Shades Marathon Training

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  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, I'm pretty sure Chairman got his again being about 3.5mins inside it with a 3:11.  He's doing quite a few events again now and I think he's gone quicker than that at a recent event so he should be fine anyway.  Did you see his 18yo son did something like 3:20 at Taunton for his first full marathon?  He has a goal that he wants to do 20 consecutive Londons so that's his motivation to keep banging out the times - he's got a couple more to go I think.

    Ian, what about breaking it down a bit and say to yourself "right, I'm getting to half way bang on 1:34:30 and no quicker" and then take it from there, just depending on how you feel?  Try not to put pressure on yourself though, and try and enjoy it.  I was looking at the splits of a few of the faster guys from London and they were absolutely metronomic - very, very consistent over the whole race.

    Shoulder is the same as it was yesterday, which is good but a shame there's no dramatic improvement overnight again ;)  At the discovery that I could actually tie my own shoe laces now (whooo hoo!) I did go out for a short walk around town yesterday as I've hardly stepped foot outside for 2 weeks.  It was a bit painful when I got back, but it's still okay today so that's good.  I just felt that a short walk would do me good, and I think I'll do the same today....maybe I'll even go for a coffee and cake somewhere :)  
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Steve-Think it ranged from 2:555 to 3:05  :cold_sweat:
    Big G-Yeah I'm not putting the pressure on,I want a nice race,hence aiming as close to 3:10 as i think i can get away with.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    There's a bit of chat on the sub-3 group about pacers.  Not sure what start it was but there was apparently a group of 3:15 runners who were held back for 5-mins for some reason, and then they had to fight their way through the crowds once they started.  Not sure what I'd do in that instance if I was a pacer.  One of the pacers who was held back apparently did a significant negative split to get under the time, but probably finished with no one in his bus, as he upped the pace to weave around the crowds.

    Here's the Stava for one of the 3hr pacers who squeezed in by 5 secs, with what looks like a sprint finish up The Mall!  https://www.strava.com/activities/2325475761

    That must be a really tough job as a pacer with the crowds, GPS being out, etc.  But I still think I'd prefer to run on my own.  At York when I started behind the 4hr pacer the bus was packed and not enjoyable at all.  I'd imagine London is even worse.  It reminds me of one particularly low moment at Barca.  I went out for 3:15 but blew up, and when the 3:15 bus swept past me that was horrible.  I was trying to stay out the way, but I was getting bumped from all sides.  They went past, and I breathed again, and then a bit later the 3:30 bus was on my tail.  I can smile about it now but at the time - "Urrrgh!!".  It's still my favourite European race though. :)   
  • Shades, I don't think Lucozade have ever sold the sport drink in 330s they must have had these just for the marathon.

    Big G does look like a bit of a sprint for the 3hr pacer.  Pacing is a skill, however it's not rocket science, you should be able to work your splits out mentally or wear a wrist band, any reasonable runner (and I'm assuming a 3hr pacer is) would know that GPS isn't accurate and should only be used as a guide.  

    I've only used a pacer once, that was 2 years ago at MK I followed the 1.50 half pacer for the 1st 7 miles before we broke away.  For a half I'm too far ahead of a 1.45 pacer and too far behind a 1.30 pacer.  For the marathon my PB (until last year) was 3.44 so would be running inside the 3.45 pacer and nowhere near the 3.30.  I hope my next PB attempt marathon will be just inside 3.30 so may experience it them.

    Seems to have been taken down off facebook now, but the 7.30 pacer that I spoke to on Sunday has spoken of her disgust of the event, their start was delayed by 15 mins which mate the cut offs tougher, how the timing mats around the course has been taken up, no water or lucosade for them, they were told by sweep vehicle to guarantee a finish time they'd need to up the pace to 7hrs as they were closing the finish earlier (6.40pm instead of 7pm).  The finish had been dismantled by the time they had got there.  They did receive their time and medal but no photos at the finish.  Had I known I would have gone to the finish to cheer and congratulate them all.

    Was just about to go for a last run before injection on Thurs, went to pick my watch up off charge grrrr hadnt switch on! 
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    When I did Manchester last year I decided to sit on the 4:15 bus as long as I could and see where that got me (ended up at 4:18 after dropping off a bit, but a huge PB at the time). I did find it a bit annoying trying to avoid treading on heels all the time. So in Chester I went past the 4:15 guys around mile 6 or 7 and it was the best decision for me, as I did my PB of 4:10:42.
    Pacers are definitely useful, but sometimes you just have to do your own thing.
    London would be tough due to Canary Wharf mucking things up - I imagine it does the same thing in the marathon as the Big Half.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Cal - much cooler weather down here, 13-14 degrees max.   Hope it's not too hot for your trail race, I expect the ground will be dry for you, very dry down here and off road surfaces are quite hard as a result.

    Ian - just checked the forecast for you too and looks perfect for your race for you.  that at least leaves one less thing to worry/ponder over.   We had a RW thread going last year on Newport marathon, not a lot of info but one of the runners T-Rex lives locally and was able to advise on the course, I'm assuming the course is the same as last year.  Might be worth looking at the thread. 

    Entirely up to you what pace you go out on, for me I would put your half time in a calculator and go out at that pace.   You have to do what suits you.  But I think it's a tough ask to rely on a negative split, especially when that takes you to halfway considerably slower than your HM PB.

    Ian5 said:
    Steve-Think it ranged from 2:555 to 3:05  :cold_sweat: 
    Ha, ha, the one I used said 2:48 which is why I didn't print it on here :o


    Steve - actually I think that elevation on my run today is exaggerated, that's what mapometer measured it but it's like Strava and overstates elevation.  I forgot to deduct for that, about 15% I think, so should have been about 627 feet, it was hilly though.

    Big G - yes but for Chair 3:11 is a comfortable run, he is a sub 3 marathon runner and not that long ago.  He paced his son around at Taunton.

    That's a good idea re Ian's targeting pace, setting a time for half way.  I sometimes break down my targets into 5 mile chunks and it will often keep me going just when I'm thinking I might ease up a bit.

    Great that you are now managing to get out of the house...and tie your own shoelaces, it's the little things that matter. 

    I never use the pacers, I always want to run my own race and I run better alone, not with a dictated pace.  If I used a pacer I'd then have to go and run that time on my own to show that I can do it.  Often those that run with pacers are mentally weak in races and unable to manage to do it on their own especially if they run the whole race with a pacer.

    Robert - shame about the 7:30 pacer having to push on, especially when they were told they'd have 7:30 to finish in.

    Enjoy what I hope will be your last run with PF 


    Quite tough Pilates class but most enjoyable.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Robert - you're right pacing is a real skill.   Pacers are very popular at the Irish races but I'm always amazed that even at Connemara they have pacers as with the significant hills they have to calculate the pace to allow for the slower pace on the hills.   I noticed when I was on the last 13 miles of my race, which was the 2nd half of the marathon some of the pacing signs had been discarded but I think they couldn't hold up the signs in the strong wind.

    Here a pic of happy pacers from this year's race


  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades-Thanks I'll have a look at that.
    Haha at the 2:48.... it's funny as they say its based on ideal training for the distance but theres no way I do ideal training for 5k,so if anything that should be worse than it is.
  • Shades thats a fantastic pic, almost makes me want to sign up.  The 7.30 pacer stuck to her guns and finished in 7.28 she gave every official a mouthful how she's the official pacer and on target, how these guys had spend months training and raising money and should be given a fair crack at the whip.

    Cal GPS struggles not just the tall buildings at canary wharf but also the tunnels at around 15 miles and 23 miles.  

    9 miles today 1st time I've ran at 9 min miles and anything further than parkrun for a few months.  Was tough towards the end.  As Shades said hope its my last with PF, I can feel the improvement and hope being able to run and stretch/ strengthen without any pain will see it off for good.   

  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Ian - one day you may well be looking at 2:48 but I just thought it was a bit of jump (for now).

    Robert - that's great that you had a really positive run.

    That is a great photo, that's why I posted it.  But all the photos of Connemara races have the happiest runners I've ever seen, especially considering the weather some years.
    If you are considering it there is usually an early bird price, don't think that's happened yet.  Elle could always walk the half or even the full as they take entries for walkers.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Turns out YT's London time gives him the fastest U23 time in Britain this year.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big G - that's good for YT, but it's very early in the year and not that many U23's run marathons.  But I think he'll hold the number one spot for quite a while, maybe all year. 
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades-Had a read of that thread,just looks like the parking was an issue last year,but I'm staying not too far from the start so won't directly impact me unless it's a late start.
    Big G-He would have ended last year as 2nd fastest,but up to now there's only 25 on power of 10.
    It made me look at rankings for this year and last year at this time.I'm currently 458th in my AG.At this time last year I would have been 234th and ended the year in 487th so it looks like a lot more are faster this year than last.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Ian - last year was the first time for this event so they should have sorted any delays re parking this year. I'll be interested to hear your feedback as I'd like to do it next year.

    Re rankings, you're in a very competitive age group for marathon running. And the age group below you too and some of them will this year have moved up into your category. 
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    I read that 7:30 pacer's post on Facebook. Clearly unsatisfactory. Either they should accomodate all groups fully, or decrease the time limit.

    Anyway, an easy 4 this morning to get my legs ready for this evening. First evening race of the year for me - hopefully my legs won't be too bad. The hill run on Sunday made them pretty sore and fatigued.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Cal, I wonder if the fact that the start seems to have been delayed for those towards the back caused a logistics issue around when the road had to be cleared - but yes, clearly unacceptable.  That pacer was inside her pace so she did nothing wrong at all, and I read somewhere there's an 8hr cut off anyway.  Does anyone know if it's an 8hr cut off based on gun time?  If so, it was basically under a 7hr cut off as some didn't cross the start line for over an hour.

    Ian/Shades, does anyone know what percentage of U23s go on to progress up well into the seniors?  I wonder if there's a drop off when work/life (or dare I say, injuries) starts to take over a bit.  That is one thing I think YT's parents are a bit concerned about - he's literally got no fall back option as far as I'm aware.  He's not studying, doesn't work - running is his life and although they encourage/support him all they can, I suppose there's that lingering question about what happens if he doesn't make it.  Just thinking out loud, but when you think of someone like Callum Hawkins compared with YT, he's a long way behind but that's the level he wants to get to.  Obviously at 21 he can improve loads yet and it'll be interesting seeing what he does.  I suppose what he needs is funding/sponsorship.  They've bought him a great gift though - a photo of Kipchoge crossing the line at London one year, arms aloft, signed by the man himself.  

    I went for a short walk into town yesterday - just 2 miles total.  Shoulder was a bit sore when I got home so I've a long way to go yet before I'm back running.  Physio today so I'll see what she has to say.  I'm hoping she'll be able to do a bit more of an assessment than she could two weeks ago, but we'll see.

    I've made good use of my time though, I'm sure you'll all agree ;)  Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul watched from start to finish, along with a few movies on Netflix.  I expect I'll be starting on Stranger Things today.  The target is if I can get to watch everything I want, I'll cancel it before the month's up and won't have paid anything :)  I have seen all of Breaking Bad before about 4 years ago but I loved it so watched it again.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2019
    Cal - yes, I've read the pacer's report too and good for her being so feisty and publicising her follow up report too.   Hopefully next year they'll be treated with respect and given time to finish in their allotted time.

    I think it's harder mentally to get ready for an evening race for us morning runners.   I've got a couple of evening races coming up but not until July.


    Robert - Early bird entries are open for Connemara 2020,  €10 all entries until end of May.   Just in case you're interested.

    http://www.connemarathon.com/enter-now/?fbclid=IwAR3mpRNVqiQFpvsbVZrSnYOaexF57uO6apNuSd5ynAt1d0ffIsK52bBPOwQ

    Big G - no idea re progression of U23's.   With youngsters some give up due to other interests or switch to other sports.   Generally though they don't start running marathons at such a young age as there's a danger that will limit their running career.  Callum has taken quite a while to get to the level he's at now, it takes years.
    What a great present for YT, I bet that picture is on his bedroom wall. 

    Re London, the waves have only been introduced in the last 2 years and didn't they have more waves this year, so maybe someone overlooked the issue of times for the clean up team to come through, allowing the pacers the extra time they needed.

    Hope the physio appointment goes well.   Good to know you've been busy, I think Tour of Yorkshire is on this weekend if you've got time to watch that ;) 


    Circuits was good today.   
    One of the regulars had a mini stroke last week in her Army Circuits class, luckily the instructor and those around her recognised immediately what was wrong with her and she was in hospital pronto and at Stroke Clinic in the afternoon.   She can't drive for 4 weeks but she was back in Circuits class this morning, amazing.

    One calendar month today we'll be 30ish minutes into DD race :) 



  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Haven't heard from Steven so I've assumed he didn't do Stirling on Sunday


  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    SHADES said:
    Good to know you've been busy, I think Tour of Yorkshire is on this weekend if you've got time to watch that ;) 


    I may try and fit it into my busy schedule.  There's snooker to watch too, so hopefully I won't pick up another snooker-related injury :) 
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big_G said:
    SHADES said:
    Good to know you've been busy, I think Tour of Yorkshire is on this weekend if you've got time to watch that ;) 


    I may try and fit it into my busy schedule.  There's snooker to watch too, so hopefully I won't pick up another snooker-related injury :) 
    Actually I see the Tour of Yorkshire starts tomorrow so you'd better rejig that schedule :D   Think it's on ITV4 
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Big G-No idea but I cant imagine it's a great % who make a living out of it.Thats what happens with a lot of the youngsters in my club,quite a few of them are near the top in the UK over short distances,then they move to uni,other priorities take place and they slip,hence our senior team isn't as good.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited May 2019
    I had physio today and she was pleased with the progress, as am I.  When I went two weeks ago she couldn't do much but today she was able to do a fuller assessment (had me pushing against her in various ways, to test the strength).  I tried to explain that the pain is different now, in that it feels more like a "dead arm" as opposed to really bad, stabbing pain.  From that she really doesn't think it's a full tear, which is good news, so she is fairly sure it's a badly damaged rotator cuff.  It's what I thought it was right at the start, but it obviously got far worse than when I've had it before.  I have an x-ray next week that she wants me to keep, and then I have to go back to her in two weeks.  She's given me different exercises to do - kind of the same as what I was doing but pushing it a bit further and increasing the strength, so hopefully I'll see further improvements.

    She reckons it can be 3-4 months before it's back to normal.  I asked about running and she said what I already knew really in that it's literally pointless running before I can walk - I need to come back from a walk pain free, before even considering a run, and even at that point only build up really slowly.  Common sense really and it was exactly what I was expecting to hear, but I had to ask!  

    I was starting to feel a bit more hopeful about plodding around Windermere (I didn't tell her this....) but I'm not so sure now.  I'll just play it by ear.

    Anyway, I was pleased that she doesn't think it's completely torn.  That is what I was initially worried about, although I didn't know how/when I could have torn it!  Overall I think it was a positive session, although hearing 3-4 months was a bit sobering.  I am not taking that as it'll be 3-4 months before I can run again though.  Maybe it'll be another month or so from a running point of view, but again I'll just play it by ear.  I just mustn't do anything stupid!
  • Big G, least your thoughts have been confirmed by medical staff, glad its not torn, just a long wait and need to patient.

    More unwelcomed publicity is IAAF upholding female regulation requirement https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/48102479   It doesn't sit well with me, for Caster to defend her title she needs to take drugs/ medical intervention.  She is a female, born, lived, trained as a female, just unfortunate to naturally have a high level of testosterone and is now being punish.

    It annoys me when a big problem/debate is trans (men to women) in sport.  May seem controversial but I see their advantage similar to drug takers but not ethically the same (well I hope that's the case).  They have had the benefit of training under the drugs/ as a man and that has probably been in their favour.  As for drug cheats there is no place for them in our sport.  It's very harsh to stop trans from competing but where do you draw the line, elite/club champ/ gfa/ prizes for competitions? a lot of it comes down to mental health and if they truly feel they have been born in the wrong body and if they are post op, how is it right to exclude them. Look forward to seeing this one unfold over the next few years.

    Made it to the gym for a session of x trainer, few exercises on the mat.  Nervous about the injection tomorrow partly as my foot is feeling better and do I need the injection, also I'm not convinced that the pain will be gone and will be a waste of time trying.


         

  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Big G, glad you have improved. It can be a slow road back from a shoulder injury like that so it's good you've made significant progress in a week.
    Rob - good luck with that injection.
    Shades - scary about the person with the mini-stroke. Yikes!

    The trail race on Wimbledon Common was part fun, part horrible. I've done a half marathon there in 2015 and am well acquainted with a lot of the trails, but the course today covered some really tricky ground. The second mile was like a rollercoaster with steep, stony ups and downs known as the Alps, neither of which I could run with any skill. Mile 3 was on a trail I've run plenty of times that goes alongside a stream, but today the mud had dried into hard, lumpy ground and I managed to roll both ankles, one after the other. (Fortunately not badly, but I did swear a bit).
    The fourth mile has a very thin, uphill path known as the toast rack. It's not steep but it goes on and on, and it's on loose, sandy gravel and my calves filled with lactic and there was nothing I could do to maintain my previous pace. Fortunately the last mile was on much harder, flatter trail and I was able to recover. I don't know what my official time will be but my Garmin made it 44:26 which  I am fairly happy with. I've not done a 5 mile race before and certainly not on that kind of ground, so I can't really compare it to the fast, flat 10Ks I've done - it's more like a longer, nastier parkrun.
    Being a low key, clubby race there were no medals apart from the top 3 and age group winners but we all got a mug and a choccy bar (I got a Snickers).
    I signed up for all three in the series - the second is soon after Liverpool so not sure I'll be good for that one, and the last one is a longer one of 8 miles (gulp!)
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big G - well that was a good and positive physio appointment.    You'll know when you can run again and I'm sure it won't be 3-4 months, I wouldn't be surprised if you're able to run in a few days.   You'll get to a stage when walking is pain free and running will soon follow. 
    But shoulder injuries take ages to heal so 3-4 months would be about right.

    Robert - I don't know what to think about the Caster ruling. It must be an awful situation for her to be in.

    Yes, I guess the transgender issue in sport will soon be big news. I know UKA have issued a ruling encouraging race organisers to offer a 3rd gender option of non binary for race entries, think I've only see it on one race entry, can't remember which one.

    I'm guessing you're not keen on injections :/  But it's your body so your decision and your choice.  If it was me I would have it done.

    Cal - well done on your trail race.   I know what you mean about part fun/part horrible.   I hate off road and everyone assumes it's the mud, but it's not it's what you had to run on that I dislike and find difficult, hard dry rutted.  Hope the ankles are OK today.

    6 easy miles for me today, aching today from a combination of Tuesday's Pilates and yesterday's circuits.  Chilly morning again, 5 degrees but the sun came out and it started to warm up.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Well done Cal - sounds like a good club race.  Personally I like something that isn’t a medal at those types of races and a mug is good. I wonder if it’ll be different for each race of the series?   I don’t like ‘racing’ on off-road but I do quite enjoy shorter trail races. I’m particular crap on downhills. I do think they build strength and make us stronger road runners though (if we can avoid injuring ourselves!)?  I just do my best at them and know I’m not going to be setting the world alight. Having said that, I did a (flat) trail marathon last year which I’ve promised myself I’ll never do again unless I’m absolutely desperate for numbers. It was flat, but in the summer part of the lapped course I found very hard going. Horrible and I walked 3 whole laps out of 8 - it was either that or a potential DNF.  Bearing in mind I wasn’t injured, strongly considering a DNF shows how much I hated it but I needed to finish it as it was in the run up to my 50th. It’s a shame as it’s local to me as well.

    Robert, good luck with the injection if you go for it. I’m also not sure what I think about the Caster case really, but I do feel for her. Artificially creating a ‘level playing field’ doesn’t feel right, although on the other hand I can see where the authorities are coming from. It’s a tough one.

    Shades, fingers crossed you’re right. It’s a bit tender this morning probably from the new exercises. One of them she wants me to do is laying flat on the bed on my back, clasp my hands together and bring them back over my head. That one I need to be careful with at the moment. I’m guessing that if there’s further improvement next time I see her, she’ll give me some exercises to do with a band.

    I went into to Sainsbury’s for some milk and they had some of those Gu puds on offer so I accidentally picked up 3 packs of two. Yum, but I purposefully haven’t looked at the calories!
  • 1SteveMac1SteveMac ✭✭✭
    Big G - Good to have your thoughts confirmed.
    Cal - Well done on the trail race.
    10 miles with 2 sets of 2*1.2km and 1*0.8km, paces were 4:31/4:22/2:56 (1200/1200/800) and 4:28/4:31/2:55 (1200/1200/800). Consistent enough, and a tough session.
  • Cal well done on the trails, I love running on trails but not so much when its technical as you have to look down not up, however you will get stronger running them, hope the ankles are okay.

    Big G those GU puds are lovely. I'd throw the packaging stay away from the temptation of seeing how many calories there are. 

    Steve some decent pacing well done.

    Last night I jotted down + and - of injection, my concerns and questions for doc.  1st question chance of causing more damage running on pain relief injection, he explained the injection would act as an anti inflammatory allowing me to recover more efficiently, however I could do more damage as the pain relief would mask it which could be more harm than good.  I explained how the level of pain in the heal has reduced after running including tuesdays most testing run 9 miles at training pace and could walk around with 1/10 pain, he pressed around foot, he said it seemed less inflamed and the area of pain reduced from last time.  I'm going to try a few more weeks without the injection, see if I am on the mend and do this naturally.  He has told me to come and see him if I do want to go ahead with the injection.
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Ankles are fine. I think the fact I've rolled them so much previously (the right one has been badly sprained several times) means that they're a bit unstable, but also that the ligaments are already stretched so it's pretty hard to do any more damage to them.
    Official time was 44:35.
    Here's one of the better photos one of my clubmates took (they're all a bit blurry, probably because of the dusk light). Quite like this one because I don't look fat. (I'm not fat, but I'm the kind of shape that can look like the Goodyear Blimp when photographed from the wrong angle...).
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