Shades Marathon Training

Big_G

I should have added I think he was doing 60-70 miles per week consistently. 

SHADES

Jelly - I think you need to know the thinking behind the training plan so that you can make the best of it and understand what the sessions are for.  
Most marathon runners don't achieve their predicted time as they either go off to fast for the first half of the race or their training mileage has been too low and/or their training has been done too fast, it's usually a combination of both.  Of course there are a lot of other things that can go wrong too, injuries etc.

Cal - yes that's exactly what the psychologist did for our club runner, gave him mental tools to help him keep at race pace.   I will let you know, date not set for that yet.  

SHADES

Big G - so some of the Trotters are only following part of his advice no wonder they won't get the times they should, but they should realise that.  I expect it's the same for the Mavericks.

I have been invited to Kenya to train too, met a guy on a plane, but it's not for me, I still have his card though.   He manages a group of Kenyan runners, not the fastest, about 2:10 to 2:15 for the men but still a successful group.

Big_G

Shades, I tried quite hard last year to get the paces changed. However, part of the issue is that there is an ethos in the club that people should move up the groups. But in my view, if they move up they're then training too quickly. Many do it though, I think partly because they're encouraged to by the club. It's on my mind again at the moment as there is a coaches/leaders meeting being planned where all this will be discussed again. 

I know when I go in the social run (which is advertised as 10-12s) I nearly always get a comment that I'm too quick. But I'm not too quick - I stick to that pace, loop back and I don't push the pace. If I want a faster run for whatever reason I'll do a different session. The ethos in the club is that I'm in the wrong group though. 

Even the way the groups are named (A, B ) encourages people to move up. Also the regular comment that not everyone is training for a marathon isn't valid - even if they're training for halfs, they're still training too quickly. 

But I've discussed this many times at the club - it won't change. And....relax!  

NickW2

Big G, that does sound frustrating. I tend to flit around between groups at my club. Normally I run with the 8 minute miling group, but if (like last night) I want to take it a bit easier for some reason, I sometimes go with the 8:30 group, or if I want to push it then I'll go with a faster group. It's quite nice actually as it means I run with quite a variety of people.

Jelly

BIg G I think another fact is that some groups have 3 min Variant and others have only have one minute, also leaders are not sicking to pace, B group leader this week did no looping back which is fine but didn’t enforce it with others, at one point I was mid group and doing 7:40 pace mid group, on his Strava pace was ok but it you run fast and then stand around it’s not a true avg pace. Trouble is Social is too big and I tend to try and stick towards the back so not to increase pace of group.  

Big_G

Nick, yeah, I've tried to tackle it at committee and also with the coach coordinator.  But I don't get anywhere, maybe partly because I'm quite a slow runner by some standards and I'm not a coach (although hopefully that will be changing in the near future).  This isn't a boast, but what I do know is that I am significantly quicker at halfs and marathons than some of those who regularly train in the quicker group.  I've even pointed to our very quick young Trotter.  He's in a different league obviously and does some advanced sessions and a lot of intervals and other work, but his easy runs are around 7min/miles or sometimes closer to 7:30.  OK, to many 7s is quick (well, it is for me anyway!), but to him it's slow and easy (his target MP is around 5:30s).  But it falls on deaf ears, so I've given up.

Jelly, definitely some of the sizes of our groups are too big sometimes, but in my view if people stick to the advertised pace (regardless of if they're a quicker runner at races) they shouldn't be discouraged from that group.  I think they should actually be encouraged, as that to me is correct training.  But as I say, I know it won't change, as the ethos of the club has always been to move up the groups.  Edited to add that if someone is in the 10-12 group but is doing 9s or something, they should either move up or slow down, but that's a different issue to what I'm talking about.

Jelly

I know how you feel with deaf ears, I suggest a questionnaire to find out why people choose the groups they do and what stopping them going into another group as to me unless you understand something how can you improve it. I run more with slower pace runners than the quick peeps and the feed back I get they pick the leaders they trust and rather than going in the group due to pace, I don’t think they alway trust advertisered pace. I lead from Back as in my eyes I would rather a back/slower member has a positive run and keeps running than someone who either should be in next group or a experienced runner who knows their pace.  I go into group depending if I want tempo or easy or recovery run. 

NickW2

Big G, to come at it from the other side, I think it does partly depend on how much you run. By which I mean, my understanding is that some of the benefit of running slower is for the lower chance of injury, which in turn enables you to do more training miles. But if you can't/don't want to fit in more miles, then it's ok to run them a little faster. Having said that, I know a lot of people at my club who will run our club runs of 8 miles, call it an easy run, but run marathons (or in some cases even half marathons) at slower paces. If you're running faster than your target MP then it's not an easy run!

I'm probably guilty of this myself sometimes too haha. I certainly was when I was newer to running, even now I possibly run my "easy" runs a bit faster than I should. I do make a conscious effort to try and keep them feeling easy though, regardless of what the pace actually is.

Big_G

Nick, yeah, I agree it's hard catering for everyone.  Some people aren't interested in racing and just run for fitness etc, and that is of course totally fine.  Our club is inclusive from that perspective.  So if someone runs say just a couple of times a week, then I can understand why they'd want what they consider a good work out.  However, I do think the club sees itself as one that promotes/encourages racing (we organise 5 races of our own, as well as our Club Champs which encourages racing), so I still think most people training for event would benefit from slowing down in training, but it's got not going to happen any time soon.

NickW2

By the way, I forgot to mention earlier about my run last night. I got really cold afterwards when I got home until I'd had dinner, so I think I need to make sure I have some food in the late afternoon if I'm going to keep doing long runs in the evening. Was fine while I was exercising, well apart from my hands freezing on the bike! That's fairly normal though unfortunately!

Ian5

Big G-I agree about the slower paces in training,as you know all my Pb's got hammered the last 4 months of last year and that was after a solid 4 months of consistent slower miles to build a great base,then I speeded up and now ended up injured.When I'm back I am sticking to slower training again.
Decided to have a couple of weeks off and see how it is,looks like my spring campaign is not going to happen though.

SHADES

Big G - I know, you did as much as you could re the marathon training at club.   Really now it's up to the individual runners, but it's a shame as in the club the runners put their faith in the training they are advised to do.   

As we've seen umpteen times on this website, when the runner queries why he/she is not achieving the race times that they have worked so hard for then they need to look at their training and their attitude to training.  Only then will they start to achieve their goals.

Nick - good idea about the food, especially in this weather.   I did ask you a couple of weeks ago whether you had a late afternoon snack before your Wed training, but I think you missed my post.

Ian - so sorry to hear that but injury is the curse of the distance runner.   Did you contact your club re a physio?  Most clubs have a physio that they know and trust and often at discounted rates too.


I'm actually taking a rest day today, first one for a month, Friday is my shortest run day anyway and I'm having a step back week mileage wise.

Big_G

Sorry to hear that Ian.  I think it's the right decision though in the circumstances.

Shades, it is interesting though as since my big marathon PB last year, I've had 4 members private message me asking me about my training.  I haven't given them any plan at all, but I just say to them to slow down.  One in particular still contacts me regularly - she's at the stage now where she feels she's not getting the benefits, so I have just advised her to get booked onto a couple of shorter races to see how she's doing, which she is going to do.  Hopefully she'll do well and she'll regain some confidence in the approach.

I'm getting two more quotes today for this tree so hopefully I'll have an idea of what to do.  After a bit of haggling the original guy has dropped his price to £820 which he has said is the lowest he can go, so I'll see what happens today.  

Shades, just to follow up on something you said, I checked on the council website (which incidentally was very good) and I don't have to contact them about it.  I didn't really know if the tree was protected or not, but on the council site they have a mapping feature that shows the protected areas, and mine isn't one of them so I can just crack on and get it done.  If it had been protected or if it was in a conservation area, I'd have had to contact them.  The one tree feller (or tree fella....) has confirmed this too.  I suspected it wasn't protected as I'm sure I'd have remembered from when we purchased the house, but having said that my memory isn't what it should be!

Big_G

This reminds me actually.  When Claire and I lived in Ipswich we had a flat in a block, and around the back there was private allocated parking.  An elderly chap used to park in my space and although I did try to politely ask him not to, he always parked there so I just parked in his and it made no real difference.  However, one evening a tree came down and crushed his car, which was parked in my space....  I have a pic somewhere.

SHADES

Big G - that's interesting that 4 club members contacted you about your training, as opposed to a casual chat.  The one that feels she doesn't get any benefit from her current training should do well as now she can find a way to train in a way that suits her and should achieve her best performances.

That's a fair discount that the guy has given you for cutting the tree down.   Just as well your tree is not protected, lots have been caught out not realising their tree was protected and the fines can be huge, well into 000's.

Well that serves that guy right for parking in your parking space when you lived in Ipswich, it's good to think that sometimes folk get their just desserts.

So glad I don't have to do a commute to work anymore, 20 minutes to drive the 2 miles back home from the supermarket this morning

Ian5

Shades-Not got round to asking yet,I'll do it today.
Big G-Hopefully the lady will gain the benefits when she next races.
Ankle seems worse today after the sports massage,didn't feel as bad after physio for some reason.

Big_G

Shades, I've heard it's bad over in town.  People were struggling to get into club on Wednesday and it appears numbers dropped because of it.  It's 2.5 miles away, but it's the main reason I ran in.

Just done a 4-miler, and RB from the Mavs flew past me.  He doesn't know me, but he's a great runner isn't he.  He won Plym Trail Half the other week I think, and he's won City to Sea marathon the past two years.  Only a short run this morning as I'm hoping to do the club's Friday club tonight - 12x45sec efforts.   It's a session I occasionally do on my own but haven't done it with the club for a long time.  I'll run there and back, so I think it'll end up being another 6-7 miles in total.

I've had some good news about my door!  I raised a complaint against the courier and they've reimbursed me.  I just brought a replacement letter box and some sealant (£25 in total) and fitted it and it looks good as new, and they've reimbursed me.  When the owner of the company called me it sounded like he'd only recently got his contract with Amazon and he didn't want to jeopardise that, and the money has appeared this morning.  So I can't complain with the service, although really the incident shouldn't have happened in the first place.

SHADES

Ian - I won't comment, you know I'm not a fan of sports massage.   If the club do have a favoured physio I think it's worth getting another opinion.

Big G - last week the traffic was OK.   Wait until Wolborough Street shuts for a week, lorries will have to do a 20 mile detour, it will be chaos. 

Yes, RB is a great runner and incidentally doesn't go to the weekly TT as that isn't in his training schedule so I guess he can't see the benefits to a marathon runner.   He does go to the other training sessions.  He has a championship start at London this year, qualified at Manchester last year, he's a high mileage runner was running 100mpw regularly up to Xmas, then he said his London training was starting after Xmas!

That's a great result re the damaged letter box, at least Amazon did pass on your complaint.

Jugula

Big G, that’s karma in action with the tree landing on that bloke’s car!
If you have an open fire that beech tree will burn well if left for at least 12 months to dry out. If you don’t, you could post an advert locally, I’m sure someone would buy it.

Big_G

Thanks Jugula, second guy has come around and has suggested £800 but he's going to email me a quote later.  But it looks to be in that ball park.  I've another guy coming around at 12.  The fact that I've said they can leave it all up there is what has made it cheaper as they both said that if I wanted it all taken away it would be more expensive.  I don't have a log burner or fire but hadn't really thought about selling the wood.  The only issue is access - it really is very steep.  Although I call it a garden, it's not at all useable but I like it as it is as it attracts lots of wildlife, but really it's kind of woodland with brambles etc.  They have both recommended that they should saw it all up because if they left it whole it would be in danger of sliding down the hill, which obviously wouldn't be good, so that is fine with me.  So it will be in manageable pieces but it would be a big job getting it down from the garden onto the road.  Any idea how much I could ask for it, as matter of interest?  It's a big tree.

Shades, interesting about RB not doing that session.  As I say, he breezed past me but he's significantly faster than me and he didn't look like he was pushing hard at all, so funnily enough I was wondering about his training.  Hadn't realised he was such a high mileage runner, but now you mention that I'm not surprised.

To be honest, I still think the mileage is the big thing that improves most people's running.  If a runner can build up slowly to avoid injury and does a lot of their running easy-paced, I think the increased mileage is what makes the improvements (and consistency!).  After all, if Paula or Mo could have got away with doing less I'm sure they would have done, but mileage is what makes the champions.  Obviously, I'm not a champ but I think even at my level, doing sessions etc is more for enjoyment - I really think it's the easy mileage that makes the biggest difference.

NickW2

Big G - I definitely agree that for most people just running more easy miles will give big improvements. For a lot of people though I guess the limiting factor is how much time you can devote to running, and therefore what's the best training you can do with the time you have available. While still keeping it enjoyable, as after all, it's a hobby.

1SteveMac

Big G - Agree about the mileage being the key to improving. You basically need to lay the foundations to a good aerobic base. Most distance running is aerobic work, so this makes sense. I improved a lot in my PB's when I started running more miles per week and like Ian I took a nice chunk off my HM PB after my first round of ultra training. Some people don't get it though, but if what they do works for them, then that' all good.

Nick - Agree about time constraints too!

Shades - Can I ask why you are not a fan of sports massage? Also that was a great opportunity to go to Kenya, would be interesting to see how they train!

Big_G

Here is the tree from the top of my "garden". Those logs are next door's, on our boundary.



Here I'm stood adjacent to the tree and my house is at the bottom. 

steven renton

Went out intending o do a 5 miler however felt really good so decided to run 10k at a slightly quicker pace but not full out. Ended up being 7.26min per mile so very happy with that at this stage of my training.

Cal Jones

Need advice. Calf is still very stiff and sore. By that I mean it actually hurts (although I do have a full range of motion). I'm worried that it's going to be like my TFL, which was really just an angry little muscle and not actually torn or anything, but wouldn't settle down until I got the cortisone. I'm feeling quite down today as a result. I've been out for a 3 mile walk and I've done a few exercises but I haven't seen any improvement. I already lost my Autumn season - I really don't want to lose my Spring races as well.
(I'm also interested as to why you don't like sports massage, Shades).

Big_G

Sorry Cal, I can't help on that at all really other than rest it if it hurts to run.  But in terms of recovery, I'm afraid I can't help.  Sorry you're down about it all  

I did the Trotters Friday club for the first time in a long time, and ended up doing 7-miles in total, so 11 for the day.  Easy run in and back, but really pushed myself on the 12x45secs efforts.  It's a tough little session.  I'm not sure if I'm doing parkrun tomorrow or not, but if I do it'll be an easy run.  I have the 5-mile race on Sunday, but I really don't think I'm going to PB at it.  This time last year I got quite a big 10-mile PB, but I don't think it's going to happen on Sunday at the 5-miler.  I'll give it a good effort though

SHADES

Big G - RB is doing DD this year too so that will be interesting, I guess he's done it before, not sure.

I don't know any marathon runners that have reached their peak on low mileage, it's all about getting that solid base in.

That's a big tree!   And the access doesn't look easy, I would guess that might be why it's more expensive than you thought it might be.  You could do a David Attenborough programme through the wilderness at the back of your house  

Steve/Cal - re sports massage, I hate to see runners waste their money on something that doesn't work.   There's no evidence that it will heal/prevent injuries and I have known a few end up with injuries after a sports massage.   I used to think it helped break down scar tissue but I can't believe I was so stupid, the only thing that can break down scar tissue is a surgeon's knife.   There's no such thing as removing toxins either.  What sports massage does do is that it makes the runner feel better mentally, especially if they've had to pay a lot for the treatment, it calms them down and convinces them that they are sorting any niggles.   However, it's found that a good walk and a hot bath with a cup of tea can have exactly the same effect.   There's a brief article here, this was written by an injury specialist 

http://www.runnersradar.com/advice/ask-the-experts/ask-the-expert-can-massage-help-prevent-injury-and-soreness/


Cal - go easy on the exercises, don't overdo them, while it's so sore the exercises might be too much.  If it's less sore when you have shoes on with a some support (or a small heel) then wear them as much as you can, maybe going barefoot is just too much for the calf at the moment.   Although there's conflicting advice about when to use ibuprofen for injuries if that was me I would take ibuprofen for 2 or 3 days. 

Pilates is booked, going out for my run after another coffee    When I got up it was chucking it down and I think it was a mixture of sleet and rain, so there is probably snow on the moors, that's eased off now but I think I'm going to get very wet (again), was going to do my hilly run but I think the road will be flooded and don't want to run through standing water in February.

Big_G

Shades, I have to confess I did a bit of Strava stalking of RB. I wasn't surprised to see that a lot of his running seemed to be around 8-8:15s, and his MP will be more like 6:30s. So although he breezed past me (I was doing 9:30s at the time) he was well within himself. It's really sobering though that his easy pace is my MP. The young Trotters' easy pace is more like my 5K pace!

I've driven to parkrun today whereas I usually do a bit there and back. Legs are quite tired from last night so it'll just be an easy-ish run this morning. 3 laps on tarmac, but the last bit will be very, very muddy with large, deep puddles. 

SHADES

Big G - I think he's targeting a sub 2:40 at London.   He's taken the Mavericks on a very hilly long run this morning so he doesn't stick to the flat for training.

Had a good run, just light rain which was fine but nasty cold wind in places, roll on Spring.