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Shades Marathon Training
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Mowzer - Hope your foot is healing. You need to find out what the problem is mind you with all the racing you do.
Emmy - My mojo was on holiday so I recommend you taking a holiday and trying new running routes too!
Big G - I'd definitely go for the marathon at Munich. As you said, to go all that way and not do the marathon would be a shame. If anything, treat it as an easy long sightseeing run
Shades - Well done on your IOM race. It sounds like you had a good weekend too.. and a prize to boot. Excellant. What's the matter with your knee?
I'm guessing a "purple patch" is a good running patch but why is it called that?
Tried one of my normal routes the other way round this morning to try and liven things up a bit. Quite interesting seeing things that I don't normally see from the other way round but I think I'll stick to my normal direction next time. The hunting season has opened today.. loads of orange clad red faced men hanging around leaning on things. Will be taking my life in my own hands on any forest run from now on, must be careful to avoid running around aperitif time
Shades, were there many downhill sections in your race? That would explain the sore quads and knee pain. If that's the case, you should be OK for the weekend if you avoid downhills between now and then. You could also try taping the knee for a few days.
Took a rest day yesterday like you, Shades. I tried doing a Monday recovery last week and it did the opposite, meaning I had to take a full rest day on Tuesday. I didn't want that to happen again so I didn't run, although I did go up to the common to pick blackberries and then I went to Vinyasa (which felt quite tough).
The rest day seems to have worked (or perhaps it was the pizza, ice cream mochi and family sized bag of crisps...), as I managed a decent run today. I did 7 miles overall, with the middle 3 as a HM-pace tempo.
Not quite sure what my HM pace should be, actually. Sub-2 is 9:09 and PB pace is 8:54 so I try to aim somewhere within that range. First of the tempo miles was 9:02, which is acceptible. Second was 9:11 which is just outside but that is an uphill mile. Final fast mile was 8:49 which is more like it, although that mile has more downhill. I did two miles to cool down but these were considerably faster than the warm-up miles (10:35/10:17 vs 11:18/10:45). I guess that's to be expected.
Did a little stroll and stretch by the pond to get my breath back before heading to the playground for a few exercises, though I didn't stay long as I was quite thirsty.
I may have to can the bench step-ups as I've had a bit of a mystery stabby pain in my leg foot (very intermittent - has occurred a couple of times following a run as I've walked down the road afterwards, though never during the run) and I felt it today when I was landing after stepping backwards off the bench. So seems to be related to the step-ups and not the run. I'm getting a massage tomorrow so I'll have my guy look at it. Could be peroneous brevis, maybe. Eh...as if I didn't have enough going on with my hamstring and knee!
Hamstring was pretty good on the run - barely felt it. A bit grumpy afterwards though. I'm doing glute bridges daily so that may be helping.
On the subject of race time predictors, going by my recent 10K, I'm not on for a sub-2 at Maidenhead. It gives me a time of 2:03. Maidenhead is really a warm-up race so I'm not too concerned but I am still puzzling over my lack of recent form. I looked at my data for my runs this time last year and noticed that the slowdown is across the board. I am taking longer to warm up now. 11+ miles were rare (usually only if I was very tired or if I was running big hills like those on Streatham Common). A lot of my "easy" runs were in the 10:20-10:30 range and my slow recovery runs were at the pace I now term easy. Hmm.
http://my2.raceresult.com/63290/results?lang=en#1_F127EC
Big G - that's really funny re the man carrying his fridge.
New machine bought, just updated model of what I already have and a pound cheaper than when I bought it 7 years ago, nice to know that not everything has gone up. Delivery tomorrow morning
I'm sure I spend more time sorting the logistics of a race than I actually do running it.
all that way to "only" do the Half Spoken like a true marathon runner
I love Windows 10 and wouldn't change it, I had a couple of problems with the first installation which was free and all the other updates have been trouble free. The problem with this one turns out to be one that often occurs between Rapport and various browsers so it seems to be a Rapport problem as Rapport offer to solve any issues.
Re the LDWA - many of the runners can't be bothered to read any of the instructions and just want to follow others, that's why they get lost, that's what Chair has done. I've found the instructions to be usually good and rarely got lost.
Ian - 68.6% that's a good WAVA result, showing a slower 5k or 10k signifies that you are better suited to longer endurance events, that's good.
What are they hunting? Boar, deer? Please don't get shot by a drunken Frenchman, or anyone
Cal - no, not a lot of downhill in the race, my knee was sore for a couple of days before the race, I'm not taping it as I think it might be a bit of loose cartilage, there is no tender part. I think my quads are sore because last week we did 2 sessions that really killed my quads in Pilates and the marathon was the final straw, plus I didn't do a recovery run yesterday which normally stops any DOMS post race.
Good to hear your hamstring seems to be recovering.
Maybe you're just going through a slower patch of your running, they do happen, we can't all be firing on all cylinders all the time and you were running at top form last year.
Yeah, I think the problem for me is, when I started doing regular races in 2015, my progress was linear, give or take a couple of blips. I got faster with each race, until I hit October, misjudged my pace in one half and missed a PB by 4 seconds. I was really annoyed about that - it was the first race where I'd failed to get a PB (and it was entirely my own fault). Then I did a race in mud and pouring rain and was much slower, but given the conditions, that was understandable.
2016 was quite linear too. First half was my comeback after the groin strain so I wasn't expecting a PB for that but still bettered my predicted time by 5 minutes. Then I did Manchester, started parkrun, hit a 10K PB in May, achieved my target time at Harry Hawkes 10 (mile) in June, then had a run of sub-2 halves in the Autumn along with parkrun, 10K and 10 mile PBs. This carried on until this year when I broke my half PB twice in February, then my marathon PB in April.
Since then it's all gone to doo-dah. Yeah I've had the injury. Yeah it's been hot and muggy and whatnot. But I'm back to full training now, hamstring is manageable and the weather is cooler than it was. I can't blame it on weight as I'm half a stone lighter than when I set my HM PB in February (I'm always heavier in the winter). I guess, after seeing myself progress at a steady rate, I'm used to seeing myself improve and this setback is disheartening.
Ah well, hopefully the training I am doing now will pay off later in September and October. I hope so, anyway.
Big G (and others) - Ldwa instructions are usually very good - as Shades said lots of runners (especially the faster ones) don't bother to read them. Many events now also have GPS. There are also quite a few events put on by charities etc which follow the same format. Salisbury 54321 is run by the Firefighters Charity and being multi-terrain means there is a fair bit of road too. A few years ago they had instructions and a map but now there not needed as the signage is excellent. There were a couple of Trotters there on Sunday.
Shades-Glad they're delivering so quickly for you.
Cal-Hopefully next year will bring another good run,maybe have a look at altering your training,if you haven't already,and see if that changes anything.
Mowzer-Great news your foot is starting to feel better already.
Planned a 5 mile easy run today,but after a bit the hamstring felt a bit tight,tried to run but could feel it pulling occasionally so called it off,did 4 and no point pushing through for the sake of a mile.
I was thinking about my 10 miler and it makes sense that that is the best I've raced,as looking at my training it has been perfect for that distance,stops me getting carried away about my marathon time anyway.
Big G: You're addicted
Mamafox - would it be advisable to run with hi-viz?
Cal - I think you're right!
I ran today and it was absolutely fine and great. Really strange!
I did 7-miles easy this morning, and then did a hill repeat session on my own this evening. The figures won't really mean much as I just went from the bottom of a hill to the top (I don't know the distance) but the reps were 62secs, 60, 60, 58, 61, 62. I just walked back down slowly between each, and then went again and the rests were about 3-mins. A really tough session, but something to work on and hopefully if I can do a few more it'll help with my 5K pace. I'll be going up the same hill at Torbay 10K on Sunday, so good practice! With warmup and cool down it was 5-miles, so 12-miles for the day today.
Shades - Hope your new washing machine arrives on time. A number of years ago my eldest daughter and I bought a new fridge-freezer and got the store to load it into her van. Problem was at the other end when we couldn't lift it out and into the house! Thankfully a kind and very burly, strong neighbour came to our rescue
"If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got.". Henry Ford (1863-1947)
If we're still wanting to improve and get PB's then that is the time that we start to search out what can make us faster and fitter, different training plans, more mileage etc. But you're still early in your marathon career and I think you'll easily PB for a while without changing/increasing your training.
Ian - watch out for that hamstring, that might be a warning sign. Our Pilates instructor always tell us if we do no exercise in a day make sure we stretch our hamstrings as they are so important.
Emmy - well your mojo returned quickly, phew
Big G - I expect mowzer knows which of the LDWA events are easy to navigate and as she said many have quite a bit of way marking too. Choose one that accepts runners, a few are not keen as it means they have to open the checkpoints earlier and it's the runners that get lost as they don't follow instructions. Do you know Robert Tinnyunt? Trotter who no longer runs since his last heart attack. He was banned by Dorset LDWA as at an event they were holding he got lost several times and had to be rescued by the sweepers, they were so cross with him. On the 3rd time they found him they said to him, at the end of this path turn left, he ran on and then watched him as he turned right.
I was doing the event too, the Hardy Annual, he started before me, he was a faster runner than me, I finished had a full meal, tea and chat at the finish and when I left he still hadn't showed up at the finish. The Dorset LDWA are a really nice group, I did a few of their events and not too far to drive and easy instructions.
mowzer - hope that sudden pain in the foot was just a one off and it won't happen again.
I always buy my white goods from the same local shop, they deliver FOC when I want, fit and take away the old appliance too. When I was working I bought a new fridge/freezer and they delivered it in my lunch hour, I drove home from work and they were waiting for me in our car park at 5 minutes past one, as arranged.
I'm taking a rest day today, just to give my niggly knee a rest and see if that helps it clear up.
Shades, I have heard that name, but don't know him at all. I can imagine that being very annoying for the event organisers!!
Just 3-miles easy this morning, to loosen the legs a bit after last night. Then I'm taking out the 5-mile group tonight at the club.
All that makes me wonder whether my body actually does better off less training when it comes to the shorter events (though the two February halves would seem to suggest otherwise).
Anyway, I did 8 miles easy today. Usual very slow first mile. It actually felt faster today, but it wasn't. Seemed to perk up around mile 5. That seems to be the case most runs now. I'm wondering if it is taking me longer to get going because my sleep is poorer quality. I remember trying to fit in some 4am runs before school when I was teaching and they were always slower than they felt, because I was tired.
Foot has been niggly. What is it with us and feet lately? Getting a massage today so I'll see if he can figure it out. Pretty sure it's not a stress fracture because I can't find any tender spots.
I have to admit that stretching is 100% my weakest point,I really need to do it more but never seem to bother.
I've heard the Dorset Doddle is hard, very hilly but a popular event, but if you're thinking of DD next year the hill training would be ideal. I've heard Chagford is good but I would imagine quite hilly too.
Robert Tinnyunt was the first Trotter to reach 100 marathons, I expect he's still a Trotter but he had a heart attack out training with the Trotters one night and suffered memory loss after that and hasn't been able to run. I still see his wife occasionally and she says he's fine, I guess he's well in his 70's now.
Cal - I think a prolonged period of poor sleep will definitely have an effect on your race times, maybe even more so for the shorter distances as that tiredness makes everything much more of an effort and you need to feel fresh to be able to put that extra speed in. Maybe in future you need to target your PB events in cooler weather and during marathon training?
Ian - a 2 minute stretching routine after each run is enough to help, I do mine outside before I go back into my flat, just normal routine now and I like to know how my muscles are feeling post run. I do the same pre run and pre race, but general consensus varies about any advantage pre run is varied, however I've always done it and feels good for me.
I'm still hovering over the Munich upgrade button. Part of the issue is that I have Barnstaple, Plym Trail and Munich so even if I don't do the double at Plym Trail, Munich would mean three marathons in three weekends, which I haven't done before. I am recovering relatively quickly though, so maybe I just give it a go. 50/50 at the moment!
SVP 100k was my big race for the year distance wise! Having done Round The Rock (Jersey) last year (45 miles) I wanted to try something a bit further and this event got the nod!
By this
point Andrew and Baz were feeling rough and we left Andrew with his family as
he told us to go on, shortly afterwards Baz was struggling so I went on with
Michael to the next checkpoint, while Baz slowed down. It was sad to leave them
both behind but I had my own race to run.
Got to the sports ground and knew we might be
close to a top 10 finish so knocked out a sprint finish to get a few seconds
ahead of Michael!! Crossed the line in 12 hours 22 minutes for 11th place out
of 67 finishers (25 DNF).
As a point to point race, logistics are difficult, luckily my GF drove me to the start, so didn't need to worry about train times etc for getting back to my car, she would then see me at the 6 checkpoints along the route, which worked well as it meant I didn't need to carry everything that I might need, only the items I'd need until the next checkpoint. I was down as a faster starter, so start was at 8:30 (7:00 for early starters) and there is a 14 hour cut off (15.5 for early start). Got to registration early to pick up race number and for the briefing.
It's only a small event and out of 114 sign ups, 22 were DNS and then only about 25 of the rest were in the faster start. We set off at 8:30 and I was on my way! I didn't really have a time in mind, but I did have a couple of aims. Firstly to finish before the cut off (14 hours) and as an "A" goal a sub 12 hour time. I'd set my Garmin to navigate, and was only looking at the map rather than keeping track of splits.
I got to the first checkpoint at 12 miles in after 1 hour 51 mins, and was feeling good, that was after I had found the checkpoint as the point in the GPX file was out and I thought I had passed it to start with!! I'd taken on food at miles 5 and 10, so only had a bit of food here and topped up my water bottle ready to move on! Checkpoint 2 arrived after 23 miles and 3 hours 49 mins, again feeling good. By this point I had been running with 3 other guys (Baz, Andrew and Michael) for about 20 miles and we were all ticking along at roughly the same pace, so was good to have some company.
Around mile 28 things started to feel tough, I text my GF to ask for a Lucozade at the next checkpoint that was still 5 miles away, but I continuted on with the other 3 guys. However I was wondering at this point if I would have to drop out at just over half way. By the time I'd got into checkpoint 3 however, I was feeling better and had covered 33 miles in 5 hours 49 minutes, so was on track for a sub 12 hour finish at this point.
Leaving checkpoint 3 and onto checkpoint 4 with the 4 of us keeping each other company and making a pact that we would get each other to the finish line. We reached checkpoint 4 at 44 miles after 8 hours 5 minutes. However by this point I was finding it difficult to eat, and would only eat a few snacks at the checkpoints, couple of jaffa cakes and a few pieces of fruit to keep me going.
We left checkpoint 4 and continued on, I passed my longest ever run after 45 miles but then started to struggle again around 48 miles, however passed 50 miles and got into checkpoint 5 after 9 hours 39 minutes and it was feeling a bit better. I told my GF I only had a half marathon to go
Got to the final checkpoint at 58 miles after 11 hours 24 minutes with Michael with things feeling tough, but we knew we would finish. We had picked off some of the earlier starters so leaving the last checkpoint we were running with other people. Shout out to Mark who was running strong at this point. It was starting to get dark on the trail with a couple of miles to go, but feeling tired and not bothering to put my head torch on I used my phone instead to guide us the final distance off the trail and onto the road.
Having visited the checkpoints in the car a couple of weeks prior, I knew there wasn't far to go now, so I carried on with Mark once on the road and picked up the pace, well it felt like it
Was overwhelmed to have finished and even forgot to stop my Garmin for a good 10 minutes!! Collected my medal and t-shirt, had a few photos, then sat on the grass until I got cramp! At this point I was feeling quite emotional and may have shed a tear, but I won’t admit that here
Round The Rock - 45.8 miles - 12:18 ave pace - 4,383 ft
SVP 100 - 63.8 miles - 11:41 ave pace - 3,009 ft
Anyway I'm happy with that, but despite thinking about it previously, not sure I can (or want to) go any further!!
Re the eating, so common to have difficulty in eating in the latter stages and it just becomes a matter of taking on whatever you can tolerate.
11th place is an outstanding result, how are the legs now?
You are a lost cause now...sniggers
I don't think 3 in 3 weeks would be a problem for you. But I do think Plym Trail is quite a tough double especially as the course is out and back x2 for each marathon distance, mentally that will make Day 2 a tough run.
Ian, just reading back a bit. Yeah, don't do the 5K if you feel a niggle. As you say, not worth it at this stage and as you know a bit of speed could make the issue worse. There will be other 5Ks, even if you have to wait until next Summer for the 5K series to start again.
Shades, yes I think if I clicked the button on Munich I wouldn't do the double at Plym Trail (I've only entered the Saturday event currently). There is a 7-in-7 event in Nov, which I have two in mind for. I have booked two nights in a refundable B&B anyway, but haven't booked the races yet, so I'll just see how I am. Also, I have booked up for a back-to-back event[*] in January - one of the Enigma ones so not ideal, but it's nice to have something to work towards that is in the diary, to help keep motivated in December/Xmas! I'll need to do a few back-to-back longish runs I think. The day after Gloucester I did 6 and felt fine on that run, but was pretty tired on the Tuesday, and in fact didn't run again until the Thursday....no injuries or niggles really, just tiredness and heavy legs. Depending on how City to Sea goes, I may try and do 8ish the day after, but I'll just see how I feel. However, when I say I'm recovering fairly well, I feel totally fine this week - come this evening I'll have done about 25-miles this week, and it's still only Wednesday, so will probably get to over 40 this week fairly comfortably. That will include a 10K race that I am intending to have a good crack at on Sunday evening, wearing the Reebok Racers
The other slight concern about Munich is that I'm sharing a room with a chap who is notorious for not being able to handle his booze!!! If I get an early night and he comes stumbling back in the early hours of race day it could be a bit, errm, stressful - maybe I'll just lock the door and put my headphones on so I can't hear him knocking
[*] Is it "a double" or "back-to-back"? I suppose "a double" is two marathons in one day, isn't it? When I write the press reports I sometimes use the terms interchangeably (as I did above, also), so probably I should get it right!
Big G - Salisbury would definitely be a good one for next year. I entered Cerne Giant but because of my foot I never got to do it. I did Dorset Doddle a couple of years ago - I hated it. My daughter said 'Well what did you expect -you don't like hills and are terrified of cliffs.' Far, far too close to the cliff edge for me and some of the hills were so steep I thought I would topple over. One downhill had over 100 steps so deep that (with my short legs) I had to jump down each step individually
Re your first marathon double, no need to do back to back long runs as part of the training, I don't know anyone else that has! I think you're at a stage now that you'll cope fairly well on Day 2, everyone starts with tired legs, hydration and fuelling are the key to a successful Day 2.
A double is 2 in 2 days, triple, 3 in 3 days etc. I think back to back is one after the other, but some folk refer to that when they are a week apart.. confusing.
Can you not book another room for Munich, I don't share when travelling to a race as don't want my race spoiled. Heavy on the booze, could any of quite a few Trotters
My washing machine is late, I just phoned and they are running late as previous delivery took longer than expected as the householder had glued his old washing machine to the floor so it took a long time to remove it!
Had my massage. Again, he couldn't find anything specifically wrong with the knee and said the foot was just a bit jammed up. I was correct that peroneus brevis was a bit grouchy, though. He gave it a good yank around which will hopefully help. One of the advantages of having a masseur who is also an osteopath.
Cal - I have learned a fair bit through your posts, I just had to Google peroneus brevis. How do you know so many technical terms? In terms of running I think gradually increasing your mileage might make a difference - obviously at a slow pace. Have you considered using a HRM and getting a chunk of steady base miles under your belt? getting a good base running by HR definitely made a difference for me.
Big G/ Shades/Mowzer - I am convinced you are making up all these West country race names!
Mowzer - Glad to hear foot seems to be better.
Emmy - Glad to hear mojo has reappeared. I've given up trying to understand my body and good runs v bad runs. Don't think High viz would make a difference at aperitif time to be honest.. in fact might be more dangerous
Shades - Glad to hear your new washing machine is en route .. and lol for the glued down one! I remember a couple of years ago our machine broke down in the midst of a family gastroenteritis bug *shudders at memory*
Officially the hunters are after Wild boar and deer.. I would however add "Anything that moves" to that category. However, my plan is starting in a couple of weeks and if I am running to pace then I will just be road running so should be safe enough (unless I am particularly unlucky).
Tried a new route this morning.. well a mix of two other ones. Was actually only 2km longer than my normal 14k route but it felt a lot longer. Went well and felt I could have kept on going for longer (obviously I didn't) which was quite an agreeable surprise as that never happens. Normally I am counting down the last couple of km then staggering to my gate, leaning on it whilst poring over my Garmin.
Shades - Legs are surprisingly OK, I took my recovery run really slowly and ran with the GF and they felt stiff to start with but then loosened up. I have a massage tonight and I'll do another 2 mile recovery run tomorrow with another 3 miles on Saturday. I noticed my HR was elevated during my run for the pace I was running so I'll monitor that to gauge my recovery. I need to see how I recover before I decide what I'm doing about Birmingham marathon!
Cal / MF - I never thought I could run that distance either a few years ago! I guess you just have to keep pushing to see what you can acheive, but honestly if I can complete an ultra you both can too.
Mowzer - Yes, I think the cut-offs are quite tight too, which I guess is why the DNF rate is so high (27%). I think next year they are doing (or considering) a 50k alongside the 100k.