of about 3miles at about 7:40-50 plus a couple of miles warm up and cool down at marathon pace. 
  • And lay off carbs during the long run. 
  • Morning Benjy and Tim thank you both for your advise, I can relate to Benjy and I can understand the logic in Tim's response.
    For the next few weeks I will practice slowing my pace down to replicate marathon pace. This is something I do need to improve on and could hopefully be the key to a successful marathon next year.

    Tim R2-T2 said:
    And lay off carbs during the long run. 

    Interesting comment Tim, why do you say that?
    I have previously used my long runs to practice my carb intake prior to the long run and during it. 
    My assumption to your comment is that if I reduce my carb intake for the long runs, I am better replicating the conditions of a marathon. Is this where you are coming from? 
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited November 2017
    What is your recent half marathon time?  That way you can work out what your possible marathon time (and pace) is, and the training paces accordingly.  Your long training paces should be quite a bit slower than your marathon pace, as that builds endurance.

    Regarding Tim's comment, there is a school of thought that carbs/sugars are not needed for marathons, and some people have had great results from reducing carbs.  But, if you don't fancy doing that, then practicing your fuelling/carb strategy in long runs is a good idea!
  • Hi Big G
    My last half was a year ago and that was 1:45, my most recent race was last month's great south run 10 miles which took me 1:20 (7:56min/miles).
    I don't really take on any fuel for a half, maybe a sip of a sports a drink or the odd gel. 
    Really hoping to train smarter this winter and get the end result I have been wanting.
     
    This April gone, I really thought I had trained well and eaten well. Got a good few 20 mile long runs in and a 22 miler. Stayed injury free. Tapered well for just over two weeks. But on race day, I felt completely spent by the half way point. Looking at my Garmin I avg'd 8:50min/miles to the half way point then drastically dropped off a cliff and got bad cramps in both legs from 15 miles. 
    Really do not want to experience that ever again! 
  • HA77HA77 ✭✭✭
    Sorry Tim, I've got to disagree with some of what you said.

    I think there is some dispute as to whether faster running increases mitochondrial density but I know it has been found to increase mitochondrial volume, increasing their energy production. Increased mitochondrial function will help prevent lactate build up, so you can't separate the systems like that. Producing lactate and having some localised muscular hypoxia is an important trigger in skeletal muscle adaptation to endurance training. Short term muscle hypoxia in training won't inhibit mitochondrial growth.

    I agree that OnTheBeach may need to slow his training down, but I don't think anyone would classify MP or 1min/mile faster than MP as junk miles.

    OneTheBeach - I'd be interested to hear what your overall training program looked like 
    (overall mileage, sessions types etc) and what your running background / progression is like.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    OK.  Put your Half Time into a Marathon Pace calculator, and it will also show your training paces.

    There are a few out there and they have different results, but here is one.  McMillan is another one, although others have said that can be optimistic.  https://runsmartproject.com/calculator/

    As you've said you've struggled with marathons in the past, my advice would be to not be tempted to do your easy runs at the quicker end of any range that the calculator may show.  Do them real easy, and that will help build endurance.  It may seem counterintuitive, but it works!  There's plenty more advice over on the Runner's World Shades thread if you want, and she'll give you your training paces etc. They're a good bunch over there.  :)  

    Good luck!
  • I think you definitely need to slow your long runs down and do more of them. You obviously have the speed but not the endurance required to go sub 4.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • Thanks HA77 and Big_G. 
    The calculator would indicate that I should be able to complete well within 4hr based on historical race times. Which is good to know, plus all the responses here are helping me identify where I may of been going wrong with training. 

    HA77 said:


    OneTheBeach - I'd be interested to hear what your overall training program looked like (overall mileage, sessions types etc) and what your running background / progression is like.
    I will dig it out from last year, it was an adaptation of a 16 week plan from Runners World magazine back in 2015 but I added a 2 week buffer in case I had to miss a long run or picked up any niggles. I must admit I probably didn't stick to the tempo sessions. From memory I substituted these to a typical 3-4 mile run but a fast pace (ParkRun for example). 
    My average mileage a week was around 25 miles, peaking at 30 miles for the final weeks. 

    Only started running in 2014, started out at 5k and have been building myself up ever since. Generally run 3-4 times a week. 
  • That's quite a low average mileage for marathon training.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • That's quite a low average mileage for marathon training.
    I agree. 
    New plan needed for sure! Really want to up my game plan this time.
    4 months of training and to not hit your goal is very disappointing. Hence doing much more research this year.
    So many plans on the intaweb..... :/
  • I echo the previous points about low mileage, and also your standard runs being much too fast - your standard runs need to be easy (recite the lord's prayer kind of easy, my coach told me), to provide base miles.

    Like you say, there are too many plans available online. I'd really suggest checking out your local running club, as you'll find many others working to a similar goal, and the club should be able to provide you with a training schedule.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    OnTheBeach, I agree with Little Miss Happy - that's quite low mileage.  Again, Shades has a plan that lots of people have followed, with good results.  From your Half time you're capable of sub-4hrs, but if you do all your long runs too quick, you may end up with the same disappointment.  
  • HA77, thanks for that. I’ll do some more reading. I was certainly under the impression that the presence of lactate meant that the muscle fibres adapted differently and the runner becomes better trained to run at lactate threshold rather than slower pace. Although having a higher lactate threshold will obviously benefit. 

    I was thinking 8min/mi is slightly below his LT pace so could be seen as junk. Running at MP certainly isn’t. 

    My suggestion to eat less carbs on the run is really that I’d read a lot about lower glycogen levels being beneficial for adaptations. 

    You'd still need to do a few long runs where you practice your fuelling strategies. Just if you’re running long and slow you’re not really burning through carbs. 
  • HA77HA77 ✭✭✭
    Tim - I hear lots of different things about mitochondria and the effect of running at different paces so I'm never really sure what to believe.

    OnTheBeach - As others have said there's a good chance your overall lack of mileage is the problem. A 20 mile run in a 25 mile week isn't the same as a 20 mile run in a 50-60 mile week. I agree with everyone that you should slow down. I also think you might find your easy pace automatically drops as you increase your mileage, that's what I find anyway. 
  • I really appreciate everyone's feedback.
    Increased mileage is definitely something I will be focusing on this time. I will also pay much more attention to my pace especially on my long runs. Slower and longer is what I was missing from the previous two training programs.
    Looking back at one of my 20 mile long runs from earlier this year, I completed it in 3:04 at an avg pace of 9:03min/mile which is in fact faster than the MP required for a 4 hour finish. Also the run lasted 3hrs, which I can see now meant that I still have an hour of uncovered endurance training. 

    Shades is going to email me a copy of a training plan which a few people have recommended. I also have a copy of the Asics 26.2 sub 4 hour plan and a copy of the Marathon Handbook sub 4hr plan. Not sure how i'll choose but i'm sure I'll see a common theme between them all. 

    Now I am really looking forward to getting back into proper training.
    Brighton Marathon 2018 - Sub 4hr attempt 3  :)

    Thanks 
  • OnTheBeach - choose the plan that fits in best with the rest of your life, that way you are much more likely to stick with it. 
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • Ray A2Ray A2 ✭✭✭
    On the beach,from the times you have posted I would say sub4 is well within your ability.Also I agree about increasing your mileage as this will definitely help.Of course one size does not all but for my last two marathons Brighton 2016 and Abingdon 2017,I used the p&d plan from the book Avanced Marathoning,please don't be fazed by the title.The main thing I think is beneficial is the mid week long run which certainly helps mileage wise.Being 68years old now I did adapt plans slightly but achieved 3:43and 3:39 respectively.Brighton is a really good marathon to do and I hope you achieve your goal.
  • Ray A2 said:
    On the beach,from the times you have posted I would say sub4 is well within your ability.Also I agree about increasing your mileage as this will definitely help.Of course one size does not all but for my last two marathons Brighton 2016 and Abingdon 2017,I used the p&d plan from the book Avanced Marathoning,please don't be fazed by the title.The main thing I think is beneficial is the mid week long run which certainly helps mileage wise.Being 68years old now I did adapt plans slightly but achieved 3:43and 3:39 respectively.Brighton is a really good marathon to do and I hope you achieve your goal.
    Hi Ray - Fantastic marathon times!

    I completely agree on the low mileage. I have been looking at the P&D schedule and Shades has kindly shared her recommended plan with me. I must admit both plans have the long mid week, which until now I have never considered. Finishing work and then running 10 miles is probably more mentally challenging than physically. I just need to man up and get some distance in. 
    Really looking forward to tackling Brighton for a 3rd time.
    Thanks  
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