Shades Marathon Training

Big_G

Thanks Shades, after I posted I was thinking similar.  It was those higher mileage weeks (probably helped by not drinking) that helped make the improvement I saw.  I think after DD I'll need to try and do a MWLR (say 10-miles) even if I've got marathons on each weekend to keep the mileage up, and not worry about pace on those at all.  I.E. if I'm tired on those MWLRs and I'm at around 10:30s for example, don't worry about it, and just see it as extra mileage; this will hopefully be much easier to do when the weather is decent!  I've just looked back at those higher mileage weeks I did and they only contained one session with any miles at Half pace, one 12x45-sec session, plus I did race Humdinger Half.  Everything else was around 10s.  I need to stick to that I think as you're right when I do more intensive speed work I do get injured.  On occasion I may do a club speed session if I fancy it (I do really enjoy those 1K or 1M intervals), but I'll not make it a regular thing.  Basically, I need to keep doing what I'm doing but try a bit harder in the week between marathons to up the mileage a bit.  There is that 5K summer race series too, but that's only one race a month so I'm sure I can fit those in if I want to.  One thing I know I could do with doing is finding a decent Half to do although I'm currently not sure how I will fit that in, but I'll have a look around and maybe plan it in.

And you're right about the brain training!  I really mustn't get myself all wound up about this 3:15 target as I know that just works against me.  I know this from how long it took me to go under 4hrs!!!

Good news you seem to have recovered from your niggle.  Beautiful morning here, but there was ice on the windscreen earlier. 

As for me, I think I probably could run today but ribs are still a bit painful in certain cases, so I'm going to leave it for another day or two at least.  I will go for a longish walk today though, so I'm looking forward to that.

1SteveMac

Big G - Nothing to add really other than agree with Shades, no point doing speed work if you will just get injured. You can always use parkruns as a speed/tempo session if you wanted some faster running. You could add in some miles at MP to get used to how that feels during training. The MWLR is a good idea, they are a key component in the P&D plans.
It just shows what progress you have made as it doesn't seem long ago that you were trying for sub 4, now you are trying for sub 3:15!!
Ian - It could be close then for your wife's HM time and yours!!
Cal - Agree with the others run your own race, you will know better than anyone what the best pace is for you on the day.

8 miles today, felt colder again, but looking like it's going to be warm for the HM. GF is struggling with a bug the last couple of days, hoping it clears up before Sunday as I know she will PB if fit and ready as she has done everything right in training.

Big_G

Steve, yeah, it is interesting looking back as the first time I went under 4hrs was March last year, but then I started knocking out sub-4s fairly regularly as I've done 14 of them now.  It was a mental barrier for sure, as my fitness wasn't vastly different really.  If (and it's not guaranteed of course) I do go under 3:15 that will be a full 2hrs quicker than when I did London as my first marathon in 2010, when I basically didn't have a clue what I was doing.  If I do that, I think that will be quite a milestone really, as 2hrs quicker is obviously significant (that's over 4.5 minutes a mile quicker over the marathon).  I do look back to when I did my first Half in 2007, which I did in around 1:55 - I got to the end and said to Claire "How on earth do people do a full marathon!?".  If you'd told me then that I'd later do 20 marathons in one year I would honestly have thought you were crazy.  It is interesting looking back - it's a different life now than what it was then, in many ways!

Cal Jones

That's a massive improvement, Big G. Maybe you can give me some tips on getting under 4. Run a lot, I guess!

Beautiful day today - sunny, cool, perfect. Did 4 miles and felt decent. Middle two miles were around MP. Now I'm going to treat myself to an Epsom Salt bath and a hot cross bun.

Big_G

Cal, I think the only tip I'd say is to slow down the majority of your running.  Most of my training was at 9:30-10s for my 3:19 PB.  Please do not take this the wrong way as it's just an observation, but often you say about your training runs and they are at MP (or close to it), or you went out to do an easy run but felt good so ran bits of it close to MP.  I think that if you reduce your training pace, that will enable you to maybe do a few more miles a week, potentially help with injuries, and help with your times.  I know people say they can't run that slowly, but they can (I've heard this many times at my club).  9:30s for me feels very easy (MP from my PB is now 7:36), but it helped me build the weekly mileage and endurance.

It depends on what you want out of your running really as I know there's lots more to running than just marathons, but if a big goal is to reduce your marathon time I think slowing down in training generally will help.  Also, in my opinion, running slower in training doesn't just help with marathons, as it will also help your half time too.

So yes, "run a lot" is correct, but I'd amend it to "run a lot, at an easy pace".  I'll never forget something I read on here a few years ago - "a lot of people run their slow runs too quickly, and their quick runs too slowly".  I've remembered this as it really does ring true.

All that wasn't meaning to have a pick over your training, but as you asked for tips I thought I'd let you know what I thought  

1SteveMac

Big G - Wow, 2 hours is an awesome achievement! I had something similar after my first HM in 2014. Was in the pub hydrating afterwards and was asked by a friend from work if I would ever do a marathon, said I couldn't imagine running double that distance and to think I'm now training for my 5th ultra!
Cal - Remind me what your 10k and HM PB's are? What sort of mileage are you running during training?

Cal Jones

Big G - noted. I tend to run a lot by feel. It's served me well enough but I know I need to get a lot more serious if I want to run a GFA.

Steve - My highest mileage this time was 42 (I did two other weeks at 41). But I did have a somewhat truncated cycle due to my Autumn of injury. I had to build up almost from scratch. If I can get through Manchester and Liverpool unscathed then I'll have a the summer to build up properly for Chester (I'm not expecting to run sub-4 there...but 4:15 would be excellent).

HM PB is 1:57.01 (Feb '17) and 10K is 53:35 (October '16). Second half of last year was pretty crap. But I've run another sub-2 half this year and I took 31 seconds off my 5K PB in the last couple of weeks so I seem to be coming good again.

Big_G

Cal, I think for me, the thing is MP, or maybe MP+30secs, can feel quite easy - but it's obviously only easy for a short run.  It does take some practice running at an easy pace and sometimes I do have to reign myself in, but for me I'm convinced it's the easy running (and increased mileage that came about because of it) that knocked a chunk of time off.  Not long before my PB I ran for 9 days in a row, including four days in a row of 10-12 mile runs at an easy pace and I felt absolutely fine.  I just know I wouldn't have been able to do that mileage if the runs had been anywhere near MP, as I'd have been too tired or possibly injured.

Big_G

Just this seen this about a planned DLR strike on the London Marathon weekend, but hopefully it'll get resolved.  It'll be an issue getting to Excel otherwise!
https://www.runnersworld.co.uk/news/dlr-tube-strike-london-marathon-weekend

SHADES

Big G - the most important rule is not to increase mileage and increase speedwork in the same week.   So easy running on high mileage weeks and save the speedwork for the lower mileage weeks.  I think you have your training well planned for post DD, a 10 mile MWLR is a good idea.

14 sub 4's...wow 

Before I forget if you fancy fish and chips in Llanelli I thought the High Tide Fish & Chip Shop was really good.  They have a car park and indoor and outdoor seating if you don't want a take away.

Steve - I think it will (should) feel quite warm this weekend compared to what we've had lately.   I do hope your GF is feeling 100% by then so she can have a good race.   Which half are you doing?

Cal - it will be interesting to see how you do training for an autumn marathon.  I personally find it much easier to get out and get the mileage in, especially the long runs, in the warmer weather.   There is a massive advantage too to training in warm weather and then your race day should be cooler and fresher, it's like finding another gear on race day.    Runners often have to try and find alternative methods of training either due to repeated injuries or when they stop improving on the method that they use.


I walked down to Pilates, 0.9 of a mile, and my ankle was really sore.   Had a great Pilates class, hard work on our abs  and then my ankle didn't hurt at all on the walk home, but I think I'll strap it later today and keep it strapped for a few days.

1SteveMac

Shades - Doing Solihull HM, it's local and only in it's 2nd year (I think), so not a massive field, but easy to travel to! Hope the ankle recovers in time for your next race.

Cal - From your times, I think with a good training block behind you, that you could get really close to a sub 4, I think you'd probably want to go sub 1:55 over a HM for it to be a reality. I'd agree with Big G on the paces, slow it right down on the long runs. My long runs are currently coming out to MP+45s, based on my current MP (7:15 min/miles), but todays run was around 8:50s and recovery runs are 9:00+. I think if you slow the long runs down, but include a few miles each week at say HMP, that should enable you to run more 40+ mile weeks.

1SteveMac

Not that I'm planning 2019 races already.....but has anyone run Edinburgh marathon or HM? Would you recommend it?

Big_G

Steve, not done it but my SiL got her PB and GFA on that course, although I'm not sure if the organisation has been up to scratch in recent years.  They were the ones who once didn't publish race results due to something about a privacy policy, but later relented.  Also, I think they ran out of water one year, when it was very hot.  Probably they've sorted all that out though.  I think a Shadie did it in the last few years - was it Iain?

Nothing wrong with planning 2019's events  

Cal Jones

Thanks for the advice, peeps.

Big G - One thing to note is that the Emirates Airline (cablecar) ends right at Excel. I used it to get home from the Royal Victoria docks parkrun. To get there, travel by tube to North Greenwich (Jubilee Line) and then walk past the O2 to the cablecar station. The cablecar is very visible so although it's a couple of minutes walk, you won't have trouble finding it. (You could do the parkrun while you're there, if you want a warm-up for the marathon).

Steve - not done Edinburgh but I've heard from other people that's it's OK, nothing special. It doesn't go through the town centre and a lot of the course isn't that interesting. It also ends somewhere that's a bit of a pain to get back from, so take that into account.
Liverpool's around the same time and that's a very fun, well organised race with nice shirt/medals and a good buzz to it. Looking forward to seeing what Big G thinks of it this year.

steven renton

Steve- I ran Edinburgh marathon 2 years ago and overall I enjoyed it. The first half of the race is from Edinburgh running past the Scottish parliament and the Queens residence Holywood house and the bottom of Arthur seat heading east along the coast into Musselburgh which is well supported with a good crowd. You then leave Musselburgh heading east along the coast road for about 5/6 miles which when I ran it was into a slight wind coming in from the sea there is virtually no support at this part due to it being a coast road and no opportunity for any crowd support to gather. You run for another mile or saw around Gosforth House which is a private estate and very beautiful before heading back along the coast road back towards Musselburgh. Again for a couple of those miles is with no crowd support which I found tough going basically running miles 15 to 22 with no crowd support. That being said the final 3 miles takes you back into Musselburghfor the finish and the crowd noise/support is superb. As I said I enjoyed the race I am biased to be fair as I was born and bred out by the Musselburgh area which for me I felt like I was running home which I did find myself getting emotional about. I would always recommend people to run it at least once as I feel it is beautiful scenery running along the coast in what always at the time of the marathon nice weather. It has on occasion had temperatures approaching 18/19 degrees which caused a lot of runners to suffer. I would say as a negative is the lack of crowd at what can be some tough miles and I would prefer as it's the Edinburgh marathon for more of the race to be in Edinburgh as it's a great city with some much areas of interest that would be good to run around. It is a marathon that has the potential for people to get a pb at.

I have also ran the h/m which like the full marathon is a fast course mostly downhill for the entire race  you run the exact same course as the full finishing in Musselburgh.

Big_G

Thanks Cal, I've shared your advice with my club.  Yeah, I'm really looking forward to Liverpool and I'll be sure to report back here on how it goes.

SHADES

Steve - good that it's a local race for you this weekend.

I've never done Edinburgh (Iain Love has), they have a history of monumental cock ups over the years and just when I think they've got the hang of organising a race they screw up again.   One year they ran out of water and stopped the race so anyone over 4 hours wasn't allowed to finish.   I believe the course, for Edinburgh, is very dull and finishes about 10 miles outside of the city at Musselburgh racecourse and good luck with transport back.  I know several runners that had bus tickets to get back but no bus at the time and ended up paying a lot for a shared cab back into the city.

My friend entered Edinburgh and he is a 2:40 marathon runner and as he was Irish they considered him an overseas runner and put him back in the 4 hours+ start pen.  When he complained they agreed to move him up to the front of the race but they asked him for another £40, he paid it and he finished in 27th place in 2:48.

I've heard much better reports about Stirling, which steven is doing.   I think that starts in a safari park/zoo  

SHADES

Nice 5 mile run this morning, will rest now as marathon on Sunday.   Only remembered about strapping my ankle as I was going out the door this morning so didn't bother strapping it and it was fine, probably 0.5/10, might still strap it for Sunday as we are running on rural roads and not closed to traffic there will be a camber to deal with.

I think I was just offered a job but I'm so work shy these days I completely ignored it.   The guy from our flats management said 'we've lost our cleaner'.   She only comes once a month and hoovers the communal halls/stairs.   My reply was 'Oh no, what a shame,is that your cat, she's lovely'.   I think I'm unemployable now   

Cal Jones

Ha ha Shades, sounds like me. Not working is infinitely preferable to working. However, being a landlord is not reliable. I don't make that much from it and when tenants change, which is the case now, I can go a couple of months without getting any money in. Not ideal.

Big_G

Cal/Shades, similar to me - I prefer not working too!  I did say to Shades when we met for a coffee that I suppose longer term I'd like to find something I'd enjoy, so it didn't feel like work as such!  Cal, do you have an agent to look after your property or do you do it yourself?

I went for quite a long walk yesterday and ribs were okay, and also I slept really well and woke up on my left side and it wasn't painful, so I went out for a short, slow run this morning.  I did 3.5 miles and the ribs felt okay, if not 100%.  Probably 2/10 in terms of pain, so it was definitely manageable. It was a slow run so I wasn't breathing heavily, but it didn't hurt to breathe in at that pace which is good news.  I'll see how I am tomorrow but if I'm okay I hope to do a parkrun tomorrow, at a slow pace.

SHADES

Cal - hope your new tenants are installed quickly and pay the rent on time.

Big G - that's good news on the ribs, you're on the mend.


I haven't got time to work.... the athletics at the Commonwealth Games starts on Sunday.   
The marathons are on the 14th April. 

Jelly

One the Trotters is looking for evidence of past marathons, he’s going to te library to loon at old news papers. Anyone know the Date of English Riviera Marathon Torquay 1993  

SHADES

Jelly - that's before I started doing marathons.  I ran the Riviera in 1996 and the race was in October then.  Why not email the Torquay clubs, it was either Torquay AC or South Devon that organised the race.

How's your injury?

Jelly

He’s got it 

Big_G

Shades, yeah I'm a bit happier now.  I felt fat and ploddy, but that's standard after a lay off - I haven't ran at all for 8 days.  I don't regret getting rid of my Taunton place as it's still not right, so hopefully it'll be better again in time for Great Welsh.

Cal Jones

I use an agent, Big G.

Cal Jones

Quick question - do you think it would be a good idea to wear a fresh pair of shoes? (Nike Frees don't need breaking in - they're very comfy). My current pair has 133 miles on them so they've got a lot of life in them yet but wondering if it might be an idea to have a box fresh pair for the marathon.

Big_G

Hi Cal, I've done it before and had no issues, although I'm not sure if it's the recommended advice as really we shouldn't try anything new on race day.  In my case, I have a model of Asics that I use just for marathons and I know they fit fine and don't need any breaking in at all, similar to you and your Frees.  If you decide to do it, maybe double check you're happy with the lace tightness before race day.  I can't say wearing a new pair especially impacted my race in a positive (or negative) way though....

1SteveMac

Thanks for the feedback on Edinburgh. It appeals as GF wants to visit and it has a load of races over the weekend, so something for both of us. Will have a think!

Rest day today and then an easy 6 miles tomorrow. Good luck to those racing this weekend (Cal, Shades, anyone else I've forgotton!).

steven renton

Shades- How dare someone try and offer you a job. My o/h doesn't work due to medical grounds and she loves the free time she now has. It's always the smile on her face every time I leave for work that gets to me ? 

Finally got a run outdoors today,