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Hard Training - Dawn (Hilly)
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Also did 1hr of circuits that didn't include any running tonight, thank goodness!
ex-pat-was 2001 the last time you ran a marathon?
ivor blister-for my last marathon my peak mileage was about 57 miles, so maybe I won't need to reach 70 miles. However, the schedule I'm sort of following along with Mike's advice has regualar weeks at this mileage. I'm just not sure my injured leg would cope with that kind of mileage just yet!
Hi yorkshire lass, are you sure we've not already bumped into each other. I could be mistaken, but I know someone who could well be referred to as yorkshire lass!:o)
Last summer I tried again to run a similar speed and everything was ok until about 30K when I hit the wall, even though I hadn't started too fast. I virtually walked home in a time of 3.40. As I crossed the finish line I vowed that it would be my last marathon!!!
However, over the winter I had a change of heart and I'm planning to run the Amsterdam marathon in October. But I don't want to make the same mistakes again. Just finishing doesn't interest me- I want to run a good time. That's why I'm interested in your training thread as we have approx. the same goal.
For me I think my age is against me and I've not got too many more attempts at getting my desired goal. Can I be so bold to ask what age you are?:o)
How have your legs recovered from doing the drills Hilly? I think you can build up to 70m/w with caution, but you would need most of it to be very steady because of the injury. For now I think your strategy of running/cycling is ideal. The weeks rest will do you good, just relax and have a good time...a few easy jogs and a bit of swimming will be enough to keep you ticking over.
There is a direct correlation between 10km and marathon times in that if you can't run a fast marathon with out some differential between your 10km and marathon pace, so by improving your 10km speed there's scope to improve your marathon. There are formulas for predicting marathon times from 10kms, but they don't take into account personal factors - and being a women is one. Men do tend to be more powerful than women and will run relatively quicker over 10km compared to their marathin time, women do tend to be more endurance based and can run closer to their 10km time in a marathon. It is not a clear cut man/women thing though, the proportion of fast & slow twitch muscle is individual and to an extent trainable. I never had a world class 10km time (29.01) but ran a 2.09 marathon...other runners with sub 2.10 marathon times are more likely to have 28 min 10km times. My marathon time is identical to John Browns (2.09.43), but John has run 27mins for 10km - so either I trained my self to be able to hold a pace close to 10km pace throughout a marathon or John Brown is under achieving! I think it was down to how I trained - with high emphasis on endurance, which may have prevented a faster 10km time (also chronic summer hayfever hindered many 10,000m track performances so I know how you feel Hilly).
One thing to watch out for in training for a marathon is the attitude 'what is the least I can get away with' to achieve my target, think in terms of what do I need to do to achieve it...it's a subtly different way of thinking and more likely to bring success. The marathon is an endurance event which is best not approached from the 'least' attitude. In reality 70 miles a week is not that much for some one who is reasobaly trained and aiming for close on 3 hrs for a marathon. 20 on Sunday and just over 8 miles a day for the rest of the week!
A friend of mine set a new marathon pb of 3.08 last year at the age of 43. So I don't think that you need to worry about your age.
If all goes to plan I should be back up to 50 miles by the end of this week, which I plan to stay at for a few weeks, so as not to overstress myself.
Mike at school I used to be a sprinter before doing middle distance and ran a pretty fast 100m does that mean I've got more fast twitch muscles than slow? I also think I'm built more like Kelly Holmes than Paula Radcliffe. Although I love long distance running I find I can sprint quite well even now, which has come in handy at the end of a few races. I'm not thinking of running sprint races, just interested in how to tell if I have more fast or slow twich muscle?
ex-pat, your friends time is excellent and gives us all hope!:o)
My target for London 04 was again 3:15, having trained my socks off, (I thought). I knew it would be close, but to end with 3:16:35 was worse mentally than Cardiff.
Similarily I am now carrying a little niggle, in the bum/upper hamstring area, so am going to build up gradually again.
Is there a training plan Mike?
I meant to say REALLY GOOD LUCK HILLY.
I am now more motivated than ever to come along to Cardiff and try and keep up with you.
Hope the niggle isn't anything too bad!
On the fast/slow twitch issue Hilly, it is likely that you have a fairly even balance between fast/slow twitch muscle that would match a typical middle distance runner - a muscle biopsy would be the only way to tell but it is really accademic if your preference is for running longer distances. A portion of your muscle make up is changeable in one direction or the other depending on the type of training you do - so you can tip the balance a bit - but someone who is predominantly fast twitch will not be able to run a fast marathon - i.e. Linford Christie would never run a fast marathon, similarly Paula Radcliffe would never beat Marian Jones over 100m no matter how much sprint work she did. Many of us run events we're not suited too because we enjoy the event, it may be however that you could be a relatively higher achiever if you concentrated on 5km/10km.
Try to do the drills & shuttle run session as often as possible until you feel you have the strength back in the injured muscle then do them as part of your warm up routine for speed work.
I'll try the drills again tonight along with doing a steady run at some stage today. Off work today so should have time to fit 2 sessions in somewhere.
I have just found this thread and I can sympathize with you.
Ihave the following pbs
5k 20 min (2002)
10k 43.08 (2002)
1/2 marathon 1.29 (2002)
marathon 3.25 (London 2005 & 2004)
I am 42 and have been running since 1998.I have also carried a chronic calf injury for 2 years. Like yourself Hilly I have been resticted to the intensity of training that I have been able to participate in and I feel that although I have stamina, I have been unable to develop my speed enough to reach my target of 3.15 for the marathon.
A bone scan 3 years ago had shown a tibial stress fracture and I really did not give myself enough recovery time.I had minimal time off and went back into training with a vengance.I have recently been fortunate enough to access the sports science dept at the university where I teach. They have convinced me that I am still suffering from not giving myself enough time for my stress fracture to heal.
I have now made the difficult decision to have 12 weeks off and had to abandon any thoughts of running the Dublin Marathon with my club friends. I am hoping to come back fully recovered and strong enough to train at a level that will enable me to reach my goal at London 2005 instead.
I have started cycling 5-6 times per week for 90 mins at a time to kep some fitness and more importantly, my sanity. The cycling is actually getting easier as well!
Good luck with your training, maybe a few weeks of just cycling for a few weeks will help.
How long have you had your injury and how much rest have you had?
I never have but despite that decided to run a marathon in 2002. In terms of my then PB's at other distances (10k 38 minutes; half marathon - 1:31) but even more so against my best ever times - I spectacularly under achieved (running 3:40 - when I though 3:15 was on the cards).
The point is that during the training I always had the view of 'doing the minimum' to get through. That mentality followed my into the race and I remember expecting it to be easy and expected to finish with a big sprint (in the end I was nearly on my knees at the finish).
I sussequently discovered that even now with bike racing there comes a point, usually 2-2:30, into a race where my brain just seems to shut down and will not push my body anymore - even though physically (measured by my HRM) I am not pushing any harder.
Mike - I know this isn't my thread, but if you have any recommendations for reading on mental preparation I would welcome your suggestion.
I consider confidence comes from well organised training and racing which leads in stages to a peak. I never could win the Kent cross country title in January, but by March I was running 47 mins for 10 miles and April firing on all cylinders before London or the AAA marathon champs knowing I had come into shape at the right time. The rest is down to belief that you can win and visualisation of winning - I'm sure I'm not the only person who has run their target race in their head while on a fast training run. I always remember Cliff Temple, who coached me from 1980 after I finished 12th in the Olympic trials and thought I needed help to make the next step, speaking to me in Brisbane before the Commonwealth Games - he just said 'you can't wait for this can you'...and the answer was no, I was as ready as I could be. Although I didn't visualise winning that race because I had run 2.12 in London but Rob d'Castella had run 2.08 in Japan. I went in thinking that if I run my own race with the build up I had I will get a medal. The bronze medal gave me belief that I could make the next step and win London the following April - the Commonwealth games was in Oct. London in April, the kent Cross Country was smack in the middle and I was by far the best runner in the country - but I think I finished about 5th or 6th - it wasn't until I was 40 that I won a county cc title and by then the county cross country was my target for the year and not a stepping stone.
It's a bit rambling, but hope shows a bit of the state of mind behind winning.
I'll get Sean to put up a reading list from what the mag. has available in their library.
Of course you are right - as is said in many fields of sport - confidence comes from self belief and from winning. I think for me at shorter distances - and I'm nowhere near your league - there was always a doubt in my mind about how hard I could push and I frequently found that there were people who I could easily match in training but who seemed to have an extra gear in racing. Partially - and I don't know how common this is for other fun runners - I've never really enjoyed the pain of racing - running (or more generally exercise) to me was much more fun when it was about gliding effortlessly - and that's a feeling which is so hard to capture in competition.
At the moment - as I'm injured - I've got plenty of time for introspection, but I'm certainly enjoying the thread. Lots of good advice and things to think about.
I've had the inury about 2 months now, it's getting better, but is not there yet! I'm cross training with cycling and swimming to keep fitness and gradually increasing my number of runs. As for rest, I've had about 3 weeks of reduced training (cycling 5 times and running maybe twice) and one complete week off that was when it was at it's worse and could've done with more! But I have to admit to not resting easily and only do so when forced to-my weakness!
I'm away next Wednesday for a week so will be doing very little then and hope it'll give it some respite.
Hope you achieve your goal at FLM!
Seriously though I too find I can match people in training (Yorkshire lass)but they have more to give in a race.
Today I did 3 runs:
lunchtime-6 miles off road with friend at nice easy 9 m/m pace, although for some reason it felt much faster. Undulating rough terrain. It took me about 3 miles before my leg felt comfortable and by 5 there was no pain. Not sure I understand this!
Early pm-drills of high knee etc, then 3 miles on treadmill with 100m shuttle runs. Pace was slower on treadmill down to calibration rather than me I believe! Think I might be doing them too fast anyhow, but do enjoy them and don't find them uncomfortable to do.
Late afternoon-4 miles again off road on coastal paths with younger son. Pace was 8m/m and felt ok most of the time.
Won't be doing too many 3 runs aday, but it was a way of getting in my miles today and found it gentler on leg injury than doing a straight 13 miles.
My A races this year being
The Hague 1/2 [in March] where I finished 4th in the open race but a slow time due to the wind. I know my performance was worth close to my PB.
My othe A race is Amsterdam marathon & I'm currently running 80mpw & will go up to around 120 maybe more. This will give me, my race confidence, mentaly & physicaly I hope!
A friend of mine [& Mike's] once told me that marathon training will leave you feeling tired all the time, he's right.
I've trained so hard my legs ached all day standing up at work, when I was asleep & only stopped aching when I was training :-)
It's my choice to do this but I'm hopeing it will all be worth it, if not it's fun trying!
I like the part when Mike say's about
'doing the minimum'
I've never done this in marathon traing as racing 26 miles scares me a lot!
So alway's try to do the max.
Time will tell.
MartinH, I've a book Steve Backley wrote about the mental side of traing & competing.
Called "The Winning Mind"
If I wasn't so tired traning I'd even read it :-)
I never stopped running even though my stress fracture was a definite, diagnosed on a bone scan.I am now paying for not resting and my symptoms were similar to yours, no acute pain and able to do long easy runs but limited speed work,the pain also often eased off into the run.The fact that you have had one stress fracture surely puts you at high risk of another! I had a bone density scan after mine and it showed a poor bone density.
Could you not ask your GP to send you for a bone scan or MRI scan just to make sure?
Good luck you are obviously trying your best!
Going to attempt to do a long slow run tomorrow as last chance before holiday.
I managed a really hilly 12 miler today, and cold bath to follow. I've not lost any CV or muscle endurance, but it's difficult to tell about pace. I daren't push yet.
I did 18 today, 6 on pavements and 12 off road on rough undulating terrain with a few hills thrown in for strength.
Ran 3 to warm-up and could feel a deep aching in my leg, but no pain. Met a friend to run 12 off road and managed that quite nicely at about 8:30-9m/m although I did feel tired. Then did the last 3 home on my own on pavements to make up the 18.
No real problem from injury except aching in the first few miles. On the run itself I was aware of it, but unless I twisted on the uneven ground it was ok. Pace is still hard to pick up, but having someone to run with really helped this morning. On long runs I'm more interested in building endurance and strength at the moment so was happy to be out for 3 hrs today. Well done on your hilly 12!
I plan on having a holiday and am not bothered if I don't get any/many runs in. I plan on walking and swimming and might even have a go at a water sport, but as I've been working really hard to stay on top of things for the last few weeks I don't think it'll hurt to have a week of relaxation-Mike says it's ok!:o)