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As regards 2:09 tours (or whatever you call it), I like the look of that Davos trip - how fast do the fastest runners tend to be? I was just thinking it would be good to run with other fast people for a week or so.
Would an easy 5/6 in the mornings 4 times a week be of much benefit, and is there a threshold weekly mileage at which this should be started - 45/50 miles?
PS, have looked at your site as a result of this and the autumn camp looks good for NY 2006!
At Invicta most of the club runners we're on twice a day and we all trained in big groups, I'm sure that the incredible depth for a small club came from that - 3 times winners of LM team race, winners of Southern 12 stage relay and 5th in nat 12 stage, 3rd team in Nat. XC all from a club with 50 members in the 80's.
Mike, I was doing doubles and have recently shifted back to singles (90mpw) mainly due to life getting in the way. But I have done more miles for the main run as a result and found it really helpful - 14M now feels like a regular run rather than a longish one.
Is this a useful period without doubles (as a temporary thing) or am I better off with doubles ALL the time?
At what point prior to the marathon did you start to come off base?
I was planning to run a half mid August and do most of the peaking after that - is that too late? (Race is mid Oct)
Why dont you start a thread? Despite my joshing, I've been fascinated to read your postings and I suspect others would too but they may not find you in a thread called "Tracey Morriss".
Even worse, If Tracey does happen along and realises she's not been mentioned since page 2 of her eponymous thread she might be that upset she stops running! We dont want that do we?
If you want a really serious thread with no messing you could start it on "Training"
Just a thought.
Just because its been done nice dream though.
It sounds like she was a similar standard to what I am at now and I'm quite encouraged to hear that she made such an improvement from running twice a day.
Also, how quickly should you start adding extra morning runs (have done 3 weeks of 1 day training twice, how long before I should add another day?). Also which do you think would be better, adding an extra day of training twice or getting rid of weekly rest day?
This thread has been a really good read. Mike, I hope you don't get bored of answering all of our questions, your answers have been really helpful.
It was inspirational to watch your finish.
Thanks MG2 and all other contributors for one of the most interesting threads that I've stumbled across. If you do start this elsewhere please post a link here so it can be found.
Maybe, just maybe, I'll crack that 3.30hr after all...
We can't all be 2.09 marathon runners but certainly I can recall when most guys set their sights much higher than these days. When I started running in the mid 80s it was quite common for a bloke to run say a 3.20 marathon off of little training, join a club, then five years later be running in the 2.30-2.40 range. I even had a friend that went from a 3.30 to a 2.20. I note from a small snippet in AW that in 1986 200 men ran under 2.30 at London while 2,317 broke three hours. The corresponding figures this year are 75 and 1082. The reasons for this are many and have been well documented - and maybe in the scheme of things it doesn't really matter. However, I have no doubt that there are a lot people out there who can run a lot faster than they currently do. Some are held back by work, family and other social committments - that's understandable. Some are held back because they are simply happy with what they are doing at present - and that's fine too. But some are held back by a lack of confidence, lack of inspiration and a lack of good advice. So, to everyone, be confident in yourself, be inspired by Tracey Morris and re-read all the good advice offered on here ... then go for a run!
popsider and Pantman - I agree about not letting this kind of thread die. I will never ever run in your league, but reading all the questions and Mike's answers is very very interesting and an inspiration.
Would be happy to start a thread, but I think I would need to speak to RW editior Steve Seaton first, cos it would need organising as the threads are absorbing and time consuming and I'm not always around due to travelling to training camps, Swiss Alpine Marathon, New York etc.
Janice Moorekites training.
Janice started running as a result of watching LM on tele in the 80's and came on a training camp I organised in Switzerland and lagged a fair bit behind in most runs. Because we both lived in Kent she came down to my club Invicta and asked for help. She has an immense ability to absorb training and the problem with her was always holding her back...I never wanted to hear that she had taken 20 mins off her 20 mile training loop when she should have been running steady, but she was improving so fast...bit like Tracey Morris I guess.
The amount of training you can absorb and the speed you can improve is personal to the individual....Janice could run through brick walls and probably trained harder than me. The secret to successfully increasing your training is the ability to know yourself. Janice ran twice a day at least 5 days per week, ran her long runs very quickly relative to her racing speed but did less interval work than I did. She also raced very frequently, ran 2.48 in LM one year, was unhappy because we thought she was in shape to run 2.42 based on improvements over 10 miles, so decided to run Harrow a few weeks later and won it in 2.48 again, so she had a great capacity to recover....she's now a level 4 coach and higher qualified than me!!
Fianlly, I think standards reflect peoples expectations, most people could do better if they set their targets higher (but realistically achievable), then adjust them as they go along, either because of improved training form or improving PB's. I started out with a 2.21 marathon and improved in stages over 4 years to 2.19, 2.18, 2.16, 2.12 and then 2.09. When I was at 2.21 I don't think I set myself the target of 2.09, I did that once I had made the jump to 2.12. 2.09 was good enough to win in the early 80's, it would be interesting, but will never know, if I would have targeted a faster time if I was running now..
Thanks Mike, that's underlining some gentle 'nagging' that I've been getting. As a genuine 'back-of-the-pack' runner without the 'right' genes, I am nevertheless aware that even I have a tremendous potential to improve - if I put in the work.
The biggest issue I've found is that it takes me much longer to recover than most of the training plans allow, so it's easy to cause inhuries by trying to do too much. How do we 'ordinary' mortals improve this aspect so that we can train harder?
I've read most of this thread ... fascinating. I've just had a very disappointing FLM, being ill and injured on the day didn't help, but am very fired up to do a sub-3.30 in an October marathon. I just need to sort out my trianing for the next six months, and get some priorities in place
I absorb training well, and recover quickly, my problem is that I was born with a hip problem, have a very uneconomic gait and subsequently don't and can't reach high speeds. However..... while that sounds negative, what it means that my training needs to revolve around making sure that I can run at my fastest pace (which is around 6.45 miling) for longer. Well, running at that pace for 26 miles would suit me fine ....
Like Helegant I think I have the potential to improve, actually knowing how to get there is what I need to work on, oh, and without getting injured as well.
Great thread, keep it up.
Your responses have been really encouraging. I am a relatively new runner and would love to achieve sub 3 hours.
I have run 2 marathons, 1 in Berlin 7 months ago and the FLM on Sunday. My target for Berlin was 3:30 and I achieved 3:13. I didn't really have a target for London but ran 3:12:38 (I consider this to be a considerable improvement given the tougher course and wet conditions for London - I really felt the cold in my legs and my feet felt like stumps).
I have never even considered 3 hours possible and so have never really put in that extra bit to get me there (although I have been running 40-45 miles pw for both Marathons).
One thing I have never really gone for is interval training, and I have a feeling that I have fallen into the miles miles miles training rather than the quality of miles.
What major improvements will I need to make to get down to 3 hours and how long do you think I should leave. I was considering running 10k's and 1/2m over the next 12-15 months and coming back for Berlin in Sept 2005.
Also I have only been running seriously for about 11 months ( having never run over 10k's 11 months ago...and I only did that 4 times). Do you think it would be wise to adopt an 18 month plan or should I go for that 3 hours sooner.
Firstly congratulatins to Tacey Morris. I think it's best to take what the press says about her being a newcomer or fun runner with a pinch of salt, they just love a rags to riches against all odds story. Running doers not normally provide shocks as anyone who trains knows how hard you have to work for improvements.
I would be a bit annoyed to be told it's all because of natural ability when I'd trained hard for something- some natural ability helps but you have to put in the miles and train intelligently- something she has obviously done.
When we were being interviewed for local news about our running of the MDS I mentioned that I had never raced a marathon- meaning I had never competed in a road marathon. I had covered the distance in training and done off road events of longer duration. But they siezed on the never ran a marathon thing and made out I'd been pottering about running a few miles here and there and wasn't it a bit brave/foolhardy to be attempting this run. The press hear what they wwant to hear.
I think it's great that a runner from an ordinary club, just like ours can come and do well at London, I hope this signals a trend in womens running, and we will see more of this kind of thing.