Shades Marathon Training



  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, I had wondered if there would be something in the measurement process though, because world records can only be set on eligible courses; there is a rule that says "The decrease in elevation between start and finish shall not exceed an average of 1m per km".  The local 10K definitely doesn't adhere to that, even if it was officially measured.

    I did 6-miles this morning, with 4 a bit quicker at least partly because I got caught in those few flakes of snow and it was cold!
    Big G - maybe they only check the elevation of the start and finish if they're in different locations, and far enough apart to be queried.   

    Glad I wasn't the only one to see that snow ;)
  • Ha, Shades, I have a bit of a back tweak going on as well. Did some funny straddle side stretch in yoga on Tuesday and it didn't like that much. It's muscular, not spinal, but it's uncomfortable nonetheless. It's funny because I tweaked the same bit this time last year, just before Hampton Court, only that time it was much, much worse.

    Re: the shoes - the drop isn't the issue so much as the springy carbon fibre plate in the sole. Feels a bit odd but in a good way. My shoes are the cheapy version of the shoes the guys used to do the Sub-2 attempt. (Cheap being relative, as they're normally £130 vs £200 for the Vaporfly, but I got mine for £89). Reviews seem to indicate that they need a lot of breaking in, unlike my Frees which are like a sock and are comfortable right away.

    Anyway, I've put off running in them for today as I am a bit achey (back, plus the rigours of the hot pilates class) and didn't sleep well. Taking a rest.
  • NickW2NickW2 ✭✭✭
    Ian - hope the run this evening goes well.

    Shades - sounds like your base training has gone very well this winter. We have a few flakes this morning too but nothing more.

    Big G - good luck for the Humdinger on sunday.

    Cal - look after yourself.

    I feel a bit rubbish today. Yesterday late afternoon my cough started getting worse, having almost disappeared on Weds, and then in the evening I got really cold - so much that when I went to bed I was in PJs, dressing gown and duvet and was still shivering (which is very unlike me, normally my wife is the cold one and I always want to turn the heating down). Then later in the night I went to the other extreme and had no covers on as I was melting. Also lots of muscles feeling generally achey. I have a squash match tonight, would probably have cancelled but it's a team game and I don't want to let people down as they probably won't be able to get a replacement at this short notice. Plus I am kind of hoping that it might sweat it out of me - bit of a "kill or cure" type of thing. We will see haha.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    In terms of elevation I don't think any sites seem to measure correctly,I usually take the middle of my tomtom and what it says on Strava and go with that.
    Went for 5 miles tonight,seems promising but don't want to get my hopes up,could barely feel any aching and no pain,currently icing and seeing what happens tomorrow.
    Found a brilliant article,it's a few years old now but really goes in to detail and outlines when and when not to run
  • Evening shadies, 

    Big_G - the differences between strava and garmin Connect are always quite different. Not sure which one rounds up or down but my fastest marathon time is about 90sec faster on strava than garmin.

    Steven - sorry to hear about your loss , always tough no matter who it is.. .

    After strava not playing ball and uploading yesterday's run it seems to be working again but it looks like I'll have to manually upload it.. Had a good session yesterday. 8miles with 6 x 30s hill sprints and today's was a 6 mile easy. I'll run the 20miles home from work tomorrow. Finishing the week on Sunday with a 6 mile easy and my first 50mile week.. Training next week could be interesting cause we are driving upto Scotland to see my folks so I'll have to pack my winter woollies .
    Cal - hope your back is OK :/   Not a good time to try your new shoes if your back is not right.     Is the carbon plate the part that is supposed to give the return of energy?

    I read a brief bit about the latest Nike shoes to hit the market, the React and a runner can expect to get 600 miles out of them, compared to the usual 500.   That's good as now other shoe brands will follow to make their shoes higher mileage which can only be good for us distance runners.

    Nick - that sounds like flu, hope you're OK

    Ian - that is such a good article, I've bookmarked it.   I've read most of it, just skipped a few bits but it's really informative and the treatment advised is clear and concise.   It's quite encouraging too that you can continue to run as long as you stick to the 5/10 rules etc.   

    Iain - yes I've heard that Strava rounds up times to faster than they actually are, Garmin does too but not by so much.

    Hope it's not too demanding a day at work with having to run the 20 miles home!

    What's the highest weekly mileage in your new training plan?

    My back feels a bit better today but as it's very cold again this morning I'm going to rest today too.   I don't want to run in the cold while my back is not 100%, if it's OK tomorrow I may do a Hadd test as I will have had the prescribed pre test rest.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Iain/Shades, I don't think it's that Strava rounds down times as such, but one of the fields it shows is "Moving Time".  But for me the "elapsed time" on Strava is always the same as what was on my Garmin.

    Ian, great article there.  Thanks.

    I did a 12x45-sec effort session on my own last night, which was okay and took me to 13 miles for the day.  Doing parkrun today and with the race tomorrow it should be 70-miles for the week, which will be a first (I didn't do that many in the week of my double).  Obviously it means I haven't tappered at all for the Half tomorrow, but the main goal is to feel strong whilst out on the course and not too bothered about time.
    Big G - a good week's mileage for you and a light one for me!

    There's a one page feature in the latest RW on downhill running and it quotes a study that found that a fast 4 mile downhill run causes similar muscle damage as a mountain ultra up to 200 miles would do!   

    That certainly explains the painful DOMS I get after DD, so I'm going to do lots more downhill running this year as my DD prep.

    I'll save my copies of RW for you, will see you at Tavy 13

    Good luck at the Humdinger tomorrow and all racing this weekend.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades/Big G-What I really liked about that article,compared to most,Is that he goes through pretty much every reason and possible help and disects each one and not just his favoured solution like a lot.
    Shades-I think your test will show good results after your recent training.
    Big G-That's incredible mileage,don't forget to step back at some point though.
    The achilles is a bit more tender today but no more than usual in the morning,will try another run tomorrow.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Thanks Shades.  I'll bring those two books back to Tavy 13 as well.  I've read them both, and really enjoyed them - especially the ultra book!

    Ian, next week will be a reduced week I think.  It's two weeks until Malta, so the week before the marathon will be reduced as well as I'll be in Malta so won't do long runs that week, although I hope to get out for some sessions before the race.  It's ramped up a bit as with tomorrow I'll have ran 12 days in a row, but at the moment I feel fine.  The majority of those miles have been easy paced, which has helped too.
    Ian - After reading that article I expect that you're doing the heel drops religiously. 

    Big G - glad you enjoyed the ultra book.   Incidentally the note to me from Peter tucked into the book is from one of the runners mentioned in Chapter One when they are doing the 24 hour race, he is the Peter Hart the farmer who used to be a great ultra runner, was 2nd in the famous London to Brighton race in about 6 hours.  I met him at Two Bridges and we still exchange Xmas cards, he still runs but not much but he still continued to do the odd marathon even when he slowed to 6+ hours, he must be about 80 now.

    I'll bring another couple of books for you to read too, have you read Ron Hill's The Long Hard Road?   I have Part 1 and Part 2, they are inspirational reading.

    Lucky for you going to Malta in a couple of weeks, away from the miserable weather here.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades-I certainly have been,been doing it since I got my diagnosis as that was the one thing everyone agreed on.
    Suppose it's very hard to gauge but if my Achilles holds out how should I start running again? All will be easy pace for a while but not aure how to increase the miles,cant really find a straight answer.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited February 2018
    Thanks Shades, I'll reread that section.  No, I haven't read those Ron Hill books...

    Yes, looking forward to Malta.  I was chatting to someone yesterday who was saying it's great to run around there.  He wasn't talking about the marathon, but just the town where the marathon ends, which is where I'm staying (Silema).  He recommended running around to Valletta and then catching the boat back, so I may do that one day.  It's not going to be blisteringly hot I don't think (which suits me), but nicer than here anyway!

    Just re-read your previous post about the 4-mile effort on the legs in comparison to an ultra.  That's remarkable!  I know when I was about half a mile from the finish at Cornish and the marshal was trying to be kind by saying "You're nearly there now - it's just down this hill", I remember thinking "I wish it was uphill!" ;)    It's funny, as at the time I felt I ran really well on the main down hill section as I picked loads of people off, but that last half a mile was more of a shuffle!

    I am quite pleased with the February mileage really.  Famous last words but I don't feel like I've overdone it.  My legs do feel tired but I feel okay in myself.  When I knew I wasn't doing any marathons in February other than Malta, I knew it was an opportunity to get some decent training in, especially after the poor start I had in January due to my cold.  I know in March the training mileage will drop as I have 4 marathons lined up (plus Tavy 13) so I wanted to make the most of February, which I feel I have done.  I think with tomorrow's race I'll end on 69.4 this week, so I may well do a shuffle as a warm down afterwards to round it up to 70 ;)  
  • Sorry to hear your back's still not right, Shades. Mine's not too bad - feels more like I've slightly tweaked the QL. My QL is narky anyway - I have a tendencey to slouch slightly to the right when at my computer as I rest my arm on that side when using the mouse. I really have to stop that - I'm sure why I have so many problems with stuff on the right side (hip and calf...although the hammy problem is the left).
    And yeah, that's what the plate thing is for. I've read reviews where people say it takes a few seconds off their mile times. Well, in my case that's largely irrelevant seeing as I'm nowhere near GFA anyway, but any energy saved will be beneficial over a marathon. I would like to try them at the Big Half, though not Hampton Court as it starts in a field and I don't want to get them muddy!

    Ian - keep up with those heel drops. My achilles got so bad it had a big lump on it,  but it's fine now. (One of the few bits of me that still is!)

    Big G - I've been reading about Malta in the current Runner's World. It sounds like a lovely race (although they reviewed the half rather than the full). Sounds like there's plenty of downhill. Could be good for a PB if it's not too warm!

    Went to parkrun today - just my local. It was frosty out so even my warm-up mile was quicker than normal (10:25 - usually it's 11!). I ended up running 28 minutes dead, although I expect my result will be a bit slower due to the slow start. I was happy with my cadence and stride length and I felt pretty good. I'm far below where I was this time last year but given my injury woes, I'm happy with it.

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited February 2018
    Cross post there Ian.  When I came back I really just tried to listen to my body, but I was also quite cautious.  I think for the first couple of weeks or so I didn't really do more than 6 or 7 miles and took it really, really steady.  I know when I came back, I felt an ache which felt more like a muscle ache than the injury pain but that did worry me.  I took a rest day though and the day afterwards it was okay again.

    Cal, Malta is supposed to be quite a fast one I think, but I'll just see how I feel on the day.  It's an early start as I have to get an early bus from the finish to the start area, but I am looking forward to the event.  I could have booked a hotel at the start town rather than the finish town, but I just fancied being nearer the finish so I could easily hobble back and jump in the shower quickly after the race.  Plus from my quick research it seemed there was more to do around the finish town and as I'm there a week that was a consideration too.  With Malta, I do have 5 in 5 weeks which I know will be on my mind on the start line of Malta too.  As I type this, I'll honestly be happy with a sub-4, but if I feel good on the day I'll just crack on, which is similar to what I did at Nottingham.  If not, I'll try and get a sub-4.

    Although I'm happy with my mileage, I haven't really done any long runs at all - my longest has been 16 (with the exception of the one marathon I did in January).  Having said that, I have done quite a few 10-13s so I'll just see how I feel on the day.
  • Ooh, better than expected - 27:56 - best run since the hip injury and 1st in age group. I'll take it. :grin:
  • JugulaJugula ✭✭✭
    Blimey Cal, that’s brilliant! Age group winner after those injuries is amazing.
    Ian5 said:
    Shades-I certainly have been,been doing it since I got my diagnosis as that was the one thing everyone agreed on.
    Suppose it's very hard to gauge but if my Achilles holds out how should I start running again? All will be easy pace for a while but not aure how to increase the miles,cant really find a straight answer.

    Ian - there isn't a straight answer and at this stage you can't prepare a training plan.  You just have to take each day as it comes and assess what you think you can safely do without going over that pain threshold.   

    Big G - Malta  marathon has always been popular with the 100MC and you'll find quite a few Brits there.

    Yes, I think I trashed my quads a bit in the downhill section at the Cornish, I had DOMS after that race.

    Have a good race today, do that .6 of a mile as a warm up :) 

    Cal - most of us have one side stronger than the other but we're so used to compensating for any imbalance that we aren't aware of it until something goes wrong.    

    I'm not aware of my imbalances but when we do the roll backs in Pilates after a few I'm not straight on the mat and the instructor tells me that's because one side of my body is stronger than the other.

    I wouldn't be happy getting new shoes muddy either at a race.

    Good news on your parkrun time yesterday

    My back is a lot better but I still have a slight twinge so am taking another rest day from running.   I will run tomorrow.   I haven't really been comfortable enough to do any housework the last couple of days but feel today that I'm OK to get a few things done
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Cal/Shades, about imbalances, a couple of years ago Steve Way tried to get his running style sorted - he sort of drags one arm.  He tried to get it sorted but introduced other issues so just went back to running what was normal for him.

    Shades, bad news you have to do some housework....but good news your back is starting to feel better!

    Cal, well done on your time at parkrun.

    I went to the gig last night - British Sea Power are the band, in case anyone has heard of them?  There was a group of us and one guy is more of an acquaintance than a close friend, but he was trying to get me to drink.  "Oh go on, have a drink".   I just kept laughing and saying "Nah, I'm okay thanks", but it was getting bit draining!  On the way home I was wondering what the motivation is around that; what impact did me not drinking actually have on his night, and why did he want me to drink?  Also, why did I feel I had to explain myself about this decision to not drink?  What difference does it actually make to anyone who was there last night?  I know it's probably a shock for them as I would usually be boozing along with them, but the different reactions are interesting ranging from some not caring at all, to others almost being offended!  I decided I had to stay out of rounds as I didn't want someone to spike my drink (I'm sure they wouldn't but I didn't want to risk it).  Nevertheless, I got through it and a had a good night :)  

    I'm tired this morning (didn't get to bed until 1am) but at least I'm not hungover, so I'm looking forward to the Half.  Different forecasts seem to be available, with some saying snow and some saying sunny, but cold.
  • Morning folks.. 
    At the moment we are in the car driving the 420miles upto Edinburgh for some much needed R&R but I will still be running. .im a little frustrated cause I didn't run as planned yesterday. I was reminded we hadn't packed anything or bought food etc so after work it was pouring with rain an after getting things done it was dark so not ideal to try run 20miles. I should be able to get out after we get up there for a quick 10 or so. 

    With regards to imbalances and running styles. I know from my garmin data and my shoes I favour my right and I run slightly bow legged with my knees out. I have thought about seeing of I can change that but it might slow me down so I thought why fix what isn't broken. 
  • Iain - BodyLogic (physio that sponsors my club) does a course to fix your stride and the before and after videos we saw looked quite convincing. But at my age, I'm not sure I'd even be able to fix what is so ingrained. When I did the workshop (really a taster session for the course) and the coach was trying to get us to implement the drills we'd done and run properly, a couple of guys commented that the fixes made running seem easier, whereas for me, a chronic shuffler, it felt really tiring to lift my legs up more.
    Enjoy Edinburgh!

    Big G - I'm not a big drinker and I used to get that a lot. You did well to stick to your guns. There are times when I enjoy a drink, but that happens a couple of times a year, really - holidays or Christmas. Beyond that I don't even think about it.

    Shades, glad the back is starting to ease up. Having buggered mine a couple of times (pushing too hard into a yoga pose days before Hampton Court last year, when I honestly didn't think I'd make the start line, and then when I had the TFL problem) it really is debilitating. Take care.

    My run today was a bit disappointing. I was hoping to do 15-18 miles (18 being optimal) but I just wasn't feeling it today and only managed 13.1. The sunshine was lovely but there was a really bitter wind that took the fun out of it. Back grumbled a bit, left glute grumbled (HHT), left foot grumbled, right calf grumbled although not in the same place as before (more down in the soleus this time). I felt tired by 8 miles, and that was despite having a gel at 5.5 miles (since I was intending to go further). I really wasn't enjoying it.
    Splits were fine - 11.12 for the opening mile and then 10:40s and 10:30s with a couple of 10:20s - it wasn't like I was overcooking it. I slept OK, ate well yesterday, and I can't blame my menstrual cycle since I haven't had one since the Autumn. So I don't get it. I guess it was just one of those days.

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited February 2018
    I did Humdinger Half this morning and had a really great run!  

    The race started at 11am and as it's 1hr up the road that was just as well after the late night last night.  It was a really friendly atmosphere there, and quite a low key event with the race HQ in a sports centre so there were plenty of loos and the showers afterwards were warm and very welcome!

    I, along with a few others, were umming and ahhing about what to wear.  The car was showing 4deg so it was cold, and at the start there were snow flakes in the air, but a last minute decision saw me start the race in just a T-shirt/vest and gloves/buff as I took off the long sleeved top.  Although cold and there was some rain/snow in the air, it ended up being the correct decision for me.  I felt fine

    This is a hilly route, but I'd had a look at the route profile and knew that the first couple of miles or so were relatively easy, so decided not to push it too much along there, as I knew what was about to come - and sure enough the road reared up ahead.  But it was a stunning course, all ran on roads, although some of them were country lanes with grass/mud in the middle of the road, or with potholes.  But I never felt in danger of falling over or anything like that.

    At about 5.5mile there's a steep descent but I knew the main draw of this race was still to come - The Humdinger Hill.  I'd ran all the way to this point, but knew it was unlikely that I'd run the whole of this hill, and a few people did overtake me at this point, but I really thought I'd get them again later in the race.  I just walked very quickly and I feel this strategy suits me.

    From 8-miles, it's basically down hill, with a very steep 1-mile down hill section from around 9.5 miles and I felt I was flying along here.  From about 11, it's basically a flat/slight downhill run to the finish and I overtook everyone who had previously overtaken me on "the hill" and picked off a few others as well.  I pushed pretty hard to the finish and I was really pleased with a finish time of 1:40:44 for 48th position out of 187 finishers.

    For completeness, splits were as follows but you can see they were all over the place due to the route, but I'm pleased I felt strong and had a really consistent race.  Yes, I walked the large hill, but that is what I'll be doing on the large hills on the DD so I'm not bothered about that at all.
    Splits: 7:15, 7:48, 9:00, 8:08, 7:32, 7:57, 9:09, 7:51, 7:38, 6:47, 6:52, 6:59, 6:58 with the last bit at 6:34-pace, for an average of 7:41.

    The medal was a bit different as well, and is one to keep.  It's made of fluted glass.  There is a T-Shirt that fits me as well, and with a chip timed event it was pretty good value at £21.  I was one of only two Trotters there, which I was surprised about, but it's a great event.

    For info, the elevation stats:
    - Race website: 1380ft
    - Strava: 1282ft
    - Garmin Connect: 1057ft

    So again, not much use really!  If I get time, I'll try and get the route on mapometer, but that may be a bit tricky as I don't know the route so will have to try and follow my Strava route which may take time.  I'll see.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    PS, I did a warmup at the start and got over my 70-miles for the week :)  
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Big G-Well done on today's race and the 70 mile week,that's a really smart medal.
    Shades-Glad your back is starting to get better.
    Went to run today but the achilles was quite sore so left it until tomorrow.Since I've been injured I've decided to start exercises properly when I return so started them today with not running.I'm hoping this injury has given me the kick to step everything up a gear.
  • Well done, Big G! That's a nice medal. I've got a wooden one (Royal Parks) but not glass.
  • JugulaJugula ✭✭✭
    Well done Big G, great time.
     I did 1:52:18 at Worthing, miles 7-10 were into an icy very strong wind and really took it out of my legs, the last 3 we had the wind at our backs which I was grateful for. Overall a good, well organised event, I didn’t really look at the medal, I was more interested in the bananas on offer!
  • Well done Jugula! That wind was awful enough in London - I bet it was a killer on the sea front.
    Big G - I doubt Steve Way's arm has any effect on his running, different if he was a sprinter.   We all have our own quirks and we can easily recognise folk we know by the way they run or walk long before they are close enough to recognise by sight.

    I guess your friends want to encourage you to drink as that supports their drinking behaviour.  It's the same if a friend wants cake, but knows they shouldn't for whatever reason, and you then have cake gives them 'permission' to have that cake too.

    Great running at the Humdinger, I'm going to pencil that in for next year although I would want warmer weather.   I think you paced that really well especially that big hill.   Nice medal too.   If you're going to measure the elevation here's another website I've found  

    Well done on the 70 miles for the week too.

    Iain - I'm not surprised you missed your 20 mile run, doing a long run does need a clear space in the diary and you would have been even more tired for that very long drive.   Sometimes it's just not possible to squeeze every run in to our busy lives and you just have to let it go.

    Don't worry about your running action, if it doesn't cause you injury then you're fine.

    Cal - those guys that found the running drills made their running easier wouldn't be running like that in a marathon.   A low leg lift is good for marathon running.

    Sorry your run didn't go well but we all have days like that.

    Ian - sorry you couldn't run yesterday due to the achilles.   Good that you're starting your exercise/stretch routine.

    Jugula - a good race for you in tough conditions, well done.   Not sure a banana on the finish line in a February race would tempt me, hot coffee or a pasty perhaps.

    I have run today, 3 days off and it seems like months since I ran.   Very cold and frosty here, pavements dry in my road but as soon as I got to the end of the road and turned right I had a quarter of a mile with slippery pavements, where they've gritted it's attracted the moisture and frozen but when I got onto the Torquay road, pavements were dry.   Back was stiff for first mile and I told myself that if it hadn't eased after a mile I'd turn for home but as I settled into the run my back was fine and I did a good comfortable 6 miles.  I have cancelled my Yogalates this morning as I'm not up to that yet.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, well I hope the one acquaintance knocks it on the head as I'm going on a stag do with him and few others later in the year!  I was wondering if him seeing me trying to not drink made him acknowledge what he knows about his own drinking, which is probably that he also drinks too much.  But I wasn't being preachy or judging in any way at all, so wasn't challenging him verbally on his drinking, but maybe him just seeing me not drinking was enough to irk him.

    Yes, I'd definitely add that Humdinger Half to the list of possibles for next year.  If I'm still doing the Club Champs role (which I hope I am) I'll consider it for that as well.  I know you mentioned trying to find a hilly marathon and I haven't really been able to do that, but I think Tavy 13 and Humdinger are about as challenging as you can get for official road Halfs.

    Jugula, well done on your half as well.
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