Hard Marathon Training with Mike Gratton

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  • Just to interject - my dad has been running for 25 years untuil he had disc problems etc, and can now only swim and cycle properly

    He found that Tonic water really helped with calf cramps. Might be a cheap way of countering them. Worth a try!!

    Enjoyed the last few posts..

  • Hmm, my scan showed I had got a broken bone I didn't even know about: a rib! As I am currently in no pain in that area, and have no memory of having rib pain after any of my various falls, the radiographer said it could be due to the heavy coughing I did when I had pneumonia and pleurisy back in 2007!

    Why am I so weary today after a 6.8 mile slow run this morning?

  • cealceal ✭✭✭

    WS
    Re your calf cramp. I have been a sufferer too. I sweat buckets when I run, I start sweating by the time I have run for 7 mins. I was often woken in the night with violent calf cramps. Horrible, I would be fearful of dropping off to sleep again sometimes in case I was afflicted yet again. I can identify also with the movements in the calf like there is something alive in them crawling about.

    Some time in the summer I started to make up a litre of SIS GO and I drink about a glass full before I ran then the rest straight afterwards. I have only had cramp once since then and that was on a night when I hadn't run the day before, hence no Go had been drank. I have no concrete proof that this is what has prevented my cramps, but it seems to be my solution.

    The triathletes always carry salt tablets of some sort when they are training and racing.

  • Blue, thanks for the comments. Yes, I will take a very positive experience from the Amsterdam race. Keep the nature reports coming. Down in Shropshire I don't see such variety of wildlife but the usual mix of buzzards, foxes, badgers and bunnies keep me excited. Following a barn owl down the road earlier this year was my highlight.

    SC your maladies sound very unpleasant - please ignore them all and take up your GFA place (yes easy to say I know). Have to admit I've really enjoyed the tri training but with Winter arriving I'm not a happy biker and my enthusiasm for another marathon is at an all time high. It needs to be a flat early spring race so I can train and race half IM again in the Summer (or maybe even further....) and so I have booked my flight to Barcelona for the marathon on 1 March. Likely to be warm but flat and fast. The big build up starts in mid November.

     I'm not a great recoverer from marathons and this week has been one swim, two 8 mile bike rides and finally a 5m run yesterday. Started fien but as it went on some of that stiffness from the marathon started working back into my muscles rather than disappearing. Nothing today so I'll ease back into running a bit more this week and also have a massage scheduled for Wednesday.

     WS Sensible comments re cramps - crisps and bananas all good. Tonic water good because of the quinine in it (apparently...). You might also want to try Nuun or Nunn electrolyte tablets which lots of running or bike shops have. They make a decent drink. Hope something works for you.

  • Eb Many thanks for your encouraging remarks. I have to admit that I am feeling quite positive today after a 10 mile run in the rain in deepest Somerset, where I have been for the weekend (with my beau!). That brings me to a 33 mile week, with runs on 6 out of the 7 days. And so far, so good. Next weekend, I'm going to attempt 11 or 12 miles. But I don't need to take any decisions about the marathon until around Christmas. My entry is sorted.

    As for you, pleased to hear you're also feeling maratho-positive.

    I wonder how Dids et al got on...? 

  • SC - well, blow me, but I ran a PB. Just.

    Bought a pair of Mizuno Precision the night before from the expo (risky perhaps), ran by heart-rate monitor and did ALMOST EXACT equal splits of 1:21:19 and 1:21.23! Never felt as strong in a race...can only conclude the Anglesey marathon of 5 weeks ago was an assist not a hindrance (who knows?), as are HRMs (definately)!

    I just looked at UK Athletics data to see where my ranking will be. The person above me, just 3 secs faster is...."Paula Radcliffe"!

  • Fantastic run Dids, you amaze me because you seem to be able to ignore all the "Normal" beliefs for marathon running, yet still get better and better.

    I look forward to seeing you progress towards another pb in London?

    I was away this weekend with my wife to celebrate our wedding anniversary, I popped the telly on yesterday morning to see the report about the OMM. My heart filled with dread as I listened to the story unfolding, I'd got a pal and his brother competing in it. Thankfully a few phone calls later I was delighted to hear that his had brother sustained an injury in the 1st hour so they pulled out.

    Now it appears that the race organisers are being slaughtered by the media for not cancelling the race sooner. Ain't it great that the media can say such things when they've got the benefit of hindsight! However it has to be said that the weather forecast was fairly grim for the weekend.

  • Well, my legs are obviously better than my eyesight....Paula Radcliffe is, of course, 10 mins and 3 seconds faster!!!
  • That's a great run LD, an excellent time. Your constant improvement is inspirational.

     A query, how has your weight changed, if at all, over the last few years as you have got faster?

  • Also ran Frankfurt, 2hr 55m, 16 seconds outside pb. Been plauged with lowerback/hamstring/sciatica for the past two months which reared its ugly head after only 1 mile! Also found that I was compensating the pain with a slightly different running action which by 9 miles resulted in huge blister on the foot of the painful leg. Was hoping for 2.48/2.49 but pleased with time considering but its obvious I was in much better shape back in the spring. Recovery now then I'll go again next spring.
  • Great run LD - just goes to show that taking a risk (new shoes for the race) can pay off.

    SC you sound so much more positive about running now than you did a couple of months ago- its really encouraging.

    WSS - hope you sort the cramp out (and get your champs start!).

    I did 3:41 at Beachy Head - good enough for 26th, and 14 mins faster than I ran it two years ago so I'm very happy. Best of all though, my legs are fine - in fact today I have hardly any stiffness at all, which leads me to suspect I didn't run hard enough on saturday... 

    Not sure where to go from here - I'd like to have a go at a sub 3 flat marathon, but I'm not sure how realistic that is - I guess I'm probably in 3:05-3:15ish shape based on my Beachy Head time, but I think I need hills... I've got a flat 10K in a few weeks, then a flat HM in February, so those should give me a better clue.

  • Eb - getting weight down to what I'd like has been a constant battle for me. I am probably about 3lbs lighter now than I was 3 or 4 years ago....I know I'm not fat, but at 11st 2lbs (approx) I know I am a good 6-8lbs heavier than an Elite Kenyan would be at my height.

    New trainers really were great. My feet finished smoother than a babies bottom!

  • Fab runs lads! (i.e. Lord D and his running mate, Slightly). Very inspiring indeed. Never give up hope and keep on training is the message for that.

    I'm a Mizuno precision fan too!

    SamIAm - thanks for your support. I am feeling a small swelling of hope, but I don't dare hope for too much.

    On the subject of weight - I have been adopting a new strategy recently - I have stopped weighing myself. This was very scary at first, but I kept telling myself if I ate right  and ran the weight would take care of itself. I got very depressed about my weight while I was off for 4 months, and ended up comfort-eating because I couldn't run and because I was getting fat. I went over 9 stone. I then decided to get a grip, got a new man (who specifically was looking for a skinny woman, but he made do with me), and just try to eat fewer calories than I estimate I burn up, but not so few I feel ill. This weekend, after 6 weeks of this regime, and having no idea what the scales say, I wore my second-skinniest jeans for a weekend away with said new man, and they felt loose. And he keeps telling me I could put on half a stone. So I guess I've lost weight - without obsessing about what the scales say every morning.  Now to get into my size 4s....

  • SamIAM - forgot to congratulate you on a great run at Beachy Head! May one ask what age/gender you are? I can't discern from your nom de plume.
  • Thanks SC - I'm male and staring down the barrel of 40 (next month).

    I started running 3 years ago in an attempt to lose weight gained when I stopped smoking.  Being weak-willed I ended up running and smoking for a while, both half-heartedly, and then got injured followed by a big dose of the CBAs for 9 months when I concentrated mainly on eating and smoking. Finally, inspired a bit by this thread, I ditched the ciggies for good and replaced them with more running and have never felt better. I could still do with shifting a kg or two (it will be a while before I have to worry about how much my shoes weigh!) but I'm going to assume that will come off gradually if I keep up the mileage.

  • slightly, well done on an excellent race, to be just 16 seconds outside your pb and running with an injury is testament to how far you've come in the last couple of years........Is a championship place awaiting you in the next couple of years?

    Sam......well done you for kicking the fags into touch, I did the same thing when I was getting close to 40 after I'd been smoking for 25+ years. now when I'm out on a run i can smell a smoker from about 40 yards!!!!.

    Stick with the running and you'll never touch another one, and save yourself a fortune into the bargain.

  • Sam You are on the right path, as you know. As well as Tony being an ex-smoker, so am I. I was a 40 Marlboro red a day from the age of 18 until 27. My Mum, Dad and younger sister all smoked heavily too. My Mum died at the age of 42 from lung cancer when I was 21, so that got me thinking, and I tried to give up, but didn't succeed until my daughter was born in 1983. I gave up on 27 July that year, and took up running (I had been a schoolgirl athlete) at the same time. It's a powerful addiction, so well done on giving it up. Running helps me stay stopped, or perhaps it's a replacement addiction!

    I had a good session last night while coaching. The session was 6 x 1 mile reps at threshold pace with 80, 80, 70, 70, 60 recoveries. I set myself the aim of doing 4 and managed them in 7:20 (into wind); 7:05 (wind behind); 7:21 (into) and 7:15 (wind behind). Avg HR for each reps were 147, 154, 157 and 155, so they were a tad above the target effort level. But what is pleasing is that last week I was managing about 7:35 pace for my threshold session. So I am improving already, but still way off my peak form (even given my great age) 

    On the downside however, I was feeling great after the session, came home, showered and made myself some dinner (steamed broccoli, feta cheese, salad and 2 Ryvita) and then an hour later became ill with nausea and a blinding headache. So I've been up most of the night though mercifully not actually sick this time. I guess I hadn't washed the broccoli properly perhaps? Today I don't feel like eating at all and have only drunk isotonic drinks to try and shift the heacache, and I'm off work, still getting bouts of nausea.  

    No doubt Eb will be amused at yet another malady, but I get pretty scared when I get ill like that, living on my own.

  • SC I'm honestly not amused as that sounds horrible. Could your blood sugar be low after running and not adequately replacing carbohydrates (or some other technical medical terms). Your dinner strikes me as inadequate for someone who has run between 6 or 7 miles including 4 at a fast pace. I'd be on a big cake and a couple of choccy bars after that....
  • Eb - I don't know, but it's happened again today. I ate a bowl of porridge with water at lunchtime, then about 4pm, since I felt a lot better, I went out for a run and it was so beautiful out I did 8 miles. I drank some diet coke when I got in, and had a Jaffa Cake, then about 40 minutes later started feeling nauseous again, so I had some Rego recovery I found in my cupboard. Then I had a slice of pizza and salad about 2 hours after running, and it was a real struggle to eat it. And now I feel really nauseous again. That's the second day in a row with post-run nausea - never had it before: what is going on? I am struggling to eat at the moment.
  • Its good to know other people have kicked smoking - I guess I probably have around 25 years of smoking behind me too - what a plonker. Like SC - I do sometimes fee like I've just replaced one addiction with another, but it doesn't bother me because as addictions go at least running is essentially free and (injuries aside) generally good for you.

    Get well soon SC - it sounds horrible - hopefully just a stomach bug? Apart from the porridge it sounds like pretty much everything you've eaten has brought on nausea.

    edited to add: One way to check whether it is post run nausea or a stomach bug would be to not run tomorrow - if you feel OK then try a run the day after - if you get nauseous again then that would suggest something running related rather than a tummy bug.

  • Hope your feeling better SC.

    Cheers TTT, I set out more cautious for Frankfurt compared to Hamburg back in the Spring where there I had targeted 2.45. On the day I was still on track for around 2.45 at 25k but the heat on the day resulted in a shocking final 10k where in Frankfurt the conditions were perfect. Last Sunday I set out for 2.48/2.49 and my splits were very consistant however with the pain in the hamstring area and lower back plus the whopping blister resulted the final couple of miles being around the 7.20 pace however my split pace for the final .2 miles was 6.30 pace. I went through halfway 3 mins slower than Hamburg thinking I would be able to pick it up in the second half, sadly that not being the case, 2nd half 5 mins slower. Looking back my build up for this one has been pretty good but my speed sessions not as consistant as previous due to the hamstring/back issue but not sure whether these affected last Sunday. Today legs feel good, odd twinge in back but my blistered foot is still painful so I've no desire to start running just yet, thinking of a good 2-3 weeks of doing nothing. Will target 2.45 again, not sure if it's possible but I'm certain I have a sub 2.50 in me.

    Plug for Frankfurt, great marathon with a red carpet finish and organised to perfection. Also LD booked the hotel which was only around 500m or so from the start/finish and the 35k point was right outside the hotel so was able to grab a powerade from supporting Mrs Slightly and Lady Dids as I went past.

  • Tom.Tom. ✭✭✭
    "Mrs Slightly and Lady Dids" - sounds like Wood and Walters to me.

    Karen - hope your feeling better this evening. With respect your eating habits seem a bit sparse to me, but then I'm a bit of an undisciplined guzzler. Not withstanding that I've lost 7lbs over the past six weeks. Although I'm down to within 3-4lbs of my best racing weight, I'm still 25 secs a mile off my best racing speed!!

    Last Sundays 10M - 64:25, sadly lacking, despte the WAVA of 85.4%: "Could do better"
  • Looking forward to the National XC Relays tomorrow afternoon at Mansfield. With the recent weather we should be up for some "real" xc conditions especially as the seniors race is the last one to be run, this should result in a lot of mud to slip around in.

    I'm not too sure how well I will go though, as I have started to get some consistent mileage in for the last few weeks along with some quality track sessions, add to this training through the race and I'm into new territory, I just hope that I don't let the rest of the guys down.

  • Tom That's a really decent performance  - you are going well after all your injuries. So just be happy with that for now!

    I wish I could get back to 85.4% age-graded, but I have no real idea of just how slow I am since I haven't raced since May 25th. Must put a race in my diary. Perhaps a 10k or something in December might be good.

    Duration of consistent training of course is a much more important factor in race speed than being a few lbs over your ideal weight.

    I have only a rough idea of how much I weigh these days, since I have given up weighing myself. So long as I can see my ribs and hip-bones then that'll do me - it means I'm back to racing weight. But I am not quite there yet and still guess I'm a few lbs over. But it is coming off slowly. I would estimate I am 8 stone 10 to 8 stone 12, but I can't be sure. I peaked at 9 stone 4 when I wasn't running. So I am trying to be careful. Having said which, I started to feel a bit funny after a 5.5 miler this evening, so I've just had a mini-Toblerone bar while I make my salad! Maybe this nausea will go when my weight has stabilised. But at least it doesn't scare me any more.

  • quick report from the National XC relays. This is the first time I've done a big event like this and I have to say I was really impressed with everything about it....the support, the course, the organisation and also the chance to compete at the same time as some of our countries best runners.

    Having said that I finished in 19:00 well down the field, a comparison is that the really fast boys were doing 15:00. If you are interested here's the link to the results, you should find a few people who you know of in them as all the big clubs were represented along with some of the smaller ones.     http://www.englishcrosscountry.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=45

  • Hmm, - nausea again after a threshold session this evening. This is getting annoying.
  • National XC TTT - sounds like the big time.

    SC sorry to hear you are still struggling with nausea.

     After a massage last week my legs feel like they are zipping along and feel much recovered from the marathon. Just in time, in fact, to start an 18 week build up to an early Spring marathon inspired by Slightly and LD's feats. I recall not so long ago that Slightly was hovering around the 3.15 mark and now has expectations of comfortably finishing in the 2.5x's or lower. So 2.55 is my South-Manchester-inspired aim!

  • Eb; you only have to be a member of a UKA club to be able to run..................not much of a qualification. you are more than capable of your goal time, you just have to start beleiving in yourself a bit more. As for South Manchester being inspirational it has to be said there are a few good runners from that neck of the woods, including the lad who was fastest at National XC S. Vernon of Stockport Harriers.

    Good track session last night with 3x1 mile in 5:34, 5:40 and 5:40, quite chuffed with that.

  • eb.....did you see match of the day last night?image

    there was some good football played.

  • SC - Nausea.  I suffered from Nausea when I attempted anything hard after I was injured in 2007.  As I have got fitter the feelings have subsided. 

    Unfortunately I have no idea why.  The only thing I could think of is that you and me were "memory running" i.e. we know how hard we can run but our bodies have lost too much fitness to do that, and we are pushing a bit too hard.

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