Shades Marathon Training

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  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Keith - but for a winter race I would guess Plym Trail course is fairly sheltered from the elements, nothing can be done about the drag up to the finish line.

    SK - I have Maffetone's book, there's a lot of good sense in it along with some slightly weird stuff.   We've had folk on this thread that have followed Maffetone's heart rate training and done very well with it.

    Big G - have a lovely time in Munich :)  

  • Shades - I keep wanting to try it, but have got into a routine with my fitness class, track session, club run and parkrun so I'm not sure how all these would fit in if you can't go above a set HR! I think you'd have to be v disciplined. How's the foot?

    Had to miss track last night as had school open evening, but I did a good trade with my OH - he had a night out last night, while I covered football training and open evening. But then I get to do parkrun on Saturday while he takes son 3 to football match plus I get to do track next week while he goes to 6th form open evening with son 2!  :)
  • Shades - How bad is the hill? Can i cruise down it at a nice speed letting the slope keep me going then battle my way back ? Yes this would be the dubious go to fast downhill approach knowing its gonna be harder on the return. I assume its old railway grade slopes? Which if so is basically what i have here anyway as most of the cycletrack network is old railway
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    SK - Maffetone's method is much easier to stick to than Hadd's which I use.   Even if you just did as much of your running as you could at Maffetone's prescribed heartrate that would give you a much stronger base.

    Seems you negotiated a good deal there, you seem to be really enjoying your training, maybe because you haven't got a marathon looming on the horizon.

    Heel is getting better, it should be OK for my next marathon on the 15th. :)

  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Keith - there's a short steep uphill at the very beginning of the race, up through Clearbrook and back down via a tarmac path (only do this bit once) then back onto the road and then onto the trail.   Then it's a very gentle downhill, just enough to make you feel that you're running really well but not conscious that it's downhill, then at the turnaround you realise why the run down to the turnaround felt so good.  Back to the start and repeat, so the last 10km does feel quite a drag to the finish. 
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    SK-That sounds like a good deal to me.
    Steven-When I did Lancaster I spoke to a guy from the North East marathon club and they said they organise a few marathons if that's not too far for you  http://www.northeastmarathonclub.co.uk/
    Shades-I didn't realise it was a Friday,might make it a bit tougher with work but could always book it off closer to the time.Glad your heel is getting better,we seem to have a few going down with injury at the minute.
    Big G-Enjoy Munich and have a great race.

    Easy 3 miles this morning for me,last run before Chester,I seem to have out on a few lbs while being away but not to worry,should drop off quickly again.

    After next week I will have about 10-14 days recovery,judging from Lancaster,then I have a half 3 weeks after that,then I will have about 6 weeks with nothing planned.I am hoping to keep to about 40 miles p/w then,how is best to structure that? 1 long run and the rest easy to avoid injury and burnout? or keep some intensity in there?
  • Big G - Congrats, have a good race in Munich.
    SK - Will take a listen to that one. MAF seems easier to follow that Hadd that's for certain.

    Rest day today, 13 miles tomorrow then 9 on Sunday.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Ian - was that Jim from the NE marathon club?   Really nice guy and I believe their events are good, not been as a very long drive from here.

    Re your training after your half, that's when you start the new job isn't it? 

    I would suggest you drop the long runs, don't run any further than 10 miles, all pace at easy to long run pace, maybe run new routes as you won't be on a schedule so can just run as and where you please.   No need to avoid the hills though ;)   By dropping any tempo and long runs you are removing any work sessions and a good chance for the body to recover from a busy and successful year.

  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Steve - you like your back to back runs :)

    Ian - I've just popped onto the Chester website and found your race number and pinned the page so I can stalk follow you on Sunday morning, if it works.   Can't do the same for Lily as it's only an app for smart phones and my phone is crap.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades-I didn't catch the guys name but he was a nice fella,late 50's I'd say.Didnt realise they had live tracking so will set that up.
    I start my new job on Monday but took that as my day off and got a course Tuesday so start there Wednesday.
    Thanks for the advice,it will seem weird having 10 as my longest but my body will probably be grateful after the last few months.Also be good as I have set up a short HM plan for 4 villages at the end of Jan,which leads nicely onto Manchester training.
  • JellyJelly ✭✭✭
    Good luck to everyone who's running this weekend. I'm working both days. :( 
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Can't find Big G on the start list at Munich :/  might just be blip as I know he swapped distance, I can only find 4 Trotters running the marathon which seems not many?

    Looks like Munich use the same system as VLM so when Big G appears on the list I can check his result too. :)

  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Jelly - never mind, your time will be the following weekend :)

    Ian - it says live results at Chester so I'm hoping it works as I'll be thinking about you, but not stalking I promise ;)

    Fancy taking a day off the first day of your new job ;)

    I take it you've entered 4 Villages as that race fills quickly.

  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades-No problem,I've always wanted a stalker but never managed to get one  :D
    Not entered 4 villages yet but will do soon. I've always thought it was a tough course for pb but looking at some results a lot get similar to Chester so I may be able to aim for a decent time.
  • mowzermowzer ✭✭✭
    Shades - my foot is now so much better thanks. Sometimes I do start to get an ache during long walks, so I take a couple of paracetamol so that I don't start over-compensating with other muscles. Other times it's fine. I have to keep any laces on that foot really loose though - even when driving I've sometimes used the break at the traffic lights to loosen my laces! I'm just entering events where I can walk at the moment. I need to build up my fitness - which is practically non-existent at present - before entering any road runs or events with (runners') cut-offs.

    slowkoala - I've been doing all my training according to MAF for the last 6 years or so. (But not the diet bit, I like my cake too much :*) You would need to cut out any fast stuff, high intensity etc for at least 3 months to build up a good aerobic base, then you could use parkruns, short races as sprint work if you felt you needed it. A few years ago our club coach said to me: 'If you only do long slow runs, you'll just do a long, slow marathon.' That was the year that I then broke all my pbs from 5k to marathon  ;) Running by MAF means you cut out all the stress and injuries too (although not the ones caused by falling over  :()

    Good luck to all those racing this weekend. Enjoy  :)
  • Shades - Yeah whilst entering the Sat Jan 20th one (this means by time i drag arse over line and get back home shower etc it time for dinner in the pub ;)) i noticed its on cycle route 27 so wont be overly steep
  • Good luck Big G!

    Mowzer - that's really interesting to hear how the MAF training worked for you. I must admit when he quoted some study where 78% of runners got 5k PBs after following it for 6 months,  I was a bit dubious. As probably if you got a lot of runners to just train consistently for 6 months, they'd PB at the end. Did you reintroduce speed stuff after following it before you went for the PBs? I guess for me right now, I'm really enjoying mixing up my running with track and the fitness class and I don't think running on my own really slowly would be so fun! But I can see myself starting it when I next get injured!

    Shades - is there a big difference between HADD and MAF?
  • Evening folks. 
    SK - I'll give that podcast a listen as it sounds like something I could make use of.  I already have a strong Base so would be interesting to see how my training woukd change and as far as diet goes,  I'm already low carb so that part is done.

    I went out for a steady 7.5 miles and just ran and enjoyed it,  there was times I was able to get some pace into my run.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Ian - re 4 Villages, a course doesn't need to be flat to be a PB course, even a quite severe undulating course can be fast it the hills are gentle enough to be able to still run up at a decent speed and the downhills not too steep.  I think KK used to do that race, but he's not been on the thread for a long time.

    mowzer - that's good that the foot is much better, but you obviously did it some damage and feet are slow to rehabilitate fully.   Sometimes in Pilates our instructor gets us to do stuff to strengthen our feet, says we all neglect them.   My foot is manageable now although I've lost flexibility in the forefoot I do some of the exercises and I only get a twinge now and then when I run and usually only in the first couple of minutes.

    You can use the winter to build up your fitness slowly and get back to running the marathons again.

    Keith - it's not steep at all.

    SK - I would think you already have a fairly good base so might find that running at Maffetone's prescribed HR wouldn't be too hard for you (as in slow).   Might be worth you doing the calculations and having a trial run.   Hadd is much stricter and you'd be looking to do all your base training initially at 70% MHR until you can run 10 miles at that HR without any cardiac drift.   Maffetone's HR is usually a bit higher and therefore easier to run to.  mamafox has used Maffetone's calculations for her HR base training.

    I had a similar experience to mowzer when I had my purple patch, had a great spell of Hadd training except unlike mowzer I only did one long run, I was doing high mileage though.  I did the one long run of 20 miles a week before a marathon as I knew my training was going well but needed to see if that was reflected in my long runs, it was, I wrote in my training diary 'best 20 mile run I've ever done'.   The following weekend I knocked 7 minutes off my marathon PB and the following weekend another 4 minutes off that time.   No speedwork and I set PB's from 10km to 50 miles that year. 

    Most runners don't set down a strong base and that will limit what they can achieve, but that's their choice.

    Iain - the amount of walking you do in your job is a strong contributing factor in your base training, although I suppose sometimes it doesn't feel like it in awful weather.


    Waiting for the Pilates booking frenzy at 7 a.m. and then I can get out for my run :)

  • JellyJelly ✭✭✭
    When you talk about base training, can explain more, is it your level of fitness before training plan or is it a type of training in the training plan. Sorry still newbie.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Jelly - base training is a period of easy running, ideally no races and no faster stuff, which builds a foundation of a strong aerobic system and endurance.   Ideally a runner would do a period of base training to bring them up to the start of a specific training plan with speedwork etc.   Where mowzer and I have mentioned above, we did the base training and ran PB's off that without doing speedwork sessions

    helpful advice here  http://howtorunamarathon.net/Base_Training.html

  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades-When I did it I was still in my hate hills stage so hopefully 4 villages won't seem as bad this time,looking at the profile again it shouldn't be too bad.Nice easy 2 miles this morning to stretch my legs a little,very slow,I just like doing it the day before a race,last time I had a 10 hr shift the day before so this is much easier.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Ian - a 10 hour shift the day before is not ideal, so make the most of today, put your feet up this afternoon while you're nibbling your carbs.

    Let's hope you don't revert to that hate hills stage ;)

    Is the forecast good for Chester tomorrow?


    I met Jelly this morning :)  She was cycling to work and I was running the other way, we stopped and had a quick chat. :)


  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades-Temp and wind looks fine,light rain which often helps,the only bad part at the minute is bbc is showing over 90% humidity but not sure how accurate that is.
    I think I'm over my phobia of hills now,the loop I did for my ultra/marathon training seems to have cured me  :)
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Ian - it's mild with high humidity here too.   Just looked at Met office and that has high humidity too for Chester tomorrow

      https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/weather/forecast/gcmyw1cnz#?date=2017-10-08 

    bit of a nuisance but nothing you can do about that except don't overdress.

    That's such good news about the hills :)

  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Munich marathon  have sorted out their website and I've now found Big G on the start list, and a lot more Trotters that weren't showing yesterday.
  • Shades - that's impressive re your purple patch following the HADD training. How far into you starting running was it? I'd quite like to work out the HR %s as am interested to see how far away from the target zones I'm running now. The max HR is the one I'm not sure about though as I've hit 209 according to my Garmin but most parkruns my max is in thr 170s.

    I did a local parkrun today that I usually avoid as don't enjoy the course and have never got sub-20 there. I managed to run 19:34 which is a course PB by 34 secs. My tactic of going fast for the 1st mile and then slowing down for the next 2, but trying to hold on seemed to work!
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2017
    SK - oh a long way into my running, the first of the marathon PB's that year was my 234th marathon/ultra, which shows it's never to late to tweak that training ;) 
     
    Maffetone's formula doesn't need your MHR but for accurate Hadd you do need an accurate MHR.   Not very pleasant doing a test but the most reliable way to find out.   As you have a wrist HRM make sure it's on tight to the skin and keep looking at the HR even after you stop, the wrist HRM is slower to react to change of pace/rate and the highest will come up after you've stopped.

    Your parkrun HR's of 170's, say 175 would only equate to 83% MHR if your maximum was 209, so I think there's flawed data there as I'm sure you'd run harder than 83% at a 5km.  

    When you did that heart data research project did they advise your MHR, or was that when you stopped too early in the test?

    I spent a long time at the Garmin stand at Loch Ness expo, I was checking out all the models so when I have to replace mine I know what the others look like and ease of reading the screens etc.   The guy was there was really helpful and said for serious HRM training use a chest HRM (admitted the wrist is not accurate enough by any manufacturer) and that can be synchronised to the 235 or 735XT that have wrist HRM's built in.

    That's a big CB, well done


    Good luck to all racing this weekend, run strong :)

  • Is it still possible to get a copy of the program? The thread is so long that it doesn't seem possible read it all!

    I'd love a copy if so.

    Thanks!

    Adam
  • Good luck to all racing tomorrow. I am so nervous and excited about York! My number is 6125. I am in the last pen. I have a few friends and colleagues coming to watch and a husband planning to whizz around on his bike so he can keep popping up to support! I am also dreading post marathon blues that I get but probably will enter York again next year, I love a local marathon! Then next Saturday we are going to Italy for a weeks walking holiday. Thank you for all your support and advice. I'll let you know how tomorrow goes....
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