Comrades 2020

1owrez

In the stadium everyone is in danger of being eaten by a plague of giant praying mantises Iecca did superbly well to dip on the line and both avoid her head being chewed off and grabbing an Ironze, an incredible feat of flexibility after running 56 miles, bet she never thought her hot yoga sessions would pay off quite like this! Slow Iuck is  managing to distract the mantises from eating everyone with the flowers he got for being last man over the line.

MARK A ALDERSON

Hey all, well not been 'in' the forum for almost a week with 3 pages to read through.

Sorry I missed the 'dial in' Lowrez, good news re possible quiz etc. Re Virtual I am torn between the full and the 45k, I'd do the full quiet enjoyable with someone else but alone will be a mental feat, perhaps I will consider local loops that bring me home every 20k or something, otherwise to see if can have someone else join me at certain distances and they'll have to bring me refreshments or I I carry a bag which I'd prefer not as it'll surely just soak up several k of sweat this time of the year. From Mr Brasher's open 'letter to all' that no one I know got unless you had seen it on AW or FB then not sure how it was circulated to all - but surely London is going to be axed by 21st June - that's the date of decision, if that goes the GNR will certainly be going to. Shame how three iconic races all celebrating 40 years (Blaydon, London, and GNR) all have come to this. UTMB was axed last week, sad news, but with a 55% refund and entry to 2021/22/23 it could be a lot worse I guess. Have to say am only enjoying the running 6 days of the week tops now as with no races to train for it becomes a chore almost and I don't want that or I shall lose the mojo.

1owrez

There's a massive picnic underway in the park, everyone is ignoring the covid separation rules; instead of wearing face masks they've cut out out Dominic Cummings masks and now they can go wherever they like and run in massive buses as close together as they like

Although everyone is not so sure this was a good idea, it's ruining their style running around looking like right tw*ts. As the rozzers arrive and attempt to  round everyone up kicking over the high tea stand and stomping on the fancies Ppeter is feeling lucky he is the only one to complete the 56 miles thus far and can relax in the stadium watching the rest of us easily outrunning the authorities.

1owrez

As we start to taper in preparation for the great virtual day it's time to drop into the local cafe and take things easy in Ketoland, apologies to the vegans amongst us but I am assured the lobster thermidor aux crevettes with a mornay sauce garnished with a truffle pate, brandy and a fried egg on top and spam can be served as a vegan option as truffle pate crevettes in a brandy sauce or you can have the baked beans.

Dubairunner

Peter R, I have had people stop and offer me water before, generally locals.

My wife lived in Bahrain in the early 90s, the first time I was in Abu Dhabi was 1999, it has changed quite a bit.

Dubairunner

Lowrez, when you say nothing on an 18 miler do you mean food, water or both?

MARK A ALDERSON

I’ve visited Manama several times, from my dealings with the people across the region I’d say it’s the safest and most liberal of all the in Gulf. Bahrain GP a few years back - that was special on par with Abu Dhabi. 

Just entered Centurion Community 100, must be mad! 

1owrez

Both Dubai, I usually go out after having had a couple of mugs of coffee, however yesterday I cheated a bit as I was concerned about the jump from 15 to 18 and in addition ate some camembert, a piece of 90% cocoa chocolate topped with crunchy peanut butter, a pear and half a mug of water. But I took absolutely nothing with me.

MARK A ALDERSON

 I run at least twice a week with nothing to eat prior to running, perhaps one coffee, and no fluids. I’ve almost been beat a few times but if you manage your diet well the body adapts. I took a lot of advice from a few of Dr Moseley’s lectures / books. We have evolved to eat more because we think we need to eat, that and our diets are now full of sugar and carbs which fill you up for short periods only. 

Debra Bourne

On an ultra-distance run you'll be running aerobially so should be able to fuel mostly from body fat with some carbs dripping in. My 50K weekend before last I ate about 6-8 pieces of Kendal Mint Cake, three or four home-made energy balls (dried fruit and ground almonds, flavoured with cinnamon powder), one and a half oranges and about 80-100g of salted Pretzels. My Garmin says I only used about 1800 calories, so I probably about half fueled it on intake, and could have eaten less and been fine. Which is comforting for working out how much to take with me each day next weekend. I'm much more worried about how much water I'm going to need to carry.

Peter R

On any run under 25kms I can survive with a coffee, but anything more than that I always have porridge before I leave and I run with my camel pack which has no more than 1.5l of water and enough gels.  On a training run I take a gel an hour ish (I go by feel really) and typically will only take a sip of water with the gel.  In this heat it would be different though, I would drink a lot more.

Local lake was open this morning so managed to start the open water swimming season, finally.

Lowrez, great run yesterday … I did see an article in the paper this weekend asking how many professional sport careers the lockdown has extended as its allowed lots of long term injuries (both physical and mental) to heal.  Probably some truth in that, even for the odd plodder like myself.  Still not committed to the 45K or 90K …. 

Mac3

Lowrez - great work on Ketoland, and tribute to Monty Python.  I thought it was your own special lobster recipe then realised it was a line from the song!  The mask was funny too!

You raise one of the most important topics for ultra running in nutrition.  We all know our livers can store approx enough glycogen for 18 miles.  That build up can take some time before a race which is also why tapering (?!) is advocated.  I generally have a prepared overnight oats prior to a long run and allow some time for digestion.  Everyone is different hence the need to experiment, but that works well for me and no GI issues (soaked or warm oats aka porridge are easier to process).  For shorter efforts of an hour or so I would only have a sip of water beforehand.   I also did an 18 miler yesterday, but for this distance I take water and have a few sips after every 5k or so, where I then walk for a bit.  I'm also now taking a salt/electrolyte tablet every hour.  I had a few nuts to munch on about half way.  But what we forget or don't realise is that to run an ultra you must be fat burning at some point during the race.  It's not possible to consume / process/ convert to energy the recommended carbs intake, which I question anyway.  I'm convinced that if I improve my fat-burning capabilities I will not exhaust glycogen and hit the wall.  This is achieved by building the aerobic base, by essentially running slow especially on the long runs!  I think Marty was talking about this too previously on advice from his coach but all ultra coaches profess this I believe.  I know in the past I ran long runs too fast and felt pretty exhausted afterwards.  I think this was partly because my other training didn't feel hard enough but with some of the interval/hill sessions I do now, this has removed the pressure to push too hard on the LSR.  Now, I enjoy my LSRs and generally, like yesterday, I felt pretty fresh at the end and the legs were not trashed.  I put this down to having improved my aerobic base.  This takes time and patience as results are not obvious and immediate. This is contrary to a period of doing intervals/hills where you would see immediate improvement in say your 5k time.  What I have found is that my average heart rate has come down with the improved fitness but the average speed has improved too.  The lower the HR (zone 1/2) the more likely you promote the fat burning, and tap in to the ready made supply of c.20k of calories, and conserve the precious glycogen.  For me, the test will be at the next ultra/comrades to see if this strategy is working.

Southern Snail

My run didn't totally go to plan today. It was so hot and my legs were tired right from the beginning, so a planned 28 turned into 21.5 miles. I had half a flapjack and sometime later another. But I genuinely wasn't hungry and only took it to see if it helped. It was my third long week and very hot. In fact the food made me feel very full and uncomfortable. In this heat I am taking on water with electrolytes and salt tablets. I also normally run fasted but have done the last few long runs with porridge first. I believe I am more than capable of burning fat for fuel. During South Devon ultra (34 miles) I hardly ate anything but in this weather I definitely get thirst. I am concerned about having enough water with me for the Comrades virtual half purely because it's on the Downs and very hilly making it harder work. If it's hot too...

Lowrez - well done on the 18 miler. Food looks good in the ketoland (long long time since I've had spam though ) Do we get the lobster thermidor at the beginning or the end?

Talking to my hairdresser the other day I was commenting on how well Mr SS and I  were eating in lockdown. He said, yes me too. Lots of crisps and biscuits. Mmm. I was meaning lots of fillet steak and fresh wild fish etc

Debra Bourne

I've previously done long runs of up to about 24 miles fasted and without taking any food/gels/sugar in during the run, but not without water. Fine for a 2-hour or even 2.5 hour run in cool temperatures without water, but in warmer weather prefer to have some with me if running for more than about 90 minutes.

Snail: You're doing more mileage than I am at the moment, I think - you're allowed to have tired legs and 21.5 is still pretty good, although I know it's frustrating to have to cut a run short. NDW from Farnham to Knockholt Pound (so, next weekend) I am grateful for knowing there are considerable stretches that are wooded, so I won't be out in the sun the whole time. Never having run NDW east of Knockholt Pound that's going to be some interesting discovery on 14th. Following running out of water on a recce run along the Vanguard Way previously, which was not pleasant, I'll probably carry about 3 litres for my 50Ks and 45K - and not carry headtorches (since I'll be setting off quite early in the morning, and it is late May) and maybe not the waterproofs, to reduce weight/volume a bit to allow for the water.

Peter R: can you point me towards that newspaper article please?

Lowrez: not much food for me in Ketoland! (But your imagination continues to amuse).

Dubairunner

Okay, I’m not running big mileage at the minute but I’ve never had breakfast before running, actually I’m usually up 3-4 hours before I eat. 

I always have a large glass of cold water and a double espresso first thing. I can run up to 15/16 miles quite happily like this. My last marathon I had 2 eggs scrambled and a banana first thing, I struggled to get them down as I just can’t handle food first thing. I then ran the 26 miles on water alone, I don’t like gels and the drink on offer was Pocari sweat, no thanks. Okay it was 4.04 so nothing spectacular. My running has got slower over the years I’ve lived in the Middle East, so maybe the slow running due to heat has helped me adapt to fat burning. 

I will carry water for any distance over 5k in the summer but will run up to 2 hours without water in the winter when the temperature is only about 20.
something I can recommend are dates, these powerhouses are my go to if I need fuel or a pick me up.

Debra Bourne

Dubai: thanks for the suggestion of dates. I hadn't thought about them and they are a good idea.

PeterDHM

I'm trying to motivate myself to enter the 45km..  think that's about the limit of what I can manage at the moment!  I never generally eat or drink anything on long runs and just have toast / banana / coffee / water before running.  But if I'm ultra training and running further I will try and take bananas / trek bars / water / energy drink / gels etc. with me to practice eating during walk breaks. I've raced quite a few marathons without hitting the wall but do try and take gels during the race.   In other news, still waiting for BA to cancel my flights!

baldstan

Dubai, like Debra I'd not thought to try dates for a long run, but will do that next time. I ran the North Downs Way between Otford and Cuxton yesterday and Debra you'll be pleased to know there's plenty of shade, and some stunning views, particularly passing Otford Manor. I'd say about two thirds of it was through woodland. Nowhere to fill up with water though (and the toilets at Wrotham have been closed because of a fire), so good idea to carry plenty. I parked in the middle and did an out and back in either direction, and both times I'd emptied my bottles before getting back to the car.

Really interested to follow the discussion on training fueled or fasted. For anything up to 18 miles when marathon training I've generally had a coffee and a banana before going out and not taken anything with me. Sometimes I've felt a bit of a dip after about 6 miles, but I've always been able to run through it. Then during the marathon itself I usually have a half litre of water with Maurten hydrogel in the hour before the start of the race, then gels with electrolyte at 10 and 15 miles, and a gel with caffeine at about 18 to 20 miles. But now I'm training for longer stuff I've been thinking it's important to get my stomach used to taking food in regularly, so I've been taking Tailwind, gels, malt loaf, energy bars, Longhaul Endurance's Turmeric chicken, etc (no spam yet 1owrez, but never say never). I was particularly struck by the thing Courtney said in her interview about taking in fuel right from the start of her races, and also an interview Nicky Spinks did on the "Bob Graham Sounds" podcast, where she said that if she finds she's struggling it's usually because she's not taken on enough fuel, and once she's eaten she can get back into her rhythm. Not that I'm ever going to do the kind of challenges Nick Spinks does!

Debra Bourne

baldstan: thank you for that route info - good to know.

Re. dates - they are one of the ingredients of my home-made energy balls (100g dates, 200g dried mixed fruit, 200g ground almonds, all mixed in a food processor, then formed into balls. Cinnamon powder either added, or I've started to shape the balls then coat them in the powder - which adds the taste and reduces surface stickiness. Sometimes chia seeds in the mix as well.)

Re. eating on ultras, I've read in several places that if things are going wrong on an ultra, including if you're feeling low and thinking about quitting, it's always good to eat and drink - dehydration and lack of food may be the problem per se, and anyway do not make for good decision-making.

I've noticed than on ultras of 50-miles plus I will often get a point about 12-13 miles in when I get a 'niggle'/pain in one of my old injury sites and suddenly find myself worrying that I'm about to do myself some real damage and hadn't I better stop now before it gets too bad and forces me off running for weeks/prevently me doing a target race in the future. What's fascinating is that if I tell myself 'it's just a niggle at the moment, you can always stop later if it does get a lot worse' and I carry on, 5 miles further on I probably couldn't even tell you where the 'warning pain' had been. It's an interesting example of the brain suggesting I could stop - but shutting up once I ignore it.

1owrez

Fascinating stuff, thanks for all the feedback and discussion on in event nutrition. On LLCR130 I really didn't feel like eating much for the first 50, that didn't impact me at all, I'd had a hefty breakfast of kitkats, including some accidental silver foil , Welsh cakes, flapjacks, coffee, orange juice etc. I drank loads of Coca Cola and water during the run and then this hunger really did set in and for the rest of the race I ate ham sandwiches and salt and vinegar crisps, they just tasted awesome, I never expected that.

In hindsight, attempting 18 with no water was probably a bit daft , I still don't fancy doing another 10 on top of that on the big day even if I carry stuff with me. Agree that if my pace had been slower I probably would not have suffered as much.

Thanks too for the appreciation of my virtual race efforts so far, really enjoyed the departure of trying to find similar sounding names and Pythoning it up this week and making sure there were vegan options (even if you don't like the sound of them )

1owrez

A big thank you to the company I work for; Innospec, and, all of you who made donations to Brain Research UK for my 7 marathons on 7 continents in 7 days run... Innospec have "double matched" what you donated - for every £1 you gave, they have donated an extra £2. Marvellous new total  on that link

MARK A ALDERSON

Do the full Comrades in your proudest outfit (inc those bright white shoes of course) and I’ll donate enough so with your co doubling you’ll meet your target! 

1owrez

That's a very generous offer Mark, thank you, but I doubt I could cover 90k in 24 hours at my current level of fitness maybe I could get a fitter person to push me around in a pram?

MARK A ALDERSON

haha

Debra Bourne

lowrez, well done on that fundraising!

Dubairunner

Well done lowerz!

I ran a half this morning having not eaten since 3pm yesterday, okay it was a Pizza Express 14 inch pizza. I'd had a few G&Ts and a handful of crisps in the evening. Was out shortly after 6am, we still have a curfew 2000-0600. Was already 33 degrees but felt great, wanted to run sub 10 min miles, did 9.59 but the heat was building. 

1owrez

Wow, that is some going Dubai, and in a mask too! Well done.

SS the Thermidor represents Durban so it is a post finish treat, although, if you are staying at The Hilton, and you fancied it, you could have it the day before, a la Dubai, or indeed for breakfast; anything is possible at L'ilton

Dubairunner

Anything is possible except my refund lowerz, don't think I was charged for Durban but still waiting for my Cape Town refund over 2 months later. Cancelled my flights this morning. As the flight is still operating I need to get yet another voucher. Can't cancel Kulula as they are in business administration. Waiting for them to contact me.

I had to swap the mask out at half way for another buff as the first was soaked in sweat...

1owrez

That is a lot of chasing Dubai, I accidentally am better off having uncharacteristically booked my flights direct with BA this year, usually use a broker like Opodo and end up with some random travel agent I have never dealt with before, Hilton was through booking.com to get a good rate and they didn't take any money so there was nothing to refund. Hope all comes together for you.

I am forming the perspective that a half with no in-run support seems achievable under almost any conditions. Even dressed as a glam female Storm Trooper etc

Southern Snail

Debra - have Centurian given you any indication as to when they will inform you as to whether NDW50 will go ahead. I thought they were going to make decisions about 6 weeks out. That event is now only 5 weeks away with 250 on the start line. Am thinking of the 100. I can't see how we can get from a 'group' of 2 people socially distancing now to a race of 250 in 5 weeks or even 300 in 10 weeks. They can stagger the starts of course into smaller groups but it is a gun to gun race. Really can't work out how its going to happen.