Speedwork blues

I'm following the RW FLM training schedule for a sub-4:30 time. I'm sure this is the right time for me as I've based it on my best 10K and 1/2M times (54:20 and 2:06:15 respectively) as the schedule suggests. The long runs and the tempo runs are fine, they fit with the sort of pace I run anyway, and the mileage seems OK.

But the speedwork paces are too fast for me - e.g. mile pace is given as 7:20min/mile, but I can't physically run that fast (I've tried on a treadmill and nearly fell off!) I did the first week's speedwork session on Tuesday this week, and decided simply to run the reps as fast as I could rather than trying to hit the 7:20 pace, but couldn't complete the session. I ended up taking over two minutes jogging/walking after each rep, as I'd run so fast 200m recovery wasn't enough, and then only did 5 reps - I ran out of energy and time (had to get ready for an interview!) My pace was only just under 8:00min/mile. I think I could have done the 6th rep had I not been so conscious of the time but it was a real relief to start jogging home and I really didn't enjoy the session - I know speedwork is not easy but that was the most demotivating session I've done.

I followed the RW schedule for my training for the Windsor 1/2M in September, and found the speedwork very tough but just about do-able, and the fastest pace set for that was 8:00min/mile. I can just about manage 400m reps with a couple of minutes recovery at that pace - however, the marathon schedule is asking me to run 1600m at a faster pace than that, in 2 weeks time! And the really scary one is the 800m reps at mile pace next week - I couldn't manage 400m running as fast as I could!

Will it be OK for me to do the speedwork sessions as fast as I can manage - i.e. does it matter if I don't hit the pace set in the schedule? Is it a problem if I have to take double the recovery time stated? Am I aiming for the wrong marathon time - should I be aiming for 5:00 or 5:30, or just to finish in whatever time it takes?

I must admit I'm feeling a bit depressed about it, everything else points to me achieving 4:30 but I don't know what to do about this speedwork. Any comments, helpful advice etc. gratefully received.....
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Comments

  • Fany - you don't have to slavishly stick to a schedule if you can't manage it, it's o.k. to tinker with it a bit. I suggest to relieve your mind, you keep the rest of the schedule but for speedwork adopt the 'Yasso 8s'. Bart Yasso a US RW staff person discovered that the time in mins/secs you run an 800m in corresponds to the time in hrs/mins you can expect for a marathon. This holds true whether you are a 2.30 marathoner or a 5 hour runner. Do 800m repeats in 4 mins 30, add one more repeat each week and run your last set about 10 days before the race.
  • FANY -

    I can see how you're depressed about it all, because basically the problem is that RW have once again over-compensated something rotten on the speedwork times. they claim as usual that it's because of the extra time you need to build in to cross the line, but my feeling (and experience) is that they're over-doing, and from the sound of the forum you're not the only one who's down about it.

    the other factor is that the first full week of January is hard going for pretty much everybody, especially on the speedwork front, and you may well find the times much more manageable in a few weeks time.

    for now the best plan is to do what you can, reduce the speed, increase the recovery, and build up slowly as you become more comfortable.

    don't abandon the schedules just yet cos they're usually pretty sound - certainly sounder than most. but ...

    I would say that launching you into mile reps in the first week of training seems like a big mistake on RW's part - are they really asking you to do this? the focus at this stage should be on hillwork and gradual introduction to speedwork via 400's. miles are definitely for later on down the line.

    finally, I'd second Ironwolf re: the Yasso 800's, a top work-out for the marathon distance and simultaneously a great guide to your final time. done properly it's not an easy work-out, though, so don't do it too often.

    best of luck.
  • Im doing this, as there is no 5 hour schedule
    The runs are fine, but the speedwork is IMPOSSIBLE
    no way!!!!!
  • I can only do 400s
    Mile reps, Noooooooooooooo
  • hippo -

    don't be blue (blue hippo, strange vision). like I said, doing mile reps this early on is asking a lot of anybody and is frankly as mistake schedule-wise. 400's are fine for now and perhaps a few short hills. please don't be discouraged - you're doing just fine and there's plenty of time to go.
  • Well i know i can finish achilles, Ive done a marathon, but, should i do my own speedwork, and longer runs than they suggest, is the speedwork silly cos the mileage is low
    Seems odd to base marathon time on doing a faster 10k
    oh well, what do i know
  • I find speed work impossible to complete
    in the gym, you may be better to do you
    speed work outdoors dont worry too much
    about accurate distance or time just go as fast as you can. I tend to overheat in the gym.
  • Fany - don't worry - I find the speedwork times impossible too - just do what you can and concentrate on maintaining a good progression....
  • Fany-just remember.....anything is better than nothing.....do what you can and try to add another rep whenever you think you can, you will be suprised how quickly they mount up.
    good luck
  • FANY - Along with you and all the other replyers I also find the speed unattainable. I certainly don't think you should lower your expected finishing time - my 10 km and 21 km times are similar to yours and I'm going for sub-4.

    I always follow the RW programmes, and always have to just modify the speedwork to what I can manage. My theory is that the majority of runners are men, and men have more speed and less natural endurance than woman. These programmes are aimed at men who do perhaps need more base speedwork for a marathon than women to compensate for the lower stamina (ie. they train to be that much faster so that marathon pace is slow enough to maintain). Women need less speed for the same finishing time because they can maintain the pace for longer.

    It's just a theory, but it does make sense of my experiences with the training programmes.

    Val.
  • Interesting theory ratcatcher. I'll go with that one! (can't do those paces either).
    Anyway, with champion chips surely losing time at the start doesn't matter?
  • DustinDustin ✭✭✭
    I agree with achilles that RW overcompensate for the overall time (remember they go for a clock finish time of in your case 4h30) but we know there is championchip timing.
    Having done 3h30 last year I'm following the 3h15 schedule (where a 1h32 halfM is suggested) which is 7min/miling, however the pace chart for a 3h15 marathoner says halfM pace is 6:40, again overcompensating.

    Also the reps for me this week should have been 400m in 80-84 secs , I did them in 88-90 but hey at least I did all 10 at the same pace....

    I gues what I'm saying, and agreeing with evryone else, as long as you are there or there abouts don't worry. After all, they are only guides and we will all miss one or two sessions at some stage.
  • Thanks everyone :) I feel a lot better about it having read all these posts, and will bear your comments in mind. It's good to know I'm not the only one finding the pace tough.

    I did the 4mile marathon pace run from the schedule today and that was fine - not a walk in the park but certainly OK and I enjoyed it......after that I did feel more encouraged about sticking to the 4:30 marathon time, and felt I could achieve it. Reading your replies makes me feel even better!

    I like the sound of the Yasso 8s - will definitely try that. And I think ratcatcher's theory about the difference between men and women is interesting - makes sense. Perhaps RW should publish a men's schedule and a women's one!

    Again, thanks for the advice and positive feedback and support - much appreciated!
  • FANY

    First of all, based on your 10k and half-marathon times (of the two, the 10k is relatively the better) you should certainly be capable of 4:30 (your 10k time equates using the best formula I know of, to about 4:16 for the marathon).

    You should be capable of running a mile in about 7:35 (so, yes, 7:20 is too fast) but, in my experience, it may take a fair bit of speed training before you reach the point when you can actually do that.

    To boost confidence it might be worth trying a bit of sprint training (eg, 100 or 200m reps). Find a track, and do a couple of sessions of that: really focusing on form - vigorous arm action, getting onto your toes and running tall 'looking over the garden wall'.
  • I found this calculator:

    http://www.hillrunner.com/calculators/

    What I'm used to it seems to be a good calculator. While your RW-schedule's speedwork pace seems to be a bit wrong.

    Good luck!
  • hi folks,

    thank goodness i have found this thread. I am trying to follow the 3.45 regime and manage all except the pace set for the speed work sessions. was about to look at the 400 regime. but all your comments have lifted my spirits.
    cheers
  • Is speed work really necessary?! can't I just gradually 'up' my stamina to 26 miles? I can run 8 miles fairly comfortably and did a half marathon in Sep 2001. Not much since as I was injured, so have crazily (?) entered this 15-miler to give myself the confidence to go for my first marathon (London) this year. Have put myself in the 4:30 category. Is this a bit ambitious?!
  • Cathrine D, for you I think it is better to build up miles instead of doing to much speedwork. By doing less speedwork you can do more miles, since you don't have so many in your legs, without getting injured or overtrained. Maybe you could do a couple easy intervals or/and temporuns in your marathonpace the last month before FLM to "get your legs going". Easy intervals could be 8x400m in your 5k pace.

    Try and you'll find out!

    Good luck in FLM.
  • as has been noted, the suggested speed session times are generalisations and for those with superb stamina, may be difficult to reach. We will review the speedwork targets for future schedules.
    As long as you are reaching the targets for the longer runs and carrying out some form of speedwork, then there is nothing to worry about.
    The problem is that there are a wide range of speeds of people tackling each target. ie those following the sub 4 could be made up of runners with half-marathon pbs from 1:30 to 1:55.
    And there is no guarantee the 1:30 half-marathoner will beat the 1:55 half-marathoner over the marathon.
    Ratcatcher is correct in that the average woman has more stamina than the average man but may not be able to run 400m reps as fast.
    The speed sessions are suggestions but I don't see why anybody who can run 10 miles straight off can't run 3 or 4 by a mile. They shouldn't be flat out but controlled and even if they are run in nearer 8 minutes each (even if we suggested nearer 7) they will be improving your speed endurance (better than 400s).

    It is possible to run a marathon without speedwork, but speedwork does increase fitness, strength and speed endurance and makes it just a little easier.
    the key, as with all schedules, is work hard but do what suits you.

  • This was the night I managed to get out and try to do my first ever speedwork. My 3:45 schedule told me to do 1 mile jog to warm up, then 4 x 7 minute miles, then another 1 mile jog.

    I couldn't go that fast for that many miles. I did the first one in 7:06, but I was so exhausted that I became afraid of messing up the others. Then I thought I'd try to do the yasso 800 thingies instead but by then I was demoralised and my watch conspired against me to fail to time my lap and it was all very depressing.

    I'll have to try again next week.

    <piglet wipes away a little tear and curls up in the corner>
  • i cant manage any of your speedwork sessions RW
    Must be crap
    sob
  • <piglet stirs in corner and pokes head out of pile of leaves>

    Hello Benz

    <snuffle, snuffle>
  • Hug, piglet
    They are MEAN at RW arent they
  • Thanks, Benz. They are! <snuffle, snuffle>

    Hug back :-)

    xxxxx WP
  • I know i cant do a sub 4.30 marathon, but ill be lazy if i do get you round
    But i CANNOT do 9 minute miles
  • I've just been looking at this nice, comprehensive race time predictor that Donutto recommended in the Yasso 800 thread. It's quite comforting :) I think we'll just have to try to do what we can. Sigh...
  • it IS nice isnt it
    Ta Donutto
    So i CAN do a half in 2.5
    Need to work on marathon time though
  • It's quite good and encouraging. For instance... if I enter 4:30 on the front page for a marathon (that being the schedule you're following) it then comes up with lots of numbers, but the interesting ones (in the context of this discussion) are the numbers for workout speed. There are lots of numbers, but I don't think it's suggesting 9 minute miles anywhere relevant :) (Nor 7s for me - phew!)
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