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"Advanced Marathoning" - Pfitzinger & Douglas
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Those with a adequate conditioning but poor aerobic conditioning would have a consistent (but large) pace differential.
I think this makes sense for you BR, i remember you mentioning having trouble maintaining your usual form in the latter stages of a marathon.
A 16s per mile differential per doubling of distance is pretty typical of higher level club / county distance runners. Elite are more like 10-12s. Sprinters (have data for only a few brave enough to run further than 400m) with muscles able to take the forces but with low aerobic capacities are more like 40+s.
Have some data on this to write up and get published - but its unrelated to my PhD so is on back-burner at the moment.
Anything that provides a strength stimulus to the muscles in question will contribute.
Think of it like lifting weights:
You can get a strength simulus for lifting lighter weight (exeerting moderate forces) many times - e.g. slower running.
Or
from lifting heavy weights (exerting high forces) fewer times - e.g. fast running, hill sprints, plyos.
The pertinent variables are force, and repetitions, NOT recovery (though that is pertinent to metabolic training effects). In running terms i use pace and total distance for 'force' and 'repetitions.' You just have to get the balance of the two right to get an appropriate stimulus. Too hard and your legs will be dead for days after (e.g. after hard long road races), not enough and you won't get an adaptation stimulus.
With the pre-ocupation with training the aerobic system (to the neglect of other factors) higher intensity training sessions will often end 'prematurely' due to metobilc fatigue, i.e. before enough has been done to get a strength stimulus.
If you are not running your steadies too close to threshold pace, it is probably the 'strength-fatigue' i'm talking about that you feel as it becomes harder to maintain normal pace toward end of your training runs - if so you are already providing a stimulus - just be patient and lets the adaptaions occur.
The only problem with doing steady runs very slowly is that it then takes vast volumes of running to achieve the strength stimulus, and you may fatigue for other reason (carb depletion, dehydration, boredom) before doing enough.
In a sense, faster is better (more potent, less time / volume required) to a point, beyond which metabolic fatigue gets in the way.
Class dismissed.
Sorry, went on a bit there.
By the sounds of it youre all a bit a head of me in the reading and applying stakes....
Definitely short on tempo runs, because I was really focused on sorting aerobic sytem out, but the 175ish marthon HR suggested by Hadd still seems very unlikley to me (though I didn't use HRM in race) - are some of you able to hold that level of HR for marathon distance?
I think that this is a good point. One thing that has always concerned me about the HR zones suggested by Hadd for individuals with a max above 193 is that HR is fixed for a specific session regardless of what your resting or max actually are.
For instance Hadd states "If your HRmax is 193 OR HIGHER, then the following applies:
HRmax: 193+ (even if over 200)
Best possible HRmarathon: 175-177 HRav (HR average)".
So, if we two runners, runner A and runner B with a max of 193 and 205, then the HR described above equate to:
HRmarathon: 91-92% max (A) & 85-86% max (B).
I think that these differences are substantial. Certainly for me, the difference between ~85% max and 90% max is the difference between marathon pace and half marathon (threshold) pace.
So I'm not suprised to hear that you found a 175ish intensity "very unlikley" to be sustainable for the marathon, as it represents 91-92% max, which likely represents your 1/2M race intensity.
I'd suggest that, as you felt, ~165-170bpm is probably the highest HR range you'll be able to sustain in a marathon (85-88% max).
I'd also suggest that, in general, working heart rate (WHR or Heart Rate Reserve HRR) is a much better index to use, as it takes into account your resting and your max (see P&D, Advanced Marathoning pg 25-26), but this is another issue.
so what he does go into detail on is how you can steadily push that HR upwards (towards the best possible) in training so that you can determine with a decent level of confidence what HR you can hold in the marathon. For me this is far more useful than a theoretical max figure that will vary from individual to individual anyway, as it is giving me a way of determining what I am actually capable of running the marathon at.
E.g. my max is also 193, and I've now got my planned marathon HR up to 170 and "looking ok". Given a few more months (which I don't have) I could give a few more BPMs a try..
MM
Have used WHR as training zone calc previously. From "SERIOUS training" book.
Z1 135-150 - easy pace; Z2 150-158 steady aerobic; Z3 159-167 Endurance (not much training in this zone); Z4 168-178 Threshold; 179-Max intervals
Last year I had lactate test early in training, and my lactate started to rise above 1mmol at about 163. I would guess that went to about 167 later in year, and my "anaerobic threshold" goes to about 183 after interval training/circuit training block.
This year, following 2 "crashes" I wanted to make sure I could run sub-3 pace in training at a Zone 2 HR. Lots of steady/easy got me there with some to spare.
Is goal MP at the point when your lactate begins to rise, or should I be able to run with elevated lactate (eg between 1 and 4mmols) for duration? never quite been able to get a clear answer from stuff I've read.
Cheers
I've ordered P&D but not read it yet, but am interested to see what methods they recommend for potential MP estimation..
the Hadd approach, as I understand it, recommends that it is based on whatever HR you can run ~4x5km @ without loss in pace. I've only used this once in a marathon, and apart from the fact that my pace on the day was some ~20s/mile down (long list of reasons) on training track sessions at that HR, it did result in ~even splits, so it must have been close.
As FS said, I use a monitor for all training runs, but don't wear it whilst racing or if I do wear it during a race, I don't pay any attention to the numbers during the race.
FS,
There is a (basically) linear increase in the steady-state blood lactate concentration from rest through to "lactate threshold", typically 1/2M - 10M race pace. Your marathon pace, providing it is a pace that you can sustain for 26.2M, corresponds to a point on the lactate vs exercise intensity curve to the left of the inflection point which demarcates "lactate threshold". The actual lactate concentration at this point, varies between individuals but will be toward the lower end of the range that you mentioned, as Cartman said.
I'm guessing that the thinking behind this book is to allow you to train "smarter" no matter what sort of marathon you are aiming for?
What I'll probably end up doing is tweaking the schedules a little bit so that I can realistically fit the training in.
Ask away!
Minks,
I'm in the same situation as you, as I'm about to take on a job with a 1:15 commute. I have to eat well before going to bed, so not sure how the 14, or 15 mile midweek run for the <70 mile schedule, will go.
I wish it was summer!
Ah well, even less sleep!
BTW...it is a great book and I intend to follow one of the schedules as soon as:
1. I am fit again :-(
2. I have built up my aeribic base sufficently...probably aiming for some time next autumn...will stick to Hadd until then
large parts of the P&D approach is very similar to Hadd anyway, except that they seem to follow the 'pulling LT up' approach as opposed to Hadd who 'pushes it up from below - if you know what I mean.
Most I can really manage is about 12 miles after work as it's 12 miles from here to home, so if I'm super-organised with the kit and clothing balance I can run home if need be. I could get away with leaving work 30 minutes early on those days which would mean I'd get home at a reasonable time.
WSS, I SO wish it was summer, if only for the light evenings. Not too bothered about doing 14 or 15 miles in high heat and humidity though ... Commuting is a real drag, time you wish you could spend doing something worthwhile. What was your commute before?
The thing I like about AM is it does follow the Base Training/hadd principles quite closely. The VO2max sessions are a necessary part of the sharpening process, and no one would ever say that you follow BT to the exclusion of these. My next few months will adhere to the aerobic BT principles, while taking on board the things I've learnt from AM. I'll follow their long run pattern, and might follow their schedule closer when I get within a few months of Boston. This is roughly what I'm planning (I know you've seen this DF as you've commented on it)
Minks,
My previous commute was 9 miles, which I could do in 20-40 mins depending on traffic. In the summer, I'd bus in and run home so that I could start my 15-miler at 5pm and be done by 7:30, and it was a lovely off road coastal run which is a total no-no during the winter in the dark.
Actually, I might get a reprieve for a month. There's some last minute in-fighting which might keep me local for a few more weeks. As I write this, I don't actually know where I'm working on Monday!
Am planning to do Paris having finished Dublin about a month ago and hoped to use the P & D schedules as they match the mileage I'm hoping to do and make a lot of sense (>70 mpw - 18 weeks). I also agree with AF that the (medium) long mid-week run is a great idea. Three questions though.
1) I included hill repeats as part of my training for Dublin (5 x 3 mins, recover jogging back down). I found these to be invaluable but there seems no place for the them in the P & D schedule. Can they be built in?
2) The schedule differentiates between 'general aerobic', 'medium-long', 'long' and 'recovery' runs. P & D allow for heart rate drift between 73 - 83% on a long run, but also suggest an increase in pace over the course of the run. I like that. But does same the apply to the others? I'm assuming not to the recovery runs, but what about general aerobic and medium-long?
3) What are strides? And should they be done at the end of run or interspersed thrroughout a run?
Any clarity on the above would be greatly appreciated. By my reckoning, Monday is 18 weeks to Paris. Gulp.
1) I would imagine you could fit the hill reps into a general aerobic run - or maybe use them in the VO2 max session. I suppose it depends how hard you run the reps!
2) I don't use a HRM, but I run the long runs at MP +10-20%, starting at +20% and working up to +10%. The medium long runs I run at MP+10% all the way, and everyting else I run at constant pace except the LT sessions where P&D specify the distance as part of a longer session, so I split the difference as a warm up/cool down at general aerobic pace
3) I run the strides as an acceleration up to about 3k pace and hold it. The total time is about 30 secs. I intersperse them throughout the run after a warm up - usually doing one every half mile.
I will probably just compromise on 12 miles for the midweek 'medium long' run - it's long enough to get some benefit and just about do-able in the time I have available.
That's brilliant. Thanks very much.
RM
To add to AF's excellent reply, I use the following heart rates:
Recovery: 65%-70%
Long: 70%-75%
Medium long 70%-75% (ie same as long)
General Aerobic: 80%-83% (marathon pace)
All %s are % of maximum, not working heart rate.
Minks,
Roll on summer! I did my bit for urban running tonight: 8 miles in gale force winds and painfully driving rain. Lovely!
I've been taking it pretty easy since the Edinburgh marathon, a combination of laziness, a baby and lots of long hours at work have made it difficult, so I need to put in some decent miles over the next few weeks if I'm going to be ready for week 1.
I think the main problem is going to be trying to fit everything in.
That's very helpful, thank you. The long and medium long are pretty much as I intended, but think I'll have to slow down on the recovery runs (which I hate!). It was the 'general aerobic' runs that had me a bit confused, and running them at marathon pace makes great sense and means that I could replace them with a hill sprints session every now and again.
I have a 5k race tomorrow, and then Week One begins on Monday.
A good weeken's running to all.
RM
For all those considering P&D for their future marathons.