Grumpy old man resents ID cards. Anyone else feel the same?

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  • I hope it has your mobile number on it. I get sick of saying "hold on, I'll have to ring you back because I dont know my mobile number and I'm actually on my mobile phone now"

    I mean, you feel such a lemon dont you?

    So that's catching Osama Bin Laden and somewhere handy to keep your mobile phone number.

    I'm sold!
  • It's not lawful say Masons and the OIC

    The UK Information Commissioner has expressed concerns that the Government’s proposals for a national ID card for all UK residents – known as Entitlement Cards – are so widely drawn that they may breach the country’s data protection laws.

    Responding to the Government’s consultation paper on Entitlement Cards and Identity Fraud, Information Commissioner Richard Thomas claimed that the scheme needs to be focused, otherwise it would be “impossible to conclude that the necessary privacy and data protection safeguards will be in place.”

    “The Government’s efforts to consult widely on its proposals are welcome, as is its recognition that for any scheme to proceed, data protection and privacy concerns must be addressed,” the Information Commissioner said.

    He added: “However, the present proposals raise a number of serious concerns that must be remedied if the scheme is to meet the requirements of data protection law.”

    The Information Commissioner specifically identified six areas of concern:


    The need to guard against “function creep” – especially the risk that greater state monitoring of individuals’ activities will be helped by recording these in a central register;

    The problems of relying on existing databases of questionable quality;

    Keeping personal details accurate and up to date;

    Stopping the card itself becoming the target for identity fraudsters;

    The difficulties in restricting the wider use of the card and the unique personal ID number in situations where these are not really needed; and

    Excessive amounts of information displayed on the card and the dangers of misuse by others who see this.
    Richard Thomas said he does see benefits to individuals “in having an effective and secure way of proving their identity.” He believes, however, that establishing a data protection compliant scheme will be “challenging.”

    According to the Information Commissioner, this would require a strict statutory framework and an effective mechanism of primary legislation.

    In addition, he suggested, there should be administration by an independent statutory body, strict limitations to the amount of information held on a card and effective sanctions for misuse.

    Finally, Thomas said, the scheme would require a reliable method of identity validation, possible with the use of biometric technology, and strengthened data protection supervision and inspection powers.

    Thomas concluded:


    “We must be under no illusion. We are dealing with matters touching on the very nature of the society in which we live. There must be greater clarity about the main purposes behind an effectively mandatory entitlement card. Why do we need the massive infrastructure which will require the highest level of identity validation for the most mundane of services? How can we be sure that the unique personal number and a central register will never be used to track all our various interactions with the state and others?


    "If the government intends to pursue the matter, then it should bring forward another set of more narrowly focused proposals together with a draft bill making clear the safeguards that will be put in place. I look forward to working with the government to ensure that any further detailed proposals are fully compliant with data protection requirements".
  • Getting serious for a moment... This has come up several times over the years ( even remember it on Tomorrows World when I was a nipper... Yes in B&W !)

    If it would save me having to carry all sorts of different id around, it would make my wallet smaller.... But if everything was on one piece of plastic, what happens when you loose it ?

    Like most people we've just had new cards issued to make use of chip & pin... So now cos I can't remember anything, I've changed them all to have the same pin number, so If I lose my wallet and someone guesses my pin number, they could empty my account ( not that it would take long !)

    Looks like a chip implant under your skin would be easiest !!! ( OH but of course it will be 10 years before anyone can agree a specification ....)


  • 27/04/2004

    Yesterday's publication of the draft Identity Cards bill presents a paving bill for Ministers to establish the legal framework for the planned UK identity card scheme coupled with a national database. Most of the detail is left to unspecified future regulations.

    Unsurprisingly it was met with withering criticism from civil rights groups.

    ID Cards and supporting database

    The cards are intended to store basic personal information (such as name, age, nationality, whether a person has a right to work, and a unique identifier), a digital photo, and a biometric, which could include facial recognition, iris scans or fingerprints.

    The government proposes linking the cards to a national secure database to which many services – public and private – would have limited access. This database will include: full name, maiden name, place and date of birth, gender, address, all previous addresses, photograph, fingerprint, other biometric information, nationality, national registration number, NI number, all passport numbers issued, immigration details, date of death. Other security and validation details are also recorded. And the Secretary of State is seeking powers to add to this list of items which must be provided.

    The database will be a source of information for the Security Services, GCHQ, the police, any other organisation involved in the prevention and detection of crime, the collection of income tax or value added tax and any other organisation which possesses a power to gain access to the personal data. The Secretary of State is seeking powers to add to this list of organisations which can gain access to the central register.

    Individuals face a civil penalty if they fail to keep registered details up to date – most notably their current address. If the card is made compulsory, an obligation to register with the national registration database could, subject to regulations, become akin to an obligation to register with the police and security services.

    Protection of Privacy

    The Data Protection Act is seen as a mechanism to protect misuse of the database. In practice, however, the scope for the Act to be engaged is somewhat limited.

    The reason is that as soon as governments legislate in relation to content, retention, disclosure and purpose, the legislation effectively removes the protection afforded by the first five principles of the seven listed in the Act.

    Only if there is unlawful processing or inadequate security will the Information Commissioner have a role. The establishment of a specific Commissioner for the ID card scheme means that the role of the Information Commissioner could almost vanish.

    Dr Chris Pounder, editor of Data Protection and Privacy Practice, published by Masons (the law firm behind OUT-LAW.COM) commented:


    "If, for example, a future Secretary of State were to enact regulations that specify the disclosure of data items X to public body Y, it is difficult to see how the Data Protection Act could possibly stop an activity which has been made lawful through regulations."

    Why do we need them and when do we get them?

    According to the Home Office, ID cards will help tackle the type of serious and organised crime which depends on being able to use false identities: terrorism, drug trafficking, money laundering, fraud through ID theft, illegal working and immigration.


  • Blunkett, of course, couldn't use an iris scan.

  • The cards will also enable people to access services more easily, and prevent access to those with no entitlement. And crucially, says the Home Office, the cards will help people live their everyday lives more easily, giving them a watertight proof of identity for use in daily transactions and travel.

    For most UK citizens, the card will take the form of the biometric passport now being piloted. These passports are due to start being issued from 2005, and will replace older passports as they are renewed. Biometric driving licenses are also proposed.

    At the same time, all EU and foreign nationals coming into the country for more than three months will have to obtain a biometric residence permit.

    The Government anticipates that 80% of the UK's adult population would have an ID card by 2013 if passports and driving licences are issued on the proposed biometric basis. The card would become compulsory thereafter for all UK residents, but only after a decision by the Cabinet and a vote in Parliament.

    The Criticisms

    Most critics point out that an identity card will not prevent terrorism.

    Civil rights group Liberty describes the notion that an ID card will deter a potential suicide bomber as "quite ridiculous". It uses the tragic events in Madrid earlier this year to demonstrate its point: "Spain has a compulsory ID scheme and the men believed responsible for the bomb attack all had authentic cards," said Liberty.

    Other critics point to the practicalities of the scheme, arguing that the Government’s record on successful IT projects is dire, and that the project will be unworkable and vastly expensive.

    Indeed the real purpose behind the scheme, according to critics, is not the identity card per se, but the national identity register that will be created behind the scenes to administer the card, and to which a large number of agencies and services will have access. This, say civil liberties groups, is a fundamental breach of privacy.

    According to the Federation for Information Policy Research, an "audit trail" will be created in a Government database every time the card is checked. This trail will show every organisation that has checked an individual's card, allowing information held by those organisations to be accessed under other government powers or court order.

    The audit trail can be accessed for a range of purposes including the investigation of crime committed by a large number of people in a common purpose – such as GM crop protestors – and can be stored indefinitely.

    Ian Brown, Director of FIPR, commented: "It is unfortunate that the Home Office is fixated on ID cards when there are many more workable measures that could be taken to fight terrorism. We can only hope that the Cabinet members that have opposed these plans take this last opportunity to stop this legislation going forward."

    Privacy International's Director, Simon Davies, described the draft legislation as "draconian and dangerous" and said that the Bill has the potential to permanently change Britain for the worse.

  • The Draft Bill itself

    The Draft Bill sets out the legislative framework needed to build the scheme, including:


    Setting up the ‘national identity register’ – the key database of personal information that the biometric cards would link to. Each person will have his or her own unique National Identity Registration Number;

    Empowering the Secretary of State to order a person to register or, if the data is known, to register the person without consent;

    Empowering the Secretary of State to require persons holding information that may be used to validate an entry in the Register, to give him that information;

    Setting up a requirement for individuals to notify the Register of any relevant change in their circumstances, including any loss or damage of their Identity Card;

    Creating a ‘family’ of ID cards, based on designated existing and new documents;

    Empowering the Secretary of State to authorise various agencies, including the police and Inland Revenue, to access the database, although some privacy safeguards on the disclosure and use of information, and a requirement for independent oversight are included;

    Establishing new criminal offences for the possession of false identity documents – covering the new identity card as well as existing identity documents, such as the passport and driving license;

    Enabling a date to be set when it would become compulsory to register and be issued with a card (but not compulsory to carry a card, which is specifically prohibited in the Draft Bill). This provision could be brought in only following a vote in both Houses of Parliament on a detailed report which sets out all the reasons for the proposed move to compulsion and how the Government proposes to implement it;

    Setting out the civil and criminal penalties required to make the scheme effective and to guard against abuse of the scheme. These range from a £1,000 fine to two years imprisonment – with up to ten years' imprisonment if convicted of possessing forged documents. It includes, for example, a civil fine of up to £2,500 for the failure to provide personal information when the cards become compulsory;

    Enabling regulations to be made, once the scheme is compulsory, to make it a requirement to use an identity card to provide proof of identity to access public services;

    What information can be held on the database and measures to prevent ‘function creep’; and

    Empowering the Secretary of State to change almost all elements of the scheme by means of an Order, which is usually subject to Parliamentary approval.
    Timeframe

    Following the trial currently being carried out on the next-generation passport, and a consultation into the draft Identity Card bill announced yesterday, it looks likely that the bill will be laid before Parliament in the autumn.

    If all goes according to the Home Office plan, the first biometric passports will be issued during 2005, with voluntary ID cards available after 2007. The uptake of ID cards, passports and driving licenses will gradually increase until 2013 when, with around 80% of the population expected to have one of these documents, a Parliamentary vote on making ID cards compulsory is expected.
  • good post there gumps

    but at least the UKIC is not saying he's against it, just get it right rather than going off half cocked.........sound advice
  • Gumps, what's your take on the cards?
  • dog'e? dog'e? what the hell's a dog'e?

    dog's
  • But i often don't have a stable current address
    (my lifestyle at the fringes of society as a terrorist means I move around too much - not to mention my not living in the same house for more than a few months during term-time)
  • 49. First supplementary memorandum submitted by the Editors of Data Protection and Privacy Practice


    INTRODUCTION

    We present our views to the Home Affairs Select Committee as the Editors of Data Protection and Privacy Practice, published by Masons, a leading international firm of solicitors with a strong IT practice, especially in the field of privacy, FOI and data protection. The views expressed here do not represent the views of the firm and we have no objection to these views being published.


    We present our comments in a series of recommendations (summarised below) followed by a brief explanation; if further detail is needed, please contact us. We apologise for going over your recommended word length, but we raise several new points which became apparent only after text of the draft ID Card Bill was published.


    Our recommendations to the Committee are summarised as follows:



    1. We invite the Committee to conclude that the original focus on an ID/entitlement card scheme upon a mechanism for establishing identity has been replaced by an emphasis on the central database of registrable facts.

    2. We invite the Committee to conclude that for most part, the contents of the central database of registrable facts have nothing to do with establishing identity or entitlement.

    3. We invite the Committee to conclude that the central database of registrable facts is needed mainly in order to link diverse Government databases together and/or to serve the needs of the law enforcement agencies.

    4. We invite the Committee to conclude that the central database of registrable facts should not contain audit trails of ID card use that can be accessed, in secret, by the security services and police in order to identify the services used by every citizen.

    5. We invite the Committee to conclude the Data Protection Act will not afford much privacy protection in relation to the collection and use of registrable facts on the central database.

    6. We invite the Committee to conclude that public support for the introduction of an ID Card has been obtained in the absence of an informed public debate about the nature of the central database of registrable facts.

    7. We invite the Committee to conclude that the provisions in the draft ID Card Bill which grant powers to Ministers to draft wide regulations which can impact on privacy are not subject to effective scrutiny.
  • Chimpy, you are so naughty.

    How's his dog going to reach the scanning thing?
  • You'll be OK once you are in Holloway Duck Girl..... We will know where you are for years !!!!
  • I've changed my haircut and my name since my fence-cutting proteting days so hopefully I'm off any records ;-) ... still don't think I'll ever be offered a job at MI5 though ...

    ID cards ... hmmm.... don't see the point of them unless it is compulsory to carry one - which in the UK's case, I don't think it will be - and I would object strongly to being forced to carry ID at all times...

    I don't live in the UK, and here in Iceland we have an ID number - the kennitala, which a bit like a social security number - which *is* our ID. If you order a pizza, get a phone contract, get a job, hire a car, or whatever you have to give this number. It is linked to your address and bank account which straight away does away with the whole 'leaving a deposit' thing when you hire something AS YOU CAN BE TRACED!!! IT also means that you never have to give your address, as the number is all that is needed to confirm everything anyone needs to know about you. I've been here too long to know if this is a breach of civil liberties; even the most radical Icelanders I know (who aren't very radical at all) can't even undertand the concept of having a kennitala being an assault on their civil liberties.

    The only compulsion here is that you *have* to carry your driving licence when you drive a car. Really, don't have a problem with that. Far less hassle than the UK version "present your driving licence to the police station in 7 days."
  • Don't keep the dogs for more than a few years anyway. & iris scanning wouldn't work on a lot of VI people who don't have dogs.
  • Perhaps they'll have self-scan like they used to have in SafeWay.
  • more at http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200304/cmselect/cmhaff/130/130we58.htm


    My take it that it's currently unlawful.

    The Govt is not clear what they want and have made significant changes since the public consultation.

    It's a load of bollocks Bleurgh and his cronies talking about protecting us from terror - as a previos poster pointed out how many terrorists will carry cards?

    It strikes of the nanny state.

    The implementaiton of id cards to frre the world of terror is actually an infringement on our liberites


    For the records I have nothing to hide.

  • You could solve all the issues by telling him he is OBL. He can't tell. Mind you, his dog may be the key to the nations security then and you would have to have doggy height iris scans.

    Anyone called Iris have a take on this?

    Duck, have you got pink hair?
  • Holloway - picnic. Don't you know Belmarsh is where they send the politicos these days?
    Though being a high-up organiser, might just be trucked straight off to Guantanamo...
    Least there doubt I'll have to carry ID.
  • From Liberty:

    "The Government now states that ID cards will help to:

    protect against terrorism. Yet the hijackers who attacked the World Trade Centre had ID, as did those alleged to have carried out the Madrid bombings.
    prevent abuse of the public services, yet 90% of benefit fraud does not involve the use of a false identity.
    make your passport more secure and enable you to travel more easily abroad. Yet this rests on un-tested biometric technology, do you trust the Government to successfully develop this hi-tech project when so many have failed and run massively over budget?"
  • Do you lot carry your driving licence and stuff around with you?

    I never carry any id - other than a cash card. and I dont carry that around all the time.

    There is no way I would carry proof of ID on me all the time, I certainly dont need one card to centralise my info. If they forced us to Id be inclined to join Duck Girls Terrorist organisation. ;-)
  • nope - pink's far too easy to spot when hiding amongst bushes at Buckingham Palace plotting how to overthrow the Royals. 's more muddy-coloured. Definitely NOT ginger.
    Am vegan though.
  • Guantanamo.... Thing we could fill it up to the brim....... Haven't heard many protest recently about people being held there.... or have they all been let out ?
  • am not bothered at all by the terrorist thingie - as peeps have said - these guys will always get through the systems...

    but imho an all-in-one card will just make general life easier rather than carrying things that duplicate information over and over again......

  • In my purse
    Several library cards
    3 for different photocopiers
    Donor card
    student card
    old student card
    dead bus pass
    CND membership card
    bit of paper telling me how to ask for non-animal food in lots of languages
    student rail pass
    debit card stays at home in case i lose it & 'cos cash doesn't allow them to profile your shopping habits in the same way
  • DtS - it's the because the media have got bored of that story and have "moved on" (copyright T Blair)
  • but i don't actually want any one government dept to know all about me & what i do.
  • DtS - am off tonight to talk by relative of one of the British people who's still in there without charge or trial
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