sub or about 4h30 hopefully



  • The discussion over what to eat on long runs is interesting. I am following the Hal Higden schedule. He reckons that on long training runs you shouldn't eat anything as it stops your body from getting used to burning fat - apparently the main training boost to be had from running long and slow. My friendly running shop assistant (who has run a marathon in 2.30) also recently told me before I was due to a long slow 14 miler that eating would be a waste of time!! Now I am confused! I love jelly babies, joosters and jelly beans and would just love to have an excuse to eat them!
  • After writing the above message I suddenly doubted where this piece of wisdom came from so have had a quick look through Higdon's schedules and can't find that bit! I've definitely read it somewhere though! But where?
  • Slowlegs-that's interesting, and does seem to make sense. But if you want to eat in the actual marathon then you have to practise before hand so I'm not sure how to balance the two. Thoughts anyone?
  • "My friendly running shop assistant (who has run a marathon in 2.30) also recently told me before I was due to a long slow 14 miler that eating would be a waste of time!!"

    Slowlegs - Even elite runners such as Paula Radcliffe take on protien drinks.They have them made up by their go-fers, labelled and then handed to them at pre-determined postions at the course.

    "He reckons that on long training runs you shouldn't eat anything as it stops your body from getting used to burning fat - apparently the main training boost to be had from running long and slow"

    All you need to do is try a gel once or twice but make sure it's flavour you like otherwise you reject the idea.See if it makes any difference to your performance and recovery. Either way you have you answer.
    What works for your "Friendly running shop assistant" may or may not work for you, Tom, Dick or Harry.
  • This has been taken form RW Newsletter no 6

    Every day: Unless you're running early, try to start with a big breakfast (eg cereal, toast, fruit), otherwise you start the day under-energised. Then snack little and often on low-fat foods such as fruit, pretzels or bagels. Drink water little and often, too; aim for two litres a day. Combined with small meals, this will mean you should rarely feel drained of energy, or bloated and lethargic. You can't go wrong with a good pasta supper the night before a long run, race or speed session, but you generally don't need to go overboard on carbohydrate. Around 65-70 per cent of your daily calories should come from carbohydrate; 15-20 per cent from protein, and 15 from fat.

    Before runs: Some people can run comfortably within an hour of eating; others can manage only liquid for two or three hours before. Do persist.

    During runs: Carry water if you're running for more than 60 minutes; sports drink over 90 minutes. Sports drink will also improve your speed sessions: fast bursts tear through your energy reserves.

    After runs: The sooner you refuel and rehydrate after a long run or speedwork, the better you'll run next time. Eat or drink within an hour; ideally within 20 minutes. Aim for 70 per cent carbohydrate, 30 per cent protein - a tuna sandwich, cereal with milk, or a sports recovery drink, for example,

  • ah, well thanks for that, everyone.
    Stylish: I have actually read a lot about nutrition (believe it or not!) It was a bloke called Greg McMillan on his website who suggests that whilst training for a marathon where you're not used to running so long (not if you're an elite runner like Radcliffe who I would suspect already has a finely tuned body and not much fat to burn - unlike me!!) that it is good to run on no carbos to get your body used to burning fat and to feeling completely knackered - well, it worked for me yesterday! As for the bloke in the running shop who shall remain nameless but is an international athlete I think a lot of people would agree with him that a 14 mile training run is not long enough to take on board carbos but I suppose it depends on which trainer/coach/piece of physiological evidence you tend to follow. As for me, well, I'm changing and am definitely going to try some carbos for my 18 miler next week in the form of jelly babies - can't wait!! Thanks for taking the time to answer my query!
    Bananna: Yes, it is a matter of balancing it, I guess what I'm not going to do is consume loads of carbs, just have a bit of a go towards the latter half of my 18 miler next week. Yesterday, for the first time at about 14 miles I did feel weak but then looked on it as a bad patch, ran through it and ran mile 17 at a 9 minute mile! I even finished feeling I could run further (I bet if I had I'd have hit the wall shortly after though!!)
  • Slowlegs - I agree with the man in your running shop - I do not believe you need to eat on a 14-mile run.

    However, it may be good to get used to taking a sports drink on board in preparation for marathon day. If you eat a few hours prior to marathon day, you will not need to eat during the run either, just ensure you take on plenty of water in first half of race, and move up to a good sports drink in latter half of race.

    You are correct in that elite marathoners are finely honed and spend years practicing what is right for them.
  • Great to have loads of different information here - for what its worth I'll put my routine down!

    I am comfortable running within about an hour and 15mins of eating a pasta dish (of just over 200g), if I don't eat I really suffer on my running!

    I'm not convinced of the whole not eating thing - "because your doesn't get used to burning fat" - it may be true when you are really used to running these distances but for me, as a beginner I want every bit of help I can get!!

    I have such a high metabolism that Im always hungry!! I'll eat a big meal and you can guarantee I'll be hungry again after an hour or two - so, although I eat healithly, Im not too fussed how much I eat and when (except for lots before trying to sleep).

    I also read that 3 days before the marathon you should start to load your muscles with carbs - ie. high intake of carbs and lower the protein intake.

    Thanks for the tips on juisters!

    Steve - whats the make of the belt - Im wanting to look into that idea (or a camelpack).

    Well done for all the fundraising everyone - Its really tricky isn't it!
  • Cait - yes, asking around the running club as well, a lot of runners don't bother eating over such distances. I am good before a long run, for instance yesterday I had cereal and a fruity teacake a couple of hours before. I also drink lots of water. I am going to try a sports drink I think like you say in the latter half of the run, to see how this is. My problem is I do have IBS so my stomach can be a little dodgy, just getting used to drinking water was difficult for me as I had terrible stomach cramps!
    By the way it is good to hear your shin/calf problem is better - mine are just starting to play up a bit despite a massage last week - even with a cold bath yesterday after my long run, my legs are sore. I dread to think what they'd have been like if I hadn't bothered with the cold bath!
  • slowlegs - most of my friends in the running club do not bother with sports drinks either. They ensure they carbo load for a few days before the marathon, stick to water throughout the marathon and take plenty of protein afterwards to recover.

    They have all ran very fast times in the several marathons they have run, with no bad after effects. After the last FLM, we all went for pasta the day before, porridge and a bagel 3.5 hours before the marathon, and a big steak the evening after the marathon.

    I hope your shin splints recover soon. The cold water in the bath is good. I also got ultra-sound, which seemed to help. I know how disheartening it can be when you can't train, but 1-2 weeks shouldn't affect your training at this stage. you could still go to the gym and cross train to keep up your fitness levels.
  • CJS - thanks very much for that - I've run several half-marathons and never felt the need to eat but have been much more concerned in the marathon. I'll probably have a go at sports drinks as I'm going to be on my feet a long time just to see how they go! You're right about pre-race nutrition, I think if you get that correct then you should be quite well-fuelled beforehand. Porridge and bagels sound good to me!

    I've had ultrasound in the past for my shin splints but fortunately my legs aren't too bad yet and I'm hoping they'll settle down. I have a new physio who reckons that shin splints can be run through anyway, he reckons you can't make them any worse and if you can cope with the pain then just carry on running! I'm not so sure myself, I've always been told to rest in the past, what about you?
  • slowlegs - be very careful when running through it that you are absolutely sure it is shin splints and not something else as there are muscles and tendons around that area.
  • CJS - dont worry, even if I knew 100% it was shin splints I wouldn't run through it anyway! It just doesn't sound right to me and it's also just too painful! I have had a few people now tell me that is what it is but it does seem to be something that people apply all to easily to any pain below the knee!
  • Re: eating on the the run, I think it is very idiosyncratic, what suits one will not suit another. I am of a very slight build, and during my training for last years FLM, pulled my hamstring, which led to me deferring. During this run (12m) I got very hungry, I am sure I had run out of fuel, and so my body started using muscle to contine running as it had no ready available fuel. This year I am being extra careful. I am aware I have few fat reserves (not necessarily good for 26.2m) and so am taking food and energy drinks on board after about an hour, and intend to do so at every hour mark too. So for me, running 14m and not taking on anything would be a big problem, I am sure muscle would start to breakdown/fatigue and I'd literally keel over.

    I don't think people should worry about gainig weight, as has already been said muscle weighs more than fat and any excess will be lost once you reduce your training again - if you are hungry or feel in need of fuel - eat. As we are all different, we need to do what suits us and we only find that out by trial and error!! That's my two-pence worth anyway!!
  • Agree with Essex re re fuelling. I use energy gels, jelly beans or the odd baby (jelly that is) while training and make sure I eat soon after or use a protein drink. I eat well the day before and make sure I have a suitable breakfast.

    For my two - pence...why deprive yourself? If you can get added extras in while running than what harm will it do. Not bothering seems pointless, at least try it and see.
  • Fancied a change of face. Bit different to the blonde with huge red lips!
    Recovery run last night and although it was easy fitness-wise, I had loads of tiny little niggles and pains around my knees. None of them was really bad, but it confused me as I was pretty well-rested from the recovery week last week. Can resting more give you more niggles??

    Would like to hear more about other people's training aside from the long runs. Are people doing any threshold runs or hills or are people mostly sticking with steady and long runs? I know what people are doing if they're following the RW magazine schedule cos that's what I'm doing. How are people finding it?
  • Hi Banana!

    I am following a program given to me by cancer research (created by professionals elswhere). It incorporates a couple of shorter runs / jogs in the week with the long runs. Basically 2/3 short (15-45 mins), 2/3 mediums at around 45-80 mins and a longer one on Sunday (at the moment over 2hrs).

    Im not doing any hill training (although probably should!)

    Niggles wise - I occasionaly get this, I had a few problems with my knees when I started but that seems to have settled down. I guess if its really a problem you must get it checked out before it could get worse.

    I dont think resting gives more niggles, unless its the fact your legs aren't used to getting back into running - Im no expert so dont take my words too seriously!

  • Hi Guys!

    Just a question regarding fundraising! I am using the justgiving website (feel free to sponsor me!, but I was wondering about this...

    I had a load of cash that friends had given, etc, and to stop it sitting it around i paid it into my bank. My plan was to then load it into my justgiving site and put everyones name up there, my question is do you think you can do this and still claim the gift aid? If you select the option im paying on behalf of someone else you dont get the option to claim it? But if you say the money is yours, you can? I'm confused! Obviously if I can't claim the gift aid on my friends cash donations I wont use the site. But I don't want to sit on a load of cash either!

    What is everyone else doing?

    Oh by the way, put my back out Monday! Was gutted! Going to the osteopath tonight, hope it doesn't slow me down too much.

    Keep running hard everyone!
  • Why not ask the Just Giving. They are usually very prompt at replying to emails.
  • Kieran, I have no idea about using justgiving for that. Any cash I get I make a careful note of and then put it in the bank and keep it. Then I will make one big donation to the charity (from my Dad actually because I don't pay tax) so that the gift aid can be claimed on all the donations. It's not ideally the proper way to do it, but it's easiest.
    Hope your back is better soon.

    I did a threshold run last night which went fine apart from a power fault on the treadmill at one point so it cut dead in the middle of my warm up-unnerving! No pain in knees at all-I wish they'd make up their mind!
  • I am using justgiving too, but think the easiest way to do it is to just make one donation or a series of them as if you are giving the money.

    Bananna - I wouldn't tell too many people you don't pay tax, they'll be after you!!

    A few people have mentioned treadmills and injuries. I think that this is what caused my hamstring problem about 4 weeks ago. I think that whilst if you're outside your body will naturally slow you down if speed or a hill is too much on the treadmill you just carry on at what you've set it at and it can lead to a strain.

    I still use the treadmill but do any speed bursts or hills outside - I use the treadmill for recovery runs.
  • Hi people,

    I emailed just giving yesterday and here's there response...

    "In response to your query, Gift aid can only be reclaimed on an
    individual UK tax payers personal donation. So if you are being given
    amounts offline you should not be banking them and them making donation
    to your page by selecting the option to inform us that this is your own
    money. You can put the donations through the site but you will need to
    select that you are donating on behalf of someone. Gift aid will not be
    reclaimed on donations made on behalf of others.

    To fully benefit from gift aid reclaim you should ask those who want to
    donate to go through the site."

    Therefore I am going to follow Banana's lead and just keep hold of the cash and make one big donation in form of a cheque written by me! At least all the gift aid will go to childline then and not profit for just giving I suppose.

    Went to the osteopath last night who sorted out my back and i then had a brilliant 10k run, best of my life!

    Have a good weekend all! K.
  • Kieran, that's great about your back. Glad it seems to be sorted but keep an eye on it just in case. Wish I could say I'd had 'the run of my life' recently.
    What I'm doing is no different to making a big donation on just giving from me except that I won't be paying the extra 5% for the justgiving service. It isn't any more acceptable really, although the charity did tell me to do it that way.

    Steve, I'm pretty sure that it's ok not to pay tax when you're a poor student and not earning any money!
  • My word, you've been busy while I've been away ! Three more pages of contributions since I last looked. Just back from the South of France - and before we get all envious, it was bl***** cold ! Did 4 runs down there, 35, 35, 64 and 100 minutes. In good shape for all of them and no pain afterwards.

    As for the eating/drinking debate, I never take anything on a run and ensure that I take on Lucozade Sport and plenty of water afterwards. On the other hand, I've got a couple of gels which I am keeping until the FLM if needed.

    When racing, I take on water at every opportunity but not much, a couple of mouthfuls.

    I see that most of you are progressing well and wish the injured a swift recovery.
    A 5-mile race this weekend for me. Tata for now
  • Dear All,

    Hope it's going well...

    Just back from a 15 mile run, felt better than last week, although it was a little painful towards the end. I managed 2.46.49 so I doubt I'm on for a sub 4.30, but the more I'm out the less worried about the time I am. As long as I finish.

    On the food-on-the-go front, today I tried Joosters (I think you'd mentioned them Banana?). Apart from the fact that they got stuck to the inside of my pocket (!) after an hour or so, they were a big help. They're just enough to give you a boost, but not so much that you feel sick.

    Banana, I didn't realise deducted 5% from your total? Is this for using the site? I've been meaning to set up a page to help raise money for Cancer Research UK, but not sure... Are they any good?

    Anyway, I hope everyone's long runs go well this weekend.


  • Hi Chris

    Nice to hear from a fellow Cancer Research UK supporter. I have a site, raising for them - I didn't know about this 5% business either - can anyone clarify this please?!

    Have to say is excellent, very helpful and a great way to get / help sponsorship.

    Thanks for the info on joosters - will have to give it a go. Only a 10/11 miler tomorrow which is nice after my 17 last Sunday!!

    Have a great weekend all.

  • justgiving charge the charity £180 plus VAT per year to use them. This is a flat rate so that the charity I am supporting which is the Children's Cancer Support Group are charged the same as massive charities like Cancer Research UK. My charity cannot afford to outlay this money when they have other pressing concerns. The 5% is also true, Justgiving take 5% of every donation which goes through their site. This is how they make their profit.

    Well done on recent runs!
  • I think the charities work on the principle that most donations will get gift aid from tax payers which cancels out the cost of using the site. It's much easier if people use it as you don't have to worry about collecting the cash at the end, which not everyone wants to give easily!

    For me it was 15.5 miles today, which felt hard at the end. Best to get it in before the snow arrives though!

    Hope everyone else's weekend training has gone well and any injuries are on the mend.
  • I should have done 14 miles today but I stopped at 11.60 (2hr 2). I was trying to hit the target time of 2hr 25min on the RW Marathon Schedule for week 7 but I couldn't go any further.

    I am now pretty doubtful about hitting 4h 30mins.

    I was taking on lucozade sport during the run and had some cereal before I went out to try and avoid hitting the wall.

    Don't know if it's because I have done a bit of extra mileage this week or not, had to do last Sun long run on Mon ended up doing 15.89 m (3h 17m) due to bad weather on Sun.

    Is anyone else trying to hit the times laid out on the RW full Marathon schedules? How are you getting on?
  • Failing Bernard! Should have done a sub 2hr half marathon today....missed the bugger by seconds, 2.00.35!

    Don't beat yourself up, you may just be having a bad week. You still have time to work up to the sub 4.30, just don't go mad and end up injured. Have you tried energy gels too, they might help. Not very pleasant to taste but more energy, carbs etc than Sports Drink.

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