P&D Autumn Marathon 2019

Thought I may as well have a go at starting the thread this time.
I think TR is the only one with a marathon coming up shortly and most of us are turning our attention to the autumn period.
No definite marathon plans for me yet, but I've whittled it down to 3 contenders:
- Running Grand Prix at Goodwood race circuit (22nd Sep)
- Richmond Marathon (15th Sep)
- New Forest Marathon (8th Sep)
I need to fit it in with the North Downs Way 100 on 3rd Aug and the Autumn 100 on 12th October so those are the only 3 available by the looks of it.


  • hamo44gfchamo44gfc ✭✭✭
    Cheers AWC.

    Ill commit my plans to print then...

    A race - Great North Run (8th September)
    B race - Belfast half marathon (22nd September)
    Marathon just to feel part of the club  :D - Dublin (27th October)
  • SorequadsSorequads ✭✭✭
    Well done AWC

    You're building nicely, Hamo. Excited to see how you'll go at GNR. 20M run the day before? Good luck in the mile. 

    Best of luck with the half, Steve

    I loved the chart, NE, so we'll not get too pedantic. Spoons raised an interesting point this morning. Was the data based on average pace per run? So a session that might include a warm up and cool down and a 'normalish' looking pace isn't really distinguishable for other paces? Or did you in some way separate things for this. 

    Another great grass track session this morning with spoons and a colleague. Same as last week: 6 x 800 with 400 recoveries (then 4 x 100m fast). Really consistent and faster than last week, despite the early morning dampness of the grass. 2:50, 2:50, 2:50, 2:50, 2:51, 2:50. I suppose not racing a 10k 36 hours beforehand may have been useful...

    I've just entered the Bath Two Tunnels Marathon on 18th August. Looks a fun course with nice paths and a good atmosphere. Not too sure on the elevation/speed potential, so will treat it as a good hit out and enjoyable day. Most importantly, squeezing in another marathon before the new arrival late September! Could be a good one for anyone wanting to do a long run before an Autumn goal race?
  • Hi - just seen the thread and thinking of using P+D for 55MPW on 18 week plan. The plan kind of make sense to me with 1 long mid week and 1 threshold and the occasional long run at MP. I am working back from injuries incurred in 2018 and haven't done much running this year so my pacing history is way out of date. Do you tend to use the McMillan training calculator to help with pacing? Also on LT runs (eg 8 mile run with 4 miles at 15k-1/2m pace) what pace should run the other 4 m? Finally (more questions here than the Riddler) is it worth committing to a HRM to do the plan?! Cheers for any helpful responses!
  • AWCAWC ✭✭✭
    BH: welcome to the thread! On an 8mi w/[email protected] I would run a 2 mile warm up increasing pace to LT pace and then a 2 mile cool down at an easy pace. Those runs are all about the LT section and hitting the pace there. I've done the plan with and without HRM and I definitely find it better with a HRM. During peak training I find it hard to know what pace I should be running because of fatigue and so the HRM helps me to do it by effort rather than sticking to rigid pacing which might be too fast or too slow.
    SQ: I've looked at TT marathon a few times as I have family just off the Coombe Down section and I've run the tunnels a few times before. Looks like a lovely course.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    HorseShoe - p and d gives pace ranges.

    SQ - TT sounds good.

    AWC - i did NF 1/2 last yr (and have a free place for this year as M50 winner), whilst its a lovely place to run, a real privilege in fact. I wouldn't do the full as i dont think the distances are accurate, they never released results to the like of Pof10 so i couldn't claim the result, and they set all sorts of waves of varying distances off through the morning, and you can end up all finishing together,  i dont want to merge with a load of 5k runners at the end of a mara, a mara finish should be more special........on another note have you run the Salisbury 54321 ? I was looking at it as a summer pre Abo long run, but dont want anything that requires navigation (ive gone off course before,  in an off road race).
  • HA77HA77 ✭✭✭
    Welcome BH. I just run to feel rather than pace or HR. If it feels like LT pace, that's good enough for me. I guess it's that classic, comfortably hard sort of feeling, that becomes somewhat uncomfortable by the end of 7 miles. Have you got a race booked in?

    SQ - That looks a great race.

    Strides done with no calf issues. Might have to do a proper session next week.

    Has anyone else been seeing how much weight it's possible to put on in 3 weeks post marathon? I think I'm at about 4.5kg at the moment.
  • NorthEnderNorthEnder ✭✭✭
    HA77  The website is showing the closing date for next year’s race. For 2019 they are closing today and dont seem to have put this on their website. Do a search for their Facebook page and use a Contact Us or email to let them know you are interested. They are very relaxed people and if they can accommodate an entry after today, I am sure they will. 

    In 2017&2018 I entered the 75 (my first races beyond 26.2). It was originally at end of July and I’d averaged 27 mpw throughout 2017. So you don’t need mega mileage. In the preceding 3 months, I tended towards very hilly routes and included practising walking.  In 2017, I ended up getting lost (and out of time and energy and torch and GPS) at 70 miles and completed it in 22:41 last year. So if the 75 appeals, then I would recommend choosing that one. It is tough in places though - but what’s the worst that can happen?!
  • Thanks everyone for your helpful comments - running Chicago in October to answer your question, HA77. Slowly trying to build mileage up (and distances I run at LT) to start 18 wk programme in mid-June.
  • AWCAWC ✭✭✭
    TR: I did the half in 2015 and you are right. Thanks for the reminder, the finish was a bit of a car crash. I've heard a lot of people complain about the distances but it is professionally measured and I think its down to GPS data not being great in the forest and people believing their watches are infallible. On reflection I'll scrub that one off my list!
    I've not run Salisbury before but I have a few mates who do it every year and its well marked and pretty hard to get lost.
    HA: glad the strides went well and yes its so easy to pile on the lbs after a big race. That ultra looks really good.
    Off home shortly for a hilly commute to the house this evening and then back in tomorrow morning.

  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    Sounds about right HA I'm not sure I've quite managed that but it's close & I was starting from a heavier base.
    NE Good question on paces from Spoons via SQ. I was wondering the same.
    Brief report from me: Got abducted on my way in to the house this evening. Dragged out to do Mynydd Pen-y-Fal a 5M 1000' fell race up Sugar Loaf just as I'd sensibly decided to avoid it D 
    Lovely evening for a hilly run. I tried reasonably hard but was over 2 minutes slower than I was in 2016 when the lead group all missed an important turn so we ran a bit further & a much steeper route. I was in 6th that time but fell back so much I lost motivation to hurt myself on the climb but hammered the descent.
    Tonight I knew my legs were shot from the w/e, yesterday's efforts & then today's 35M on the bike so took it steady to start but then ramped up what effort I could muster after about a K. Picked a couple off then held that position til the end. No idea where I came as results were recorded on a scrap of paper. No prize but I did beat the first V60 . . . just D 

  • NorthEnderNorthEnder ✭✭✭
    edited May 2019
    Hi Blue Horseshoe.   Whilst some, like HA, seems to like the old fashioned way of doing LT runs (it doesn't seem to do any harm to his results!!) I've moved to doing it entirely by heart rate...    After a warm up, I do the first mile at an estimated pace, which brings my HR there or thereabouts... then I just try to keep my HR fixed at 89% HRMax...  looking at my HR reading every 30 seconds or so.    I think 89% works for me... but we all have different LT heart rates.

    Well done Jooligan - that fell race will be great training for your Fountains5 race tomorrow!

    HA... Top eating.  Are you following some sort of plan?

    hamo... see you in Dublin.  I assume you entered already - as it sold out about an hour after I got my entry in.

    I must have missed spoons's question about my graph.   Come on guys, you should know me better than that.  Of course I did it rigorously  :p - as best as my records allowed.  So for example... a VO2 max run was represented in the graph as perhaps 2 warm up and  2 cool down miles at paces between 9 and 10.30, and some fast miles.  I chose to completely ignore the 50% interval rests..  so, for example, the fast bit of a  session with 5x800m reps was classed as 2.5 miles at 6:20 pace.
  • 1SteveMac1SteveMac ✭✭✭
    AWC - Maybe I missed it before, but you are doing 3 100 milers this year then??
    Jools - Nice unplanned fell race.
    Easy 5 miles today, will probably do my last run before race day tomorrow instead of Saturday as I'll be supporting the GF at the 10k that day.
    Good luck to everyone this weekend.
  • AWCAWC ✭✭✭
    Steve: that’s right - SDW100, NDW100 and A100. I’m in the lotteries for Western States (2nd yr) and UTMB (1st yr) so I’m trying to get my legs ready for those races in case I get in 2020. I’m also thinking about doing Ronda Del Cims next year which would get me into the Hardrock 100 lottery. 
  • hamo44gfchamo44gfc ✭✭✭
    SQ...its strange, i've just checked, and the plan doesn't seem to have a 20 miler scheduled the day before race day, think i might throw one in for the craic though  :D That is really good speed and consistency for the reps, nice when you've a few people to work of for sessions like that.

    BH...welcome. I do most of my LT runs etc off a mixture of pace/perceived effort, i wouldn't normally bother too much with HR. Though in fairness that's more to do with my watch sensor being a bit s**t sometimes and not having a chest strap, so never know if that HR is 100% right.

    HA77...good to hear the strides caused no issues. I'm definitely with you re the weight gain too,  I really need to stop eating everything i see  :D 

    NE...no, i've not entered it yet  :( they are releasing 2500 more spots on the first of July so will hopefully get one of those, if not there's always a few bibs knocking about our local clubs closer to the time. Have you done Dublin before? Are you over for long?

    AWC...3 100 milers in a year is some going, fair play to you. Best of luck with the 2 lotteries as well, ill keep everything crossed for you.

    7m easy for me this morning, planning on 6 easy tomorrow morning to hopefully freshen the legs up a bit for the mile relays tomorrow night.
  • Joe - sorry to hear you’re still not well, wishing you a speedy recovery. Agree that it shows how good VLM was running that time with an underlying illness. As you’ve done Valencia before it would be great to get some advice on accommodation. Would you recommend a hotel or is an Airbnb the best way to go?

    Macca - well done on building up the mileage again. I agree that driving somewhere to run other than a race seems counterintuitive

    Hamo - I don’t think there’s any chance you’ll take Dublin as a training run

    Steve - I’ve read that if you’re going to take a day off before the race, Friday is better than Saturday so you’re loose on the day. May be worth taking into consideration?

    NE - I assumed you wouldn’t take such a short cut  ;) Although I wasn’t sure if you did it manually or had something automated. I had a look at doing similar, but I’d have had to export the 126 run files and paste them into one file so decided it wasn’t worth it!

    Jools - best laid plans ruined and all that  :D Glad to see you’re being realistic about the performance after your previous workouts

    Blue Horseshoe - I’m somewhere between HA and NE, I use HR in conjunction with RPE.

    HA - I was 5.5kg up about 4 weeks after I think. It’s starting to come off now I’m upping the training.

    AWC - Richmond is one I was looking at until I got injured again. The field didn’t look to be very deep from previous races, but I think they’ve expanded it a lot this year.

    SQ - great to see you’ll get in another marathon before the new arrival. Will you do the 12 week P&D schedule or put something together yourself?

    As I mentioned, I’m all signed up for Valencia. 9 weeks until the schedule starts which feels a long way off right now. I’m going to do more racing this time round so I don’t drive myself crazy focusing on 1 goal.

    Tuesday was 8 with about 4.2 miles @ LT. Garmin had me averaging about 6:48mm for the LT section, but I don’t particularly trust it on that loop. The time is only about 15 seconds per mile slower than the LT I did before Wokingham, which considering the extra weight I’m holding is very positive. I’m hoping this means I’ve held on to a lot more fitness than I originally thought. Backed up with an 11 mile MLR yesterday in 7:43mm, so things definitely going in the right direction.
  • runspoonrunrunspoonrun ✭✭✭

    A new thread, exciting! Have to say, for the second one in a row, I’m glad to put the last one behind me.

    Hope you get well soon Joe

    Welcome Blue Horseshoe. An HRM can be useful, but it’s important you find out your real max HR, as the formulas are inaccurate for the majority of the people and without an accurate value it’s not much use. The book does advise on paces, but you have to find what works for you. I find I can never hit the suggested LT paces in training, for example. But broadly speaking recovery and GA runs should feel nice and easy, LT runs not so much! :D

    Glad the calf is ok HA. Impressive weight gain, I think I managed 5kg after Manchester last year. 

    Classic Jooligan. Well done, regardless of the time.

    Solid LT HPR, sounds like you haven't lost too much at all.

    Great training everyone else. Good luck to those racing over the weekend.

    I was really pleased with the intervals I ran with SQ yesterday. All between 2:51 and 2:54, with an average of 2:52, so faster and more consistent than last week. Legs felt pretty knackered, not helped by trains and meetings afterwards. But it’s nice to be able to work them hard again, as I’d felt pretty aerobically limited lately.

    I’ll ease right off now, ahead of the Pitchcroft 10K on Sunday. Forecast is looking a bit warm and breezy, but hopefully I can give it a good blast and set a proper marker for where I am at the moment.

  • runspoonrunrunspoonrun ✭✭✭
    I've gone through and added everyone I could see to the traditional race calendar below. Apologies if I missed anyone. Do add in your plan and goal, and any other races...

    Bath Two Tunnels - 18/8

    Great North Run - 8/9

    Berlin - 29/9
    RunSpoonRun - NAZ/BAC/P&D hybrid - 2:44:59

    Chicago - 13/10
    Blue Horseshoe

    Amsterdam - 20/10
    Joe Blogs

    Dublin - 27/10

    Valencia - 1/12
    Joe Blogs

  • chickstachicksta ✭✭✭
    ooh, a new thread 👏 exciting

    Welcome BlueHorseshoe :) LT runs hurt. Period. But they're also strangely rewarding. I'm another one advocating HR training. I often struggle to hit LT pace what with accumulated fatigue, so knowing you worked in the right zone has its advantages.

    I bet my tablet will destroy the format with silly line spacing, but here we go:

    Bath Two Tunnels - 18/8

    Great North Run - 8/9

    Berlin - 29/9
    RunSpoonRun - NAZ/BAC/P&D hybrid - 2:44:59
    Chick: - Classic P&D for a delusional 3:18

    Chicago - 13/10
    Blue Horseshoe

    Amsterdam - 20/10
    Joe Blogs

    Dublin - 27/10

    Valencia - 1/12
    Joe Blogs

  • chickstachicksta ✭✭✭
    Sorry for being a bit absent, guys.

    Still enjoying Provence, only 2 days left here though. Have eaten way too much food and drunk way too much wine :D but the French are just so good at this. Running proved a lot more difficult than I would have thought. Totally underestimated how bloody hilly it is around here. Our holiday villa is on top of what I call 'bastard hill' :D - roughly 1k long with about 110m of ascent so you destroy your quads before you're warmed up. The steepest bits have a 26% gradient and reduce me to a walk on the uphills. I have become quite reckless at the downhills though.
    Macca: Really enjoyed your Thames Path 100 report. Amazing achievement. Big fan of Camille Herron 👍 even more now after reading about her Taco/ beer fueling strategy.
    Steve and Hamo: nice parkrun PBs
    TR: massive miles in recent weeks. Wow. Enjoy the taper.
    HPR: Enjoy the busy social schedule. I hate it when my Garmin tells me my fitness is deteriorating 😡
    Great news on doing Valencia. It's in my to do lus 
    SQ: I could never in a million years run up Mt Ventoux! We drove up it once and it seemed never-ending. The cyclists out there looked like they were standing still ...
    Well done on a great 10k time and for sorting out the ladies prizes. 
    AWC: sounds like your ultra training is going well. Impressed when people switch to let carb diets. Don't think  could live without bread, pasta and potatoes ... Well, I probably could but it would be no fun :D
    NE: Wow,CA sub 20 parkrun. Brilliant 💪 your analysis of miles looks to me as though lots of slow miles make for a fast marathon :)
    And I would agree with Jools. Run to HR and the paces will take care of themselves. You got a great result with this approach so I wouldn't change a winning team ;)
    Reg is back with a bang. Awesome 10k PB 👍
    Spoons: your running has come back nicely and that parkrun should be a good boost of confidence. Hope the 10k at the weekend goes well.
    Hamo: sounds like decent autumn racing action to me. Ugh, a mile race 🤢 rather you than me
    Joe: Sorry to hear you're still struggling. I hope you can get to the bottom of what's ailing you. Have you had a recent ferritin, B12 etc. check?
    Managed my longest holiday run today: 10 and a bit rather undulating miles. Properly knackered now.
  • Again, just a note to say a big thanks for all the helpful comments I have received back - really appreciated! Good luck with all the running and some impressive racing/training going on by you all!!! I would also love to do Valencia one day, hear such good things.
  • NE – I eventually cobbled a bar chart together and wondered why over 90% of my miles were within a very narrow pace band 😂 I’ll have to see if I can harvest the individual miles somehow.

    Welcome BH – another vote here for pace/effort to determine runs, with some loose regard to the P&D guidelines.

    Hamo – I’ve always enjoyed the GNR but it’s a few years since I’ve done it.  If they still keep the faster runners on the road for the finish you must be there or thereabouts ? (That was always one of my dreams, to finish on the road).

     Speedy grass reps SQ and RSR – now if we could all do the same sessions simultaneously it would make life so much easier.

     HA – I deliberately didn’t weigh myself the last few days before the marathon in case I didn’t like what I saw so I’ve no baseline but would imagine I’ve gained something similar.

     Jools – love the impromptu 1000ft race.

     Good luck this weekend Steve in Edinburgh and RSR in Pitchcroft.

     AWC – I like those plans, the A100 looked like a bit too much for me this year but it’s another great race.

     HPR – I’m sure you’ll get back into pre Woky shape before you know it.  Throwing in a few other races to avoid all the eggs in one basket syndrome sounds like a good idea.

     Chicksta, thanks. That sounds like a perfect holiday, hills, wine and food, in no particular order.

    As spotted, I’ve been looking for hills this week and couldn’t pass up the chance of a few Parliament Hill reps.  With a run home making up 20 for the day I was absolutely hanging by the end and so I shouldn’t have been surprised that one of my knees started to object yesterday.  It feels ok on the flat which is just as well as I have an inter club 10k tonight.

  • hamo44gfchamo44gfc ✭✭✭
    HPR...more racing is a good idea, saves you being hyper focused on one goal, and the confidence good races bring in the build up is priceless. Id say you have retained a lot more fitness than your giving yourself credit for, good work with the LT and MLRs.

    Spoons...Excellent intervals. All the very best for Sunday.

    Chicksta...that's what its all about, eating and drinking far too much, glad your enjoying your holiday. Yea, not overly looking forward to the mile tonight if i'm honest, i can see it far enough, but the club asked if i'd do it, and it'll an experience and guaranteed pb if nothing else  :D I can safely say i'm definitely more of a distance runner than the shorter stuff, they hurt too much.

    Macca...I think they still let some finish on the road, 2 years ago i finished in 1.21.xx (less said about last year when i rushed back from injury the better) and the wife who was at the finish line said they started herding people on to the grass finishes not long before i crossed the line. Id love to finish on the road too, so that's the goal this year, even if i don't know the cut off time  :D Hope the knee is nothing serious, and that the 10k went well.

    Steve...all the very best for Sunday, go out and smash it.

    6 mile easy this morning as planned, nice morning for an easy run. 
  • HA77HA77 ✭✭✭
    Good luck Steve and Spoon and anyone else racing (Jools no doubt). I'll be camping in the New Forest. Will take the running gear but nothing planned.

    Had some extra time this morning so started work a bit later and squeezed in about 22 miles. Shirt off by the end, just to excite the locals.
  • AWCAWC ✭✭✭
    Good luck Steve and Spoons!

    Down my part of the country HA! Some nice flat trails to utilise in the NF. Nothing wrong with a bit of shirts off. I’m partial to that myself at the minute in a effort to rid myself of this pasty white skin

    Just a 5 mile recovery at lunch today and then a nice trail run to Winchester tomorrow morning which will be about 20 miles all in. 
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited May 2019
    AWC - cheers for the Salisbury info, I'll mull over doing the 54321 or the IOW 1/2.

    Spoons - hope the 10k goes well.

    Well done on the long runs macca and HA.

    18 to 20 tomorrow will give me mid 60s for the week, with 2 weeks to go. Had a surprise yday when the mp section of my usual 6m at approx mp within 9 or 10m came in around 75secs quicker than normal.
  • Hamo - good luck with the 1 mile tonight.  A totally arbitrary goal but I’m tempted to go back to GNR for a possible road finish.  I’ve a “less said the better” story about GNR too. I’ve never drunk the night before a race since 😂

    Well done on the pre work LR HA and enjoy yours tomorrow AWC.

    Thats a timely fillip TR.  Just got to not upset the running gods for two weeks now.

    Inter club 10k last night.  I didn’t have a pass for this on Tuesday when 20miles with hills + backpack looked like a good idea.  Pass turns up so let’s have a pop at what looks like my softest (all things relative) PB.  Target was something around 37mins so a 1st mile sub 5k PB pace (5:38) was probably a bit keen in hindsight.  2nd and 3rd miles were more like it 5:5x but being slightly net downhill they shouldn’t have felt as hard as they did.  4th mile was all about delaying the payback, 5th and 6th, it was time to payback, 6:13 and 6:18.  I can’t be disappointed with a 40s sec PB for a 37:45 but I’ve a new found respect for 10k.  With a bit more respect I’d like to think I can trouble that time in a couple of weeks.
  • chickstachicksta ✭✭✭
    Another PB, Macca 👏 nice work. Oh yes, 10ks really deserve respect.

    Hope your mile race went well, Hamo.

    And how did you do, Steve and Spoons?

    TR: That sounds like things are clicking just at the right time.

    Long drive home yesterday (nearly 1000 miles) led to a stiff and creaky me today. Ouch. My back is in agony and let's not talk about the legs. Had hoped a nice 10 miles would loosen everything up but it only got worse so I followed up this shocker of a run with a long stretching session making use of my foam roller and spiky ball. Fingers crossed it helps. Getting old really sucks.

  • hamo44gfchamo44gfc ✭✭✭
    HA77...that's a good long run 'squeezed in'

    AWC...shirts off seems to be all the rage, not warm enough here for that carry on yet.

    TR...good sign when the MP efforts come out faster than planned. Looking strong for Yeovil.

    Macca...well done on the 10k pb. Your right though, 10k definitely needs respected.

    Chicksta...hope your back has loosened and eased off over the weekend.

    So the mile on Friday night went surprisingly well, our team placed 2nd, with a combined 3 mile time of 14.59. I ran the first leg in a time of 4.55, which i'm more than happy with considering the first 900-1000m was uphill with an elevation of 124ft and a gradient of 15% at the worst part. Going back down was bit nicer though  :D Strava GAP thing had me 15 secs quicker relatively, which is a nice target if i ever decide to do a flatter mile. Reminded me of why i favour longer distances though, the pain while your flat out is something else, give me hurting less for longer any day. 

    8 mile general aerobic on Saturday, and a LR of 18.5 yesterday brought the weekly total to 82. Think I'll have another week of similar distances, then a cut back week before i start my plan for GNR.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited May 2019
    Macca - given your other race times you have a lot more to knock off at 10k. Agreed re the run gods.

    Chick - im on the roller and spiky ball a lot too, stiff old backs!

    Hamo - getting back to it already.

    20 for me Saturday, 4 yday, then 8 with 6 ~approx mp today. Nice and flat route but 4 of the 6 was into the wind, so was tough at times. Mp av came out 6.37 but was probably working a bit too hard for that pace. However i dont need 6.30 effort levels at Yeovil and 6.45 pace will hopefully feel comfy.
  • Macca - great going over 10km, it really is a pretty brutal distance. I'm sure with a few weeks of good focus you could lower that by a good chunk.

    Chick - hope you loosen up swiftly. 

    Hamo - super quick mile, especially considering it wasn't flat. You're still very much on the upward trend and excited to see where you're running goes in the next couple of years. 

    Great long run TR, followed up nicely with some MP - looking good.

    Up in Edinburgh this weekend for the 'marathon festival'. Continued illness saw me make the sensible (easy) decision not to race. Tempo'd parkrun on Saturday (18:08), before running with Katie during the half on Sunday.

    However, running with her is now in no way straightforward! Hitting 10km in 41 minutes, she sped up slightly over the second half, finishing in 1:26:30 (16th female), slicing another 90 seconds off her PB. She's not long back from injury, so with another decent block of training, I think sub 3 is on the cards sooner rather than later..

    My mum also ran her first ever half. Struggled slightly in the conditions, but got round, and seemed to enjoy herself! Great scenes. 
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