Shades Marathon Training



    Jugula - part time work and time for running is a much better work/life balance :)  

    Big G - I wouldn't advise doing all your running, training and racing in the same shoes, ideally at least 5 different models to rotate.   You could certainly do your long runs in your race shoes though.  I have some race shoes in my training stable but only as they have reached too high a mileage for racing but are still OK for shorter runs and some newer Adrenalines a model that I no longer use for racing.  I have 11 different model of shoes for training out of 14 total pairs...I'm not suggesting that you need that many though ;)  

    Which formula did you use to calculate that marathon time?   This one?

    If so, remember that predictor is based on Fetch users so includes all those that didn't do much training etc. so it predicts much slower times than are realistic.  If I use my actual half PB it gives me a marathon PB of 4:57, my marathon PB is 4:24.   If I use the half marathon time I was capable of but didn't get it predicts a marathon time of 4:44, 20 minutes slower than my PB.  

    Not only that but I was injured when I got my marathon PB and could have done 4:19 on the day if I hadn't decided to nurse my injury for the last few miles, I knew I could still get a PB and I was hating the course so deliberately slowed down.  In hindsight I wouldn't have done that, I should have gone for the 4:19 as my injury lasted for ages and I never reached that level of fitness again.

    Best predictor for marathon time is half marathon x2 + 7 minutes

    I hope you've survived germ free.  Marathon running turns us into hypochondriacs at times. 

    Ian - can you defer Manchester?

    Did my hilly route, town road is still closed due to road works so a few more cars on my route which was a bit annoying.   Not a brilliant run, felt a bit tired so will ditch my planned 2nd run of the day, still a good week though, 65 miles.    

    Big G - I saw in the MDA that young Trotter did 1:12 at Exeter Half, he is doing well.  So that time could get him 2:31 at London :)
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, also the young trotter wasn't too happy with his time.  He was happy with his effort, but not overjoyed with his time, partly as he was running a lot of it on his own (although I did see AH was a fairly close second).  He's targeting Reading Half where he is hoping for 1:08/9, so we'll see what he does there.  That is one of the sad things in giving up on my press role, as I'll no longer be reporting on him.  I think he is hoping for 2:25-ish at London.

    I used the formula from the Guardian article; Half Marathon Time * 2 to the power of 15.  Using 2xHalf Time + 7mins gives me 3:13, which I'm obviously way off from at the moment but is certainly a motivator.  I know it's easier said than done and there's no point just saying it as I have to go out and do it, but actually I do think I could do 3:20 (or quite close anyway) on a day if everything comes together.  I'm really just basing that on how I felt at Nottingham and how I ran that race, including the first few miles being comparatively slow.  I'd be delighted with 3:13 as that would be GFA, which is still a long term goal of mine, but I know I'm way off that at the moment.

    Regaring training shoes, I'll get another pair or two of my Asics GT-2000 then.  I've been using them for a while and they're great.

    I went out for a nice run today and did 10.5.  Some of it was very muddy so I just walked those bits as I didn't want to slip over, but I enjoyed it.
    Big G - Reading is a fast course and if conditions are good then he could get a significant PB, I guess he wants that to give him the confidence to go for that 2:25ish in London.    

    You'll still be a strong supporter of his despite not being the PO

    Re the predictor, the 3:13 is if everything goes absolutely perfectly in training and on race day and we know that is a huge ask.   It's best to use a recent half time for a current marathon prediction as you would for training paces but it's still good to know what you can aspire too. You are still young in your marathon career, but look how far you've progressed just in the last year.

    I had to walk through a bit of mud too, I wanted to come back on Coach Road but as it's the alternative route it's a bit dangerous so I ran down Wolborough Street on the lovely new tarmac they've laid,  then up the Old Totnes Road to the church then up the footpath in the field which the farmer has been driving in his tractor and I couldn't run it as it was so slippery and muddy, so walked to the end to the road again.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, I've heard Reading is a fast one and he'll probably have people around him there too, which must help.  Although that Exeter course is flat, it is twisty in places and I think there was a headwind for bits of it too.  It still makes me laugh that his easy/recovery pace is 7min/miles, which obviously is an easy pace for him!  If he gets his target at London, he'll claim the record for his age group, which is what he's focusing on.  Whether he'll do it remains to be seen, but it's exciting non-the-less.

    I did my Kerswell-Compton-Marldon-Cockington-Edginswell-Kerswell loop.  But I took a short cut across a muddy field/track to Edginswell as I didn't want to do 12-14 today and was happy with 10.5.

    I did come across some signs for footpaths - John Musgrave Heritage Trail.  Not sure if you know it, but according to the signs I saw, it looks like there's a section that you can go from Cockington to Totnes, which I may check out one day when it's a bit drier.  I'll need to do some Googling about it - I believe it's an LDWA/Ramblers route.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    PS, I forgot to add but I believe our Trotter got an invite to the Reading race so he's getting noticed.
  • Ha ha Shades, it's true that my current MP, based on my Manchester PB, is 10:14 min/mi but I wanted to try and run at 4:15 pace, which is roughly 9:40. Now I know I'm highly unlikely to get 4:15 in Manchester, but it'd be nice to get close at some point this year - maybe Liverpool, or most likely Chester (if I can avoid getting laid up beforehand). So today's goal was twofold: sub-9:40 miling and a negative split.

    I figured today was a good day to experiment. There was the parkrun yesterday, and I also ate a banana before I left the house (I don't normally eat before races, but I did have a banana before Liverpool last year due to the later start, and found I could stomach it). I had to get up early (set the alarm for 5:30 but actually woke up at 5) as there were no trains from Balham to Clapham Junction early enough to connect with the Thames Ditton train, so the best option was to walk the 2 miles there. Saw the sun rise on the way there and the sky was glorious.

    Once I'd done the usual portaloo, bag dump etc I had to make a decision about which wave to start in. I started in the 1:50 wave last year when I got my PB but that obviously wasn't on the cards, so it was a choice between 2 hours or 2:10. Since I wanted to go a little faster than 2:10 I opted for the 2 hour wave, which proved to be the right decision.

    I got through the first mile in 9:38 which felt fine. The second mile had a couple of pinch points where I had to slow a lot, so it was a bit slower at 9:46. After that I hit three consecutive 9:35s followed by a 9:34 and I felt quite comfortable (enough that I was able to briefly talk to a couple of other runners).

    I was feeling strong at the halfway point - perhaps a little too strong as I recorded a 9:10 which was a bit quicker than I intended (and surprising as I managed to waterboard myself at the drinks station).

    Mile 8 took us along the river and my legs started to feel a bit heavy. Had I gone to quickly in the last mile? Had the parkrun buggered me? At this point I concentrated on hunting down and passing the runners in front of me, and I managed a 9:28.

    I seemed to recover a bit and got a 9:22, then mile 10, where we pass Hampton Court and get a high-five from Henry VIII, I managed 9:13 (thanks Henry!)

    I was passing a lot of runners by this point - I guess most would have been inexperienced runners who set out too fast - been there myself enough times. I did a 9:22 and then, in mile 12, a 9:14. I still felt pretty good so I knuckled down for the last mile. "One of your teammates is ahead" someone told me, so I pushed on and caught up with her, gave her an encouraging word and went on past. 9:08 for the last mile - sub-2 pace. Now I could see the finish so I pushed on and got to the finish in 2:04 (watch said 2:04.2 but it was rounded down in the results). The lady I passed came and thanked me after and said I spurred her on to go a bit quicker. She wasn't far behind me.

    Average pace was 9:25, which I am pretty happy with given that, just two weeks ago, I was laid up with an angry calf. Said calf gave me no trouble (bar a little discomfort in the heel for the first couple of miles) but the hamstring was grumbling the whole way, as I expected.

    I can't compare the race to last year, where I'd come off a PB-filled Autumn season and hadn't had any downtime, but I was a minute quicker than the previous year where I was recovering from the dreaded groin strain. All in all, a successful race.

    Now for the Big Half in two weeks! Got my number yesterday, so, based on today, I think I can be a little excited.
  • Big G- I'm thinking of keeping my Saucony Guide 10's for my training runs and my Brooke Ravenna 9's for my long runs and my races. I started out running in Asics and loved them so may go out and get a pair which will allow me to run in all different shoes.

    Cal- Fantastic time today especially with all your injuries you've went through.

    18.5 miles for me this morning. Conditions were almost perfect just a slight breeze so a lot better than the strong winds we have been getting lately. Set out to only do 18 miles however got me route wrong so was left with the choice of walking home or running the final .5 so decided to run. The run felt really good ended up running faster than I wanted to run and finished with an average pace of 8.31 per mile. Finished the run knowing I could have run further so very positive going forward.
  • JugulaJugula ✭✭✭
    Great time Cal, sounds like you paced it well too.
    Big G - I'm sure he will have runners of his pace at Reading, great that he got an invite.  It must be great to win a race but it can also be a very lonely place.

    No, I've never heard of that footpath.   I won't be venturing there, I only do well manicured off road ;) , uneven surfaces make my foot ache.

    Cal - that's a great result, well done. :)   Good pacing and only roughly 30 seconds a mile slower than your PB so that's given you a good idea of where you're at with your training and what you can do at Manchester.   Good to hear the calf was OK too.  I'm pleased that you are starting to be able to eat a little too on race mornings.

    Did you wear your new shoes?

    steven - that's a good idea re the shoes.  Good time to buy the Asics, lots of bargains around.
    Glad I'm not the only one that miscalculates a route, that's a very good long run.   When is your next race?

    It's a balmy 9 degrees here this morning and no wind B) , had a lovely run, birds are singing and an owl hooting.   My back is fine when I'm running but it's still not right, giving me odd twinges at other times.  So have cancelled Yogalates today and Pilates tomorrow as I really don't want it to get worse at this stage in my training, hope I can go back to Pilates on Thursday.
  • No, saving those for the Big Half. I wore my old Frees, but with over 700 miles on them now, that was their swansong and they are officially retired. (Fortunately I have two identical pairs in the cupboard).
    I was considering a recovery run today but had a terrible night's sleep - a combination of post-race syndrome and a fecking mouse scuttling about. Yes, it seems they are back. Argh! So rest day, a bit of yoga and some cleaning. Booked my trains for Manchester though.

    Great run, steven!
    Cal - so if you like your new shoes in the Big Half you'll probably consider them for your marathon.   It's not easy switching race shoes, our trusted shoes become part of our routine race plan.   I know they say never try anything new on a race day but if we didn't we'd never move on.   A bit like the eating pre race, you have to try these things out on race day to see what works.

    Bad news about the mouse/mice back again.

    I don't sleep well post race either , even if I'm really tired I'm restless, usually have a great sleep on the following night though.
  • JugulaJugula ✭✭✭
    Cal, you need a cat or a Jack Russell.
  • Cal - Good result at the half, well done!
    Steven - Great long run!

    As for me plan had a tune up race this weekend, so was going to do Parkrun, but on Friday they were not sure it was going to be on (it's been cancelled a lot recently), so I binned it off on Saturday morning and decided to just do a easy 10 miles instead. I don't think I'm missing anything by not racing a 5k at this point. Did an easy 3 mile recovery on Sunday.

    Watched some of the athletics, Laura Muir absolutely smashed the 3k!!
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Cal, a good result there.  Sounds like you enjoyed it too and as you say it bodes well for the race in two weeks. 

    Shades/Steven, regarding making calculations whilst running.  Last year I had quite a few occasions where I really thought that sub-4 wasn't going to happen as I couldn't figure out the mile splits I needed, and thought I wasn't going to do it.  On one of the races I did 3:52 so quite a bit inside it really, but I remember thinking there was a chance I was going to go over the 4hrs as my brain just couldn't do the simple maths!

    A friend travelled up from Falmouth to see me today, and we went out onto Dartmoor. She's a widow and has a young son (5yo) who has no fear, and scampered up Haytor rock easily.  The weather wasn't ideal as it was very misty, so we just went to a cafe afterwards.

    I'm leading a group at the club tonight and I expect I'll run in and out too.  If I do that it'll be about 11 miles in total.
  • NickW2NickW2 ✭✭✭
    Cal - well done, sounds like the half went much better than you expected :) Interesting that the parkrun the day before seemed to work well for you - a couple of my best 20 mile training runs have come off the back of a parkrun PB the day before. I wonder if maybe it doesn't really take much out of you in terms of a long distance race?
  • mamafoxmamafox ✭✭✭
    Hi Shadies!

    I've been dipping into the thread now and again to see what you're all doing but now I can't remember it all so sorry I can't comment on everyone.

    Just a big well done to Cal for a cracking half after all the injuries you have been suffering. Bodes well for 2018!
    Also Shades I hope your back doesn't turn into anythng more than a passing niggle.
    And thank you Big G for posting a link to that Echo beach song. I love that song and hadn't heard it for ages.. been singing it in my head ever since  :)

    As for me loads of kitchen disaster stories to tell but nothing much to say about running I'm afraid. My stress levels have been through the roof and apart from galloping round the forest for an hour during my break I haven't really done much else. Didn't even do my planned trail race as I just wasn't fit enough for it  :(
    However, it is now the holidays thank GOD and I've finally managed to up my mileage to something resembling decent even though I'm very slow and each run feels like I'm running through treacle. I managed to do my 24k route on Saturday which I used to do every Wednesday as part of my normal routine and it felt like a marathon in itself!
    I've also bought a new pair of shoes (Hokas) as I really needed some new ones but couldn't afford any up until now so hopefully these will ward off any injury issues which I'm extremely paranoid about  :#

    On another note I had my dad on the phone earlier who told me that he'd listened to a radio programme the other day which said that if you smile throughout a marathon it can knock 4 - 6 minutes off your time.

    There you go.. food for thought!
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    edited February 19
    Cal-Well done on a well ran race.
    Steven-Your runs are becoming really strong from what i can see,good consistent pacing.
    Mamafox-Good you are running again but know that treacle feeling well at the minute.
    Shades-The defer or transfer deadline was Jan 31st so those options are out now.
    First double digit run since GC today,pretty happy with completing it except I could feel myself struggling at the end,hard to believe 8 weeks ago I did 20 in 2:48 and it felt very comfortable  :/

    edited February 20
    Steve - Oh I missed the athletics,  :( obviously not on the usual TV due to the Winter Olympics (which is a bit boring at times).   It will be a strange year for watching athletics as the Commonwealth Games are in April this year.   Good to hear Laura Muir is doing well.

    Is your local parkrun being cancelled so often due to the weather conditions?

    Big G - I know, my brain is completely scrambled in a marathon and I'm constantly trying to work out what time I should finish the race.

    mamafox - sorry to hear that you weren't even able to prepare and do your trail race.  

    I hope now the school cook is returning to work next week and your stress level will reduce.  I ran past a primary school last week and as it was a gloomy morning the lights were on in the kitchen and there were huge pots on the cooker and I thought of you, I don't think I could even lift one of those pots when full.   The school should be eternally grateful to you for stepping into that role.

    New Hokas, lovely, which ones did you get.   Are you still using your old Hokas?

    That's a great bit of advice from your Dad, I think we should all smile throughout our next marathon...Big G - you can try that out on Sunday ;) .  There's probably a lot of truth in it, if we smile we relax and think in a positive manner.

    Ian - shame about the transfer deadline, never mind, you may still make that start line yet.

    Great news on a double digit run, was the struggling just a feeling of lack of fitness?   If so don't worry that will return quickly.

    Had a lovely run this morning, sharp cold wind in places but was dressed just right.  Saw my kingfisher on the way home, haven't seen him for a few weeks as I think the water level has been too high.   Today he had a little fish in his beak :)
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Think anyone who can smile all the way through a marathon deserves a few minute knocking off.
    Shades-Yes,mainly fitness felt poor,it was from about mile 9 for the last couple but i was expecting it really,tried to run at the same effort all the way and the last bit came out about 25 sec/mile slower than the first bit.Achilles doesn't feel too bad today,little sore but ok
  • MF - Good to see you back!
    Ian - The fitness will come back soon enough, give it a few weeks and you'll be back to normal.
    Shades - It was on the BBC website or BBC sport app on my TV, so not really available to all. Laura was in 4th for most of the 3000m then with 600m to go shot off at a rapid pace and destroyed the field, think she lapped everyone except those in positions 2-4 in by the finish!!

    Vo2 max session this morning...eeurgh! 9 miles with 2*1200m, 2*1000m and 1*800m!! Reps were 4:31/4:38/3:50/3:57/2:59. Tough and happy with that except the 3:57...slipped a bit on that one.
    Ian - just focus on the achilles for now, you'll soon recover your fitness but being injury free has to be the priority.

    Steve - how annoying, I've been checking the Red Button guide and as they were obviously filming the athletics they could easily have put an hour's highlights on the RB instead of the Winter Olympics which is all replays anyway on RB.

    Tough session for you this morning :'(
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Tough session there Steve. Sorry I've forgotten but are you following P&D?

    Regarding smiling, from the majority of my race pics I am definitely a deep frowner/grimacer rather than a smiler whilst running!

    I ended up doing just over 10 last night, including taking the social group out. It was a nice run out and a good way to get a few extra miles in at an easy pace. 

    This morning I did an easy 4-mile and the right hamstring was a bit sore so hopefully that'll be ok for the weekend. It felt quite cold this morning. 

    Hopefully I'll do a run tomorrow before flying out, and the rest my runs this week will just be short easy runs before Sunday. 
    Big G - hope the hamstring is OK. A bit of warmer weather in Malta should help B) 

    Please can you let me have your March marathons for the list as by the time you come back we'll be nearly into March.   I have a note of the Devon Dumpling which Jelly is doing too, apart from that I think it's just me and you for March events, although I only have 2  ;) 

    Just been testing my Skype ready for a meeting tonight, I don't think we ever get used to our own voice :/
  • Big G - Sort of yes, following P&L which is for the HM and shorter distance plans, but very similar to P&D. Will be back on the normal P&D plans for my marathon.
    Shades - I hate the sound of my voice...always hate it when you get an echo on the line!
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, my March events are:
    - Dorney Lake (Running Miles) - Sunday 4th March.
    - Barcelona Marathon - Sunday 11th March.
    - Devonshire Dumpling (LDWA) - Sunday 25th March.
    - Dinton Challenge (Running Miles) - Wednesday 28th March.

    These are all entered so I'm obviously planning on doing them.  With Malta, it's 5 in around 5 weeks and really I'll be disappointed if I don't get 2 or 3 sub-4s (my one marathon so far this year was just over 4hrs, so I want to rectify that!).  The LDWA one I won't be interested in time at all as there is a large group of us running together - I imagine it will be 5hrs+, but it'll be whatever it ends up being.  I mentioned it on the Trotters group and got a large response, as I think there are in the region of 20 of us run/walking in two groups.

    The Dinton Challenge one I am considering going over the marathon distance for the first time, but it'll really depend on how the legs are after the LDWA event.  Although the LDWA event will be relatively slow, it'll be a challenging event I think (mainly off-road) so I'll decide about what to do at Dinton Challenge much nearer the time.

    For Malta and Barca in particular, I'm not necessarily aiming for a quick time but if I feel good on the day, then I'll push on.
  • I think everyone does, Steve - our voices resonate differenty in our heads so it's a bit of a shock to hear how we sound to everyone else. I'm always horrified by how I walk in videos, too. (Also, well done on getting through that session. It sounds awful!)

    mamafox - good to have you back!

    Big G - you must be getting excited! Glad your runs have been going well.

    Shades, how nice to see your kingfisher. There aren't any (that I know of) on Tooting Common although I'm sure there will be some at the Wetlands Centre in Barnes. I really should pay it a visit one day.

    Interesting run for me today. Great and dizzly with a big of a cold wind in places, but I was full of energy. I expected, so soon after a half, that my legs would take a bit of warming up but they felt pretty bouncy from the get-go. I don't know if it was the box-fresh shoes (new Frees, not the other ones) but the first mile was 10:25 whereas it's usually around 11, or even more if I feel particularly sluggish.

    I had an idea to run six miles or so but ended up doing 10, with an average pace of 10:18. I'd describe this as "steady pace", which falls between easy and MP. Fastest mile was mile 9 at 10:01 and slowest was mile 4 at 10:38 (it was the only mile over 10:30). I took my gloves off at mile 4 and tied my jacket around my waist. I slightly regretted doing the latter as the more open parts of the common were a bit windy, and the wind wasn't exactly warm. Still, I do feel as though we're inching towards spring now, especially as I've seen croci and snowdrops, which always cheers me up. Almost time for daffs and blossom!

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    One of the most useful features on Strava has been removed as users now cannot search for activities on the site.  I was just trying to search for Malta marathon to have a look at the elevation, but that feature is no longer there.  I had a quick google and here is an official response on a forum: We are reviewing features that were originally designed for athlete motivation and inspiration to ensure they cannot be compromised by people with bad intent. Read this letter to the Strava community

    Annoying, but an image of the elevation is one the Malta marathon site although it's not great quality.  But overall, the elevation is down hill :)  
  • NickW2NickW2 ✭✭✭
    Big G, that's a shame, I used to use that Strava feature for race prep. Having said that though, it did seem to run very slowly so probably wasn't very well implemented.

    Cal - nice 10 miler. It sounds like you are in pretty good shape and if these injuries would bugger off then you could have a good crack at some races.

    Shades - I know what you mean, I hate the sound of my own voice.

    Steve - nice reps. At least they were all the right length this time!

    MF - good to see you on here. Hope things are calming down a bit and you've managed to get away from the kitchen.

    Re smiling, I'm sure it's an often repeated adage that it uses fewer muscles to smile than to frown - I've no idea whether that's true, but I can certainly believe that having a more positive outlook leads you to perform better.

    I've not run since last Wednesday, thought about going out at lunch yesterday or today but very busy at work so not really been taking full lunch breaks (I do a lot of computer modelling, so I'm often setting a model running for 10 mins or so and taking lots of short breaks rather than a full hour in one go). My wife reminded me last night that the half marathon I'd planned on doing is this Sunday - in my head I had another week. Probably not running tomorrow so will try and get out at some point this week. Possibly give parkrun a go on Saturday at target race pace, which I think will be 7 min miling.
  • I always start my events of with big smiles it's just a shame it doesn't last long.

    Steve- that sounds like a tough session there rather you than me.

    Just a 4 mile tempo run today not much time to run anything more due to other commitments today.
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