Shades Marathon Training

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  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades-Wasn't too expensive but we did get her a new pair.
    Big G-I hadn't thought of the run commute option but it's workable once a week,nice way of adding 17 miles,will do that once I'm back in training.
    4 easy miles with the wife today,pacing her around a route.Good to get back out but feel like I've lost a lot,can't believe 9 days ago I did a marathon.
  • Interesting on what shoes everyone uses. Went to run4it in Glasgow today and the guy in the shop was excellent with his advice and guidance. He informed me that for my foot striking the Saucony Omni 15''s are no good for me and wold eventually cause knee and hip problems however the Guide 10 are more suitable. The issues with my toes are caused by the Omni 15''s and that they are to narrow at the foot area. Tried a pair of Brooks Ravenna 9''s on and feel really good on they are also wider at the toe end. Not the cheapest shoe but the Brooks Ravenna 8 are probably the best I've worn so far so just paid the money.

    Ian- good news your new shop is closer to home I think we would all benefit from working closer to home and not travelling.
    Steve- over 200 miles this month is good going. 
    5 easy miles today which takes my monthly total to about 130 miles which is the most miles I have run in a month before.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big G - remind me, I can't remember why you didn't enjoy Palma? 

    Steve - a good training month for you.

    Ian - glad you managed to get out for a little run, how's the achilles now?

    steven - it's worth paying out for the shoes at the running shop, any good advice is invaluable and can end up saving you a fortune by not buying shoes that just aren't right for you.   If you like the Ravennas then you can buy any future pairs on the internet.

    I haven't run in Omni's for a few years but they used to be wide in the toe box, interesting to hear that has changed, I will take them off my shoe wish list.   I have a pair of Ravennas that I use for training, I like them but sometimes feel I need a bit more cushioning, but they are a really good fit.  I think Ravennas are Jugula's preferred shoe.

    You've probably realised I am a shoe junkie, I have a spreadsheet to record all the mileage of my shoes.   At it's highest I had 21 pairs of running shoes, I'm down to 17 pairs now and 3 of those are for races only, so 14 pairs for training :)

    Doing your highest ever monthly mileage is impressive especially as you've been hit by the winter weather up there.

    Pleasant run this morning, good conditions but I think we're in for a spell of colder weather :(
  • Steven - Congrats on your highest monthly mileage!
    Shades - Only 17 pairs.....you are slipping :D:D

    13 miles for me this morning at 8:20s. HR 6bpm lower than 2 weeks ago for the same run, with paces being around the same! Happy with that.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Steve - that's significant improvement on your HR in two weeks :) 

    1SteveMac said:

    Shades - Only 17 pairs.....you are slipping :D:D


    Actually if I have more pairs than that I don't really have the storage space for them.   I'm also on quite a tight budget so I resist buying any more, for now.   I've got quite a few pairs coming up to 400 miles and for some of them they won't go much past 500 miles, although my 4 pairs of Hokas will I think go on for ever.

    Just been notified of this, which is to be my target event this year. :o

    Delighted to announce that Listowel Endurance Festival will take place again this September. The weekend of 21st-23rd. Details will be announced in due course.
    24hr,12hr,6hr & 3hr.

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, it was a  two-lapper, which I don't mind.  But each lap was made up of an out-and-back along quite a dull road (with no shade), and then the second half of each lap was very twisty around the old town so couldn't get into a rhythm.  Plus when I did it it was very, very hot and so struggled around in about 4:50, bearing I mind I got a 10K PB not that long after it.

    What timed event are you there Shades - 12hr or 24hr I'm guessing?

    I'm hoping to get along to the club tonight if I can, so I did just a 4 steady miles this morning.  I got caught in the rain a bit, and it was windy, but it wasn't too bad.  I didn't run at all yesterday.
  • Shades - That's understandable, I know shoes are not cheap! Are you doing the 12 hour?

    Yeah, HR backs up my thinking that I'm in good aerobic shape, it's just the speed work I've struggled with recently. Regardless of the result in my HM, it's all good training for New York marathon later in the year :)
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Steve-Well done on the 200,only done that once but would like to get back there now.
    Steve-Well done on your highest mileage,great point to be at.
    Shades-The achilles feels ok at the minute,bit tender on the inside but can't notice until I touch it.
  • NickW2NickW2 ✭✭✭
    Shades - glad you enjoyed the pilates. It's turned cold again here now after a warm day on Sunday.

    Steve - good mileage this month, you've had a decent amount of quality in there too. Nice improvement in HR. Do you find it's fairly consistent over the run? I find the wrist-based HR on my watch to be too variable to be useful really.

    Ian - sounds like a great way to get some extra miles in once you're back.

    steven - well done on your biggest month! 130 is about my biggest ever too, in March 2016 when training for my first marathon. Last year I peaked at 110 in a month but was more consistent and averaged about 100 for 4 months before my marathon.

    Haven't run since Sunday but got my long run tonight. Decided to change it up a little and instead of the 6k jog in the morning, I cycled and will try and get to the running club early and do a few miles before the normal run. May even try a 4-5 mile hard effort as I am struggling to fit the longer efforts in. Then 8 mile easy club run and cycle home as a warm down. Annoyingly though I got a puncture this morning - maybe the universe telling me I should have run! That's my 2nd puncture this year, having only had one last year since I started cycling in June! Also had 2 punctures on the running buggy since xmas so getting a bit annoyed at it haha. It's not an underlying problem, all different places, today I just felt it suddenly go flat and found a big nail in my tyre :( luckily I carry a spare inner tube, will try and repair the type when I get home.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big G - Hot with no shade and part of the route very dull is no fun.

    Steve - your ultra training will stand you in good stead for NY as the undulations in the final part of the race in Central Park catch a lot of runners out.   I liked that part of the course as it was a refreshing change from the city streets.

    Big G/Steve - well originally I was planning to do the 12 hour.    It's 10 years since I did a 24 hour race, I've done 3 but none very successfully, and I've always wanted to have another go.   I had dismissed trying the 24 hour at Listowel as it starts at 6 pm, being a morning person I'd be tired by the time I was 6 hours into the race, the 12 hour starting at 6 a.m. is much better for me.   But the RO says that they are considering changing the start time of the 24 hour this year to midday which would suit me a lot better, so I'm just waiting for that to be confirmed.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited January 2018
    Shades, also as I was worried about the heat for the Palma marathon, it unfortunately impacted the whole weekend for me as I was trying to stay out the sun for a lot of it.  There were some good points though; on the Saturday AM they did a short social run (from memory, I think it was about a 5K) with cake and coffee afterwards, and it was a big event but not too big, which I do like.  It was one of those where at about 13-miles the Half runners turned left and the marathoners turned right to do it all again, and it was really tempting to just stop at half way.  

    I think I'm going to have to have a large tree chopped down in my back garden.  My garden is a steep slope upwards, and the house is at the bottom of it, so if the tree came down it could come onto the house.   In the recent bad weather large branches (I'm talking probably 15ft long) came off, but did no damage.   I'm no expert obviously, but I was having a look at the base of it and there are some cracks about 4ft high, and I can stick my arm right in one of them (up to my shoulder).  It's a very large beech tree, and it branches off low down, so it's two large trunks really.  Anyway, I got one quote and had to sit down and have a cup of coffee afterwards (£1K) so I'm getting some more quotes and I'll take it from there.  They don't need to take it all away as if they chop up all the branches and trunk it can just all stay up there, which they said they'll do.  They've said it's a day's work for two people, so £1K seemed quite steep, so I'm getting more quotes.  I know there's insurance, all the gear they've got and it's a dangerous job but I suppose I was thinking £500-£750 or something, but I obviously am no expert in this.
  • Yeah I was very surprised when I added it all up that I had run as much hopefully I can keep it going.
    Shades- that's an impressive amount of shoes. Keeping a spreadsheet of the amount of miles each pair have done is a good idea think I will start doing one. I don't mind paying out for my running shoes as the ones I wore for my first marathon was a cheap pair off the shelve in a sport shop needless to say I lost 4 toe nails  because of them. Lesson learnt.

    Steve- good effort lowering the heart rate.
    Big G- I think if I was quoted that price I would have needed something more than coffee.

    A lot of snow showers up here today so went out for a 8 mile run as I love running whilst it snows. With just under 1 mile to go I cross a road and down a short grass bank and onto a path in front of a primary school playground. Yes you've guessed it the kids were out in the playground and I lost my footing down the grass bank due to the mud and went down onto my left side. Before I could gather myself I just heard the children all laughing there heads off. I got up covered in mud and had a good laugh with them so it took away any embarrassment I may have felt.
  • Well done, Steve (on the mileage). I've fallen a few times - the last time was when I was doing side skips as a parkrun warm-up and tripped over my own feet. I couldn't help but laugh at myself.
    Yeah Big G, I'm not a fan of laps. It was bad enough at Liverpool to run past the arena where the half runners had already finished and were parading around in their medals. At least the second half of the race was different though.

    Not good news for me. The calf has got even tighter and grumpier with rest. Good job I decided to book the physio. He's told me to rest for another week and carry on with strength work. Gah! He didn't think it was torn (I didn't either) but has become very overloaded - the hops and skips I did at the running workshop probably didn't help, coming as they did the day before my 17 miler.

    So, looks like walking, yoga and strength work for the next week. :(
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Nick-Unlucky on the puncture,that's something that puts me off cycling.
    Steven-Hard luck with the fall,probably better it was by kids as all you can do is laugh with them,if it was adults laughing you'd be tempted to shout something back.
    Big G-Hope you get a better price.
    My sports massager is doing a level 4 course so free massage,went along tonight for an hours session.
    I'm now really confused as my physio said I could run if I was slow and shorter than usual,but the teacher tonight advised I don't run for 4/6 weeks as the tendon feels like its starting to fray.
    Both should be experts so you'd think I'd get similar advice but it's the opposite,even to the point the physio said use heat and tonight told to ice it  :s
    Anyway easy 6 miles after work before I went.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Cal, my (and Shades/Jelly's) local marathon is a two lapper like that, where the half runners turn off at probably around 12-miles, and the marathoners have to go around again.  It's quite a small marathon in terms of numbers, so both times I've done it I've been on my own for most of the second half.  Sorry to hear your calf is still not great.

    Ian, how frustrating!  I don't know what I'd do with that information, but with achilles I'd be inclined to err on the side of caution I think.  Does it still hurt when you prod it, or squeeze it?  

    I went along to the club's session tonight, and ran there (2.5m) did the session and then ran back from the session (about 2miles) so that's about 13-miles for the day.  The session looked easy on paper - 1-mile effort and then 3min/6min/3min efforts with 60secs recovery - but that was a toughy!  I was disappointed with my mile effort (6:21).  I'd have to go back and check but I'm pretty sure that this time last year I was around 6:05 (I know I didn't dip under 6:00 last year).  But it was nice to get out.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Big G-No pain at all in the day,very tender to touch especially the inside of the tendon.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited January 2018
    Ian, I'm really not trying to be a scare-monger - honestly!  And I'm definitely not advising you, as you have to do what is right for you.  I'm only mentioning what I went through as in some ways it sounds similar to you.  Mine was fine walking around in the day.  I knew I had an issue first thing in the morning as it was tight (I can't describe it as sore) when walking down the stairs first thing, but other than that it was mainly okay in the day.  But when I ran....well I couldn't run properly, without changing my gait/style.  It was sore when I wore a particular pair of trainers, as the heel of the shoe rubbed the achilles, so I stopped wearing them.  In the day, the only way I knew I had an issue is if I prodded it or squeezed it, then it was very sore.  In my case, complete rest from running got rid of it - I had a couple of stalled attempts where I went back and I thought it would be okay, but it seemed to go back to square one.  Then almost without me realising it, after several weeks, it was fine to prod/squeeze, and then it didn't come back, but I built back up slowly.  To be honest, I'm really not sure if the stretches did anything at all, except make me feel like I was being proactive.  I think it was the rest that did it.

    Can you maybe get a third opinion, or is that just OTT?  I know some professionals automatically say "stop running", which isn't what we want to hear.  Are either of the people you've seen runners themselves?
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Not sure if either are runners to be honest.
    What you described is exactly how mine is,except when I run I don't have to change,even when I run it doesn't hurt,more a dull throb but he said thats normal as theres blood flowing then.
    Think I'm more annoyed that their responses to helping me were so far apart,it makes it really hard to know what to do.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2018
    Big G - it's a nice touch for an overseas marathon to have a breakfast run the day before, brings the runners together.  I used to go to the one in Dublin and the one in NY was amazing, we were even addressed by Kofi Annan at NY, followed by a breakfast.

    Steve - you might even get Donald Trump this year! ;) 

    Big G - that's a lot for a tree but I guess it is a lot of skilled work.   Don't you have to contact the council before cutting down a tree just to check that it's OK to do so?   They might have some idea of expected costs.   Easy to see why some folk buy a chainsaw and have a go themselves, and end up in A & E...please don't do that.

    Still a good mile time, you were ill a couple of weeks ago remember.

    steven - 4 toenails eek :#   It's useful knowing which shoes are nearer the end of their life so I  can use the newer ones for longer runs to avoid injury.   

    Glad you kept the kids entertained by your fall :D 

    Cal - a week's rest can make a lot of difference, looks like you just caught that calf niggle in time.

    Ian - oh no, how confusing. 2 experts telling you completely different treatments is awful especially one saying run and the other saying rest.   But heat and ice, you can use both, one after the other is effective treatment, easiest way is 2 buckets, one with cold water one with hot.   

    I can't really advise you what to do but as it's very sore to touch I think you should rest for say 5-7 days and then reassess.   Does your running club have a physio that they know and trust?   


    Chilly wind this morning, ran home on the back road thanks to the huge moon, absolutely beautiful.
  • Shades - Heopfully we get someone other than Trump at NYC!! But I am doing the 5k I think it is the day before, which should be good to shake the legs out.
    Big G - That's expensive....I have a tree in the garden I want to get cut down, but might have to leave it, if it's £1k!!
    Ian - Not good and very confusing. Can't really advise tbh, but do what you think is right. Better to heal now than delay your comeback by running too soon.
    Cal - Hope the calf sorts itself.
    Steven - At least you provided them with the days entertainment!! As for tracking mileage for shoes....Strava can do that.
    Nick - Yes it's wrist based. I've had some funny readings with it. However it seems to be pretty consistent, todays run for instance stayed around 135ish for 5 miles until I picked it up for the last 2 miles (sub 8s) when it then went over 140.

    Easy 7 miles this morning, legs are feeling a bit fresher this week, probably as I've not done any speedwork. Only got a 3 miler planned for Saturday then my 10k race on Sunday, but with warm up and cool down that should be 10 miles.
  • NickW2NickW2 ✭✭✭
    steven - hope there's no after effects from your fall.

    Cal - that's bad news about your calf, hopefully a short rest will see you right.

    Ian - sounds very frustrating with the physios! I think I'd err on the side of caution if you're unsure and rest it. Once you can get back into running properly your fitness will come back quickly.

    Big G - well done on your session. I generally feel you get the training benefit as long as you give the session the right effort, even if your paces aren't where you hope them to be (due to fitness/weather/having a bad day or whatever). What sort of pace do you run the 3/6/3 min efforts at - is that at mile pace as well or a bit slower? If it's 18 mins at mile pace then I can see why it's a hard session!

    I had a really good run last night. Got to the running club early with the plan to do 5 miles hard myself before the normal easy club run. As I think I said on here when I did 5 miles hard a week or so ago, I ran the first mile way too hard and the rest of it was a real struggle. Well this time I paced it much better. Basically did a straight out and back route, splits were 6:22 / 6:56 / 6:53 / 6:38 / 6:58 for a 6:45 average. They might not look that even but looking at Strava's GAP (Grade Adjusted Pace) my they were 6:30 / 6:43 / 6:48 / 6:46 / 6:45, which matches my perception that it was a controlled hard effort that I was able to sustain for the whole run. Well pleased with that - It's the first time I've ever run 5 miles all at sub-7 minute pace.

    I then had a 5-10 min rest while they did the announcements and went with the 8:30 pace group for the 8 mile club run. Had a bit of a stitch for the first mile or so as I was still catching my breath I think, then felt pretty strong for most of the run although the last mile was starting to feel a bit harder. Was glad I didn't then have 4 miles to run home (was cycling instead).
  • JellyJelly ✭✭✭
    I did same session as Big G my mile time trial time was 7.10 and I did 3/6/3 efforts at 7:52 8:03 and 7:40 on garmin first two zone 4 threshold and last one V02max I have wrist not chest so take zones with a pinch of salt. The time trial was in V02max. Good session but I’m leading Improvers next week which is good as have hilly trail half Saturday. 

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited February 2018
    Nick, we were loosely told to do the 3/6/3 at 5K-10K pace, but really it's to try and be consistent across the efforts and think about form.  On my Garmin it measured 0.46/0.9/0.44m, so quite consistent but I was really hanging on at the end of the last effort!  One thing I'm not sure of is that it's billed as a marathon endurance-training session, but I've never seen a session like that for endurance in training plans.  I always thought that basically the LSRs are what builds the base endurance.  I didn't do the session for any reason to do with marathon training really, but I did it because I enjoy that kind of session.

    I did a 10-miler this morning.  It was quite cold, but nice to get out again.
  • NickW2NickW2 ✭✭✭
    Last year I found the 5-8 mile effort sessions to be very useful for my marathon training, which is why I've been keen to get the hard 5 mile runs in lately. I'm sure it all helps, I just think the longer sessions are more beneficial for marathoning.

    Still, 2.8 miles at about 5k-10k pace is a decent workout.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Nick - that's great pacing and you must be pleased to do your first 5 miles at all sub 7 pace 

    Jelly - you're wise to take the Garmin zones with a pinch of salt, same with the VO2, a watch can't possibly know what your VO2 is.

    Big G - the Mavericks have adopted a similar training plan as the Trotters with mile TT's every week and interval sessions, I think the plans are written by the same person who's in both clubs!   I expect the Mavericks doing those session will have the same lack of success as the Trotters have had.  :D  

    T is off to Kenya to train with the Kenyans in March, I think that will change his outlook on training, particularly marathons, will be interesting to hear about his trip.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, yeah it's the same person. He's not a Trotter anymore though and I believe he may have moved away from the area now?  He was a 2:35 runner in his day and he's a lovely chap, but I'm just not sure if it's a marathon endurance season.  
  • JellyJelly ✭✭✭
    edited February 2018
    I wanted to do last night session to get base record, I did every week last year and it did get a bit boring, didn’t  have marathon time to say wether help or not. I think I may be a range of different sessions. My first and last time were not that different. M Queen has been chatting to author of plan and I’m interested to find out thinking behind it. 
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big G - I thought it was the same person.   But I guess it's a way for the marathon runners to train together.

    One of the Mavericks saw a sports psychologist prior to running a great marathon PB and the psychologist has offered to do a free talk to the rest of the Mavericks, needless to say we all want to go along to that, should be really interesting. :) 

    I'm going to a talk by Jo Pavey next week too, I might try and quiz her on her marathon training if I get a chance.
  • That sounds interesting, Shades. I know going into a race I want to do my best, but once it gets painful - the last miles of a marathon, or even a shorter faster race where I'm pushing myself, it gets to a point where I feel like I don't care about my time any more, I just want to get to the end and finish so the pain will stop. You'll have to let us know what the psychologist says (and Jo, for that matter!)

    Calf still hurts but physio told me to do calf raises so I've done a few today and I went for a brisk 3.5 mile walk. As I jacked in my gym membership in 2016 I don't have the option to bike or swim so walking it is, for now. Got the dreaded hot pilates later as well.

    My Zoom Flys arrived too - it's annoying I can't take them out for a spin yet. They look nice. I walked around my flat in them and they're very different from the Frees. They seem to roll me onto my forefoot. That should save a lot of energy when I come to run in them. It'll be interesting to see how they compare.

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, the guy who came up with that session wrote an article for The Trotter mag years ago about his training. Bearing how mind how quick he was, the majority of his training was 60-90secs slower than MP. And that's at his quick pace!  Obviously if you're slower that that, 60-90secs percentage-wise isn't the same. But yet the majority of Trotters still want to push the pace in easy runs. 

    Other than the slow miles, he did a regular/weekly 10-mile time trial, which I suppose ties in with what Nick was saying. 

    Having said all that, my PBs last year came from mainly easy-paced running so I'm sticking with that. 

    It'll be interesting to see what T gets out of going to Kenya. 
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