Hard Marathon Training with Mike Gratton

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  • As a 21F, I've been actively discouraged from marathon even though it's what I love running, & as for ultra running, everyone seems to think I'm utterly insane & should wait until my 30's & concentrate on 10k for now. But I don't like 10k - not really interested in under 20m.
    Should I be training for fast mara times yet? I've been running since 14, entered my first mara about 1 1/2 years ago, done 5 since, next big goal is Thames Meander (54m in Feb), mileage last yr around 70mpw & serious rowing (not rowing now).
  • HillyHilly ✭✭✭
    Lol Mike, not sure I could live up to no.1!:o)

    That's interesting URR about PR' father.

    Duck Girl- 5 marathons already at 21-that's very good. What times have you been doing?
  • Omigod - the hard training schedule sounds horrendous! I really want to do a spring marathon and was looking to follow this schedule, but when I saw the first week!!! I did a 10 mile race today with 2 miles before & after - the idea of running later just does not appeal ( mind you - I've only started reading this, so it was too late to put into practice! The main thing that concerns me is that there doesnt appear to be much about age related training. I read about looking after yourself as you get older, but this schedule just seems so much. WoulD cross-training on those skiing type machines that simulate running be the same as running. It would take the impact off the legs & you'd still get the aerobic benefit. I can just see overuse injuries occurring for the likes of me. I'm 46.
    In the 10mile today I was really disappointed to run 66 (nearly 67) a minute slower than at Brampton 2 weeks ago - mind you I did have a week from hell which culminated on being obliged to go on the most awful night out (or any kind of night) that I have ever had on Fri night - getting home at 2.00pm with lungs full of smoke (never, ever to be repeated!)I had already decided that I was going to have a bad time & if someone had suggested that we just do a training run, I would have immediately agreed. Is the key to not take part in many races? Also one needs to build up to this kind of mileage - isnt it 5% per week. Maybe as is pointed out - you have to adapt the schedule. Well, I will now have to rethink - help someone - isnt there anyone who is daunted by the hard training schedule
    (I'll pretend the elite doesnt exist!)
  • Only been 21 for 3 wweks now!
    Did my first in New zealand off literally no training beyond having spent a few months previously seriously hillwalking
    (entered on a whim 2 days before, previous longest-ever run a 10k in 56min 3 years previous)
    Christchurch NZ 4:12 - walked mile 23 as very wheezy
    Hawkes Bay NZ 3:41 - very hilly, esp. in last 10k, about 6 weeks after Christchurch, did all my training solo running round an island less than 5k long.
    Cardiff 4:00:02.56 (grr for chip timing) - off the plane 2 days before, jetlag & travellers tum
    Edinburgh 4:25ish (knee injury at 4m, knocked self out by running into lamppost at 20m, very disappointed)
    Cardiff 3:59:26 (yay for chip timing) - entered at last minute as unable to train seriously over summer due to knee injury from Edinburgh, also had to start meds 3 days before & was warned by doc 'these will absolutely floor you with tiredness for at least a week'
    So lots of excuses, but don't really feel Ive done a potentail PB yet - hope to get sub 3:30 in next 2 yrs (depending on whether i go for ultras or straight maras - next mara is FLM but have Thames Meander 54m ultra in Feb which will break up training - is it still feasible to go for a fast FLM as well as TM? I'm only aiming to finish the TM as an introduction to ultras, rather than race it.
    I'm daunted, but then again, I LOVE running, so anything taht's a good excuse to do more...
  • HillyHilly ✭✭✭
    FAS-firstly well done on yet another good time, even though slower than your last race! Secondly, yes the schedules are quite something! I can't envisage myself doing all the runs-14 a week would be too much for me.

    I think the general increase per week is actually 10%, but for someone who is already well trained I think you could increase more than 10%.
  • MG - interesting you mention base training as some of us were getting slaughtered on here a year ago for advocating the concept. In fact one poster even told us he had met you and you had not mentioned it in conversation, which invalidated the idea:)

    Re. shoes - what type of footwear were you doing your 140mpw in? Was it the heavily cushioned shoes in vogue today or racing flats?
  • Duck Girl
    Don't think there's any hard and fast rule, but training for and running shorter distances ie 10k will help bring marathon times down.
    My fastest marathon was after a winter of training for a fast 10k.
    Would limit marathons to a max of 2 a year if you do want to get faster or just concentrate on 1.
    Ultras????talk to Hippo, think she's done a few
  • Hi FAS, As you indicated at the end of your posting, you need to take out of the schedules what is applicable to you - they are deliberately set at the highest level, rather than the very cautious schedules normally printed - and they are definitely not for everyone.

    As a rule I'm not keen on printed schedules as they can't take into account everyones circumstances, such as age, time available, work commitments, etc, but the trick is to be able to make adjustments to your training based on the general guide. As it is mostly based on 'time-on-feet' a slower runner will do less mileage than a faster runner, so there is some natural compensation for ability already there.

    The amount of increase is another factor that the individual needs to assess as well. % increases don't really work as so much depends on background; some people can increase training very quickly, others have to advance more cautiously. As this is not an attepmt at personal coaching there is an element of me relying on commonsense by the reader - there will of course be a few who launch straight into 14 runs a week.
  • Base training is an arguement that has been going on for ever BR. There are cases for and agaist - Salazar apparently only ran around 70 miles a week and didn't do 20 mile runs, Rob d'Catella did 5 hr base runs in the hills - both ran 2.08 in the early 80's. However, Salazar was nearly a minute quicker than Deek over 10km, so who was relatively more successful at the marathon.

    I have always tended towards higher mileage, and from seeing the schedules of most of the champions it would seem that 120 miles a week was the norm and most practiced some sort of periodisation. One of the greatest distance runners of all time, Viren, is known to have spent long periods running lots of slow miles at high altitudes in S. America before returning to Finland in the summer to do his speed work...there are loads of examples.

    I was sponsored by Nike so wore what I was given, but they were your standard production Pegasus and the like.
  • Duck Girl, There is no reason why you shouldn't run marathons at your age. However, as I don't know you I would hesitate to give advice of the quantity of running you are doing. My advice is to find a good coach who will get to know you and be able to guide you properly as it may be that you do need some holding back and encouragement to do some of the shorter distance to help you get better at the longer ones.
  • MG2 - Alberto had 92% slow twitch muscles fibres, maybe he could do without. However, he was doing many long runs when he won the Comrades in 1994. Deek's coach, Pat Clohessy was a big fan of Lydiard, no suprise a lot of base work.
  • Dear mike,
    I'd love to follow the schedule - my target time is 3:30 having shaved off 15 mins last year. My never ending problem is that I work at sea for a week at a time and only have access to a treadmill which doesn't have an incline facility - I usually concentrate my long runs on my week off. Any ideas how I could adjust the schedule to fit in my "lab rat" existence on the treadmill or am I just on a loser?
    cheers
    Bill
  • MinksMinks ✭✭✭
    This is fascinating, and I shall lurk with interest! Hilly, just read what you said about your pace initially dropping alarmingly as your mileage increased. This is encouraging, as I'm trying to get out of my 'one pace fits all' (!) approach by deliberately slowing down on my long and easy runs. It's quite hard to force myself to do this as I naturally want to run faster, although as my mileage increases I'll probably be tired and will naturally slow down anyway.

    I've always had difficulty trusting that running slowly won't end up making me slow, so it's reassuring to be reminded that there was a point where you were running 10-11 minute miles! I'm trying to slow down to between 9 and 10 minute miles for long, easy and recovery runs and it's hard not be scared that I won't be able to run 8 minute miles again!
  • I think what you are already doing is an idel compromise Bill. If you work on a high mileage week/low mileage week rotation you might find you can handle a bit more on the land weeks knowing that there is a rest week coming up. if the tread mill is good enough you could use the sea weeks to do the speed work - say 3 interval type sessions in a 7 day period. It's never going to be perfect, but it can be done. Ingrid Christianson did some work on treadmills because of the Norweigen winters before she set her worlds best with 2.21 way back in the 80's.
  • thanks for the encouragement Mike - I shall see what i can do! The biggest problem is the boredom factor; when I'm out and about the miles fly past but on a treadmill it's painful as i only have a blank wall and a stereo for company! I've resorted to hiding the display. i've also been told that the pace on a treadmill is different to an actual running pace. I've also experimented with an HRM but the ship's electrics cause too much interference for it to be effective.Are there any past RW articles or specific books on treadmill training that you or others know of?
  • It seems this mileage debate will run and run - personally I have completed 9 marathons over the last 9 years ranging from 2.58 to 2.43 with various different approaches to training & mileage.

    This year I have tred to keep a base of speed going over the summer (5K's) and am now finding upping the mileage less demanding than previous efforts.

    I ran the best time in London 2000 off the least mileage and aged 31 ( weekly average 43 miles Jan Feb Mar) but had more pace than all the other years.

    What times are the hard training sessions for?
  • HillyHilly ✭✭✭
    Minks, I think your best bet is to look at McMillan calculator and put in your best time over a particular distance, it will then give you the speeds you should be running for different kinds of sessions.

    I think the reason my pace dropped so dramatically was I was running 7 days a week so no rest days. It took a while to adjust to that, but I did after about a month.
  • Will be trying to use some of the tips as I would like to change my marathon training. I especially like the 'time on your feet' aspect rather than always going by miles. Definitely makes it a bit easier to fit it into the daily routine. And Hilly, thanks for sharing about the decrease in per mile times as you increased the mileage at first. That would have had me worried too!!
  • MinksMinks ✭✭✭
    That's what I've done, Hilly, and I've been working with the paces it gave me for the different kinds of sessions.

    The recovery/easy running is VERY easy though and I just wanted to be reassured that it really won't make me slower long-term!

    I'm currently having two rest days a week, which is about right for the moment. Last FLM I trained on 4 days a week - I spent a couple of months over the summer/autumn getting used to the extra day before I started building the mileage. Aiming to get to around 50 mpw at the peak of this year's schedule, with lots of weeks in the mid-40s. Last time my highest week was 40 miles and the majority were between 25 and 35 so hopefully that should be enough to reduce my time by at least 15 minutes.
  • HillyHilly ✭✭✭
    For my first marathon I peaked at about 45 miles, with most of my weeks being less. I think we have to find what suits us and works. Good luck, I'm sure you'll do well:o)
  • Whats the argument for rest days vs recovery? At what point/mileage do you need to be running where active recovery is more beneficial than a rest day, or does it really make any difference. At the moment I'm running 40mpw and increasing this by resting only one day instead of 2 and upping my long runs. I dont have the time to train twice a day, but I can make all my runs a bit longer, my mid week runs are normally an 8, an 11 and a 6 mile speed session on a track, and a recovery run of about 45mins. What are the benefits to splitting the milege instead of doing it all at once?
  • Rob - as MG pointed out earlier, your marathon training is not just what you do in the 14 weeks before the race, but the work you've done for months and years before that. Maybe your 2:43 came after a period of higher mileage followed by what was a period of fewer but faster miles.
  • Hi MG I would like to have a go at your schedule but with a few modification to fit around family life ie 2 x daily running only 3 days aweek.I would like some advice as to what sort of time I should aim at .I have done 5 FLM since 1999 starting at 4;06 when I started running and this year did 2;57 and felt really good a the end.However I am not so fast over shorter distances with 18;30 as PB at 5k and 1;24 at halfM although I ve been a minute off that all this year. Any thoughts on what would be a realistic goal if I put in the work?
  • Forgot to say I am female and 40!!
  • Hi Tricks and Minks, I would say you don't need to be thinking about twice a-day until you have got the most out of the days you are doing. So if you are running 5 days a week, stay on this until you feel that you can't improve any more on that schedule, then maybe move to 6 times a week then 7. Really, twice a day running will be for those already with a big background.

    It is the big background that also makes active recovery possible, so for most people still developing towards this level then taking a complete running rest day will be benificial.

    Puffin, You half points towards your full marathon PB being close to your potential...if you are high in slow twitch muscle it is possible for you to get to the point where there is little difference between your half & marathon pace - i.e. you go through half in a marathon close to your half PB. If this is the case don't rule out going under 2.55. I went through half in LM 83 in 64.10 with second half in 65.30 when my PB was 63 mins. for the half. Trainign for sustained pace will achieve this via high numbers of intervals at 10km speed.
  • Rob, The schedules are not specific to times, although the quantity of running will probably suit the most ambitious runners. It assumes that not all runners want to be considered beginners all the time just because they are not at the sharp end of races. The quantity can be done by anyone commited to training regularly as the duration is based on time and the speed work - when we get to it - will be based on relative race speed. I think a longer term commitment to training starting now will benifit everyone who has maintained a regular running habit, rather than picking up a schedule that starts at a low base and builds in stages to a peak of mileage a couple of weeks before the marathon.

    The principle here is to do the bulk first to establish a huge base, then get faster as the marathon approaches.
  • HillyHilly ✭✭✭
    Puffin-you have very good times! You're the same age as me, but I'm slower, but hoping to get a little faster!:o)
  • Hi Mike

    This is really interesting, I have been wondering how to train for London and since training with you at Club la Santa I really value your advise so I would like to try to follow the first schedule.

    I will have to ease myself into it as I have only been running 5 sessions a week (I was doing 7 or 8 in the run up to Dublin)- it sounds like I need to slow myself down a bit to increase the milage. I will be up at 7am tomorrow morning for the first time in a long while.
  • well like everyone else i have entered the FLM has anyone NOT Heard weather they are running the FLM or not, if i have NOT heard anything what do i do and how do i contact the FLM PLEASE its only 7 days to go.
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