Flirty women are blamed for rape

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Comments

  • oops got it wrong - 5 yrs is starting point fyi
  • I thought rape was a crime of "power", was about the demeaning of the victim and had little to do with sexual satiation, demonstrated well by the fact that rapes of males are primarily committed by males.

    As has been said I think you'd need to look at the questions asked to get the results to best assess the findings.
  • Don't folow your reasoning Dodge - how could a woman rape a man? Unless the man was aroused (and therefore at some level interested) the sex wouldn't really work - unless you're thinking of women groping men's genitals or something (does that count as rape - serious legal question)

    I was shocked by the survery, bu I was particularly staggered when I saw this on the news that some people apparently "held the woman completely responsible" if she was drunk/wearing a low cut top etc. Like the man has nothing at all to do with it!
  • Hmmm - thought about that some more in the bath - I guess it would be poss if a man was sexually aroused by a woman but didn't want to have sex for whatever other reason. But then it's hard to see how thee woman could *force* the man into it - most women wouldn't be able to overpower the man, and producing a knife might well cause a lack of arousal!

  • It is impossible for a woman to rape - defined in law as intentional penetration (including oral or anal) with penis, where other does not consent and the perpetrator does not reasonably believe the other consents. Could be a sexual assault by a woman but not rape.
  • i don't see how a man could be raped by a women in the male/female intercourse way' as xfr says, extreme fear would certainly make the act not possible for the man.

    i think a girl should be able to wear what she likes and 'no' should mean no, having said that, if a pretty girl dresses in a sexy way, it's a fact that most men, by there very nature will be 'turned on', old, young, ugly, or goodlooking. I think the unpleasent truth is, while most men will probably think 'wow, she looks gorgeous' or at worst 'i bet she would be a nice lay' and leave it at that, there are men that will not stop there and assume the prehistoric 'she must be gagging for it' attitude, so ultimately i think it's up to the girl to be aware of that ugly fact and act accordingly by not putting themselves in a dangerous situation, anything else is naive.

    Having said that, obviously no decent man, would like to think that a girl might look at them and think there is even a potential to be a rapist, so the scum bag rapists can make life very unpleasent for everyone.
  • I can't believe anyone thinks women are to blame.

    I wonder what the actual question in the survey was eg

    Do you think women are more likely to be raped if they behave flirtatiously, walk alone in dodgy places etc?

    This is a world away from suggesting the victims are actually to blame.
  • thikn the wording is on the first page of this thread
  • Yes, I see it now.

    I don't know anyone who agrees that women are in any way responsible.
  • Say "rape" to anyone, and they picture an attack of extreme force and violence. But there are degrees of nonconsensual sex. There are degrees of unwillingness and of persuasion and coercion.

    There might be a case for a lesser category of offence to be brought in, like manslaughter alongside murder.
  • Sadly, women do get raped, no matter how they are dressed, how often they say "no", whether act in a flirtatious manner or not, or even when at home. It is actually very much a power issue for the rapists- they feel inadequate, as mentioned quite correctly by Dodge, so they go overpower a woman, and try to validate themselves in that way. The fantasy doesn't live up to the reality, so can they try it again.

    As mentioned here previously, with the modern media- music video, adult channels, mags... there is a real impression that women out having a nice time, expecially in the evening, are a buffet.

    Men can actually be raped with an implement if they can be restrained.
    Sorry if I ruined anyone's breakfast!
  • As the husband of a woman who was subjected to a fairly brutal sexual assault - which thankfully didn't proceed to rape, I found this so upsetting when I first read it that I had to go out for a long run.

    Having done that, and thought it through, I tend to share the view that these "nine out of ten cats" type surveys can be made to say more or less what anyone wants them to say. A bit like those employee surveys that you do where you all say how cr*p your boss is, but it somehow gets turned round so that he/she comes out of it looking good.

    However

    If anyone really does harbour such views, then they should be in no doubt of the darkness into which such an attack plunges, not only the victim, but their family, friends, the investigators, even the relatives of the offender. It is a crime that leaves an indelible stain that colours everything. There can never ever be any mitigation for it, and to suggest that a woman can preciptate such an act by her own behaviour is outrageous.

    From my own perspective it damaged our emotional and physical relationship, and precipitated three suicide attempts - two by Mrs the other by the wife of the perpetrator.

    I'd tend to disagree with you Dodge - I think this guy definitely had a "kink" towards this sort of behaviour. There were a lot of things that came out of the investigation that made me think that. He didn't want to humiliate or demean - He just wanted to get his end away.

    I'd agree with Potting Shed that the victim is often known to the offender. There was some evidence that this man had been "grooming" us for some time. He'd put up a very good "front" and pretended to be a caring sort who understood Mrs.

    I'm afraid I disagree with you too Muttley. It may be slightly emotional of me, but nonconsensual sex is rape. Its a violent and demeaning act. You cannot dress it up as anything else.
  • That's horrible Fell Running - poor all of you.

    I can see what Muttley means though.

    I was sexually assalted by a "mate" 20 years ago (he offered to walk me home to keep me safe!) and one of MANY things that stopped me ever reporting it was that there was no way in my mind that what he did was similar to the ordeal of a woman being raped violently or at knifepoint.

    That said it did change my personality and affect me physically for several years.

    He sent me a 21st birthday card.
  • FR- I'm very sorry about to hear about what happened to your wife, and thank you for discussing it so openly. I don't get upset easily, but this really did.
  • My disagreement with Muttley is with the greatest of respect - I realise that I'm letting my feelings get in the way a bit.

    I was suprised just how upsetting I found it myself - it happened nearly 6 years ago. Brought a lot of things to the surface that I thought I'd left behind.

  • You're a good man, FR.

    I hold to my opinion, and think that the minefield of sexual politics and crime needs legal clarification. But I respect your viewpoint and the way you've set it forth.
  • Women can never be to blame, but they can be naive.

    In an ideal world, going out in a mini-skirt & low-cut top and getting so hammered on alcopops you end up unconscious in the gutter would result in nothing worse than a hangover. But we don't, we live in a cynical world, with predatory sociopaths waiting to take advantage where they can.

    Of course, not all women are naive, and they still get attacked.

    I am not intending to belittle anyone's experience, just putting my view.
  • A woman may not be able to be tried for rape but a penis isn't required to commit sexual assault. So no, legally a woman can not "rape" but if you take "rape" as a nonconsensual sex act then I'd say they can. Split hairs away though.

    FR that may be your perspective but if he "groomed" your wife then that would suggest premeditation, not a spur of the moment "I fancy a sh@g, she'll do.". You describe it as a brutal attack and, as you said, rape is a violent and demeaning act. We probably don't actually disagree.
  • Having worked in ‘knowledge management’ you can make a survey say any damn thing you like, with the ‘right’ questions and the ‘right’ respondents. My initial question when dealing with all surveys, market research or otherwise is to ask ‘who is it for and why do these people want me to believe this?’

    Second point, rapists and sex offenders are not usually monsters in the sense that they are a different species of bloke, they are amongst us people; and they rape/offend for a variety of reasons not always lust, not always power.

    I’ve been in a situation as a student, where I was chatted up by a girl, who was very flirtatious, very pissed and very ‘available’. We went back to my place, she made all of the moves and I sat back and let it happen, it was only at the point of ‘entry’ that he backed off, told me she was a virgin, got upset and asked me if she could phone her mum as she felt sick and was lonely. I was only 21 then but had just enough self control and self awareness to back off (I was also pissed). Those 20 seconds of self control made the difference between being a sex offender and an ordinary bloke. This was in the early 1980’s before ‘date rape’ was the subject of mass debate, but I quite often think back and wonder “what if?” I could have messed up at least two lives if I’d not exercised restraint.


    Surely this is the point, when a woman says no it should be taken as an unequivocal statement that she means it.

    It’s a sad reflection that only a very small proportion of rape allegations result in a conviction, you have to ask yourself is there something amiss with the criminal justice system… or is it our attitude to women and sex in general which needs to change?
  • Corinthian - thats what I said about the results of the survey.

    Amnesty want it to read like this. If the survey came out saying men to blame for rape, then its a non story and wouldn't have got any publicity.
  • I was a student for 4 years at an East Coast American women's college in the late 70's-early 80's. There were about 2000 of us between the ages of about 17-21, in a rural setting. We had campus police protection at all times. However, in social situations, as soon as we left this sheltered environment to go into Boston for parties, some of the women were indeed a bit naive. On the whole, we did know how to look after each other as well as ourselves and use our common sense, but at the same time did definitely not get into the mindset of "all men are potential rapists" in spite of our feminist credentials. Sadly, the "Central Park Jogger" victim of 1989 in NYC was a fellow student.

    As a whole, we looked out for each other, but I wonder now, in hindsight, how many incidents were never reported because the women thought "nobody would believe them" or similar.
    Alcohol still has a lot to do with these incidents, of course. In 1984, the first states in the US raised the legal drinking age from 18 to 21 (mainly to lower the amount of road accidents and fatalities). However, to now, this does not seem to have made a major difference in drinking or social habits in that age group.



  • I'm glad there's plenty of acknowledgement that you can't just believe the headline on this one without understanding the facts. But I'd just like to dig up one point because I'm an irritable old fart:

    Wolfy said:
    "However it is men who are to blame for rape."

    I said:
    "... it is not men who are to blame for rape. It is rapists. Yes, I am offended."

    Wolfy said:
    "Yep I agree that some women are rapists too!
    However I think it a bit silly for a man to be offended by this if he isn't a rapist."

    Take a couple of moments to think it over again, please, Wolfy. I am a man, and thus I am to blame for rape? And I'm silly to be offended by that assertion? I understand that you didn't actually believe that men are rapists, but your wording was poor and I thought it needed to be challenged. And no, I wasn't making a trivial nit-picking point about the existence or otherwise of female rapists - that much should be obvious.

    No offence meant, honestly, but I don't think anyone should be made to feel inferior on account of their gender, so I think the point is worth pursuing. It's a serious issue, and knee-jerk reaction isn't the way to deal with it.

    Rant ranted. Nurse, the sedatives, please. :-)
  • I was assaulted (not raped) twice in my early 20s. On one occasion 2 men were involved - another friend stopped them. All 3 of the men who assaulted me were people I considered to be my friends at the time. I was drunk both times and didn't report what happened. I just got on with life and haven't spoken about it to anyone since.
    The reason I mention it now is that I expect such instances are fairly commonp[lace. I don't believe all men are potential rapists but its certailny a lot more than just the rare sociopaths mentioned earlier by someone.
    I just hope my daughters are not as silly as I was in drinking myself unconscious.

    I'll have to stop now as I'm getting upset. Sorry.
  • (((lady lucan)))

    yep

    I think it's common - see my earlier post
  • Swerve no offence taken at all. I said it in the same context as the way the women was blamed for rape in the title of this thread and in the survey.

    It is totally unfair to say that a particular gender is responsible for a rape I think that we all know that.

    There was no knee-jerk reaction so you can leave the sedatives alone for now!


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