Shades Marathon Training

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  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    Shades - Im working tomorrow but things should be more normal in terms of hours/stress from today so I can get running again in better conditions. Another question on this HR training, it feels like it needs a heavy amount of mileage to make a difference. Is that fair and how much would you say you would need? I know it’s not an exact science but would 30miles a week for a couple of months make a meaningful difference? I’m not sure whether it would be sensible to keep training at this HR entirely through actual marathon training which I hope to start again in July. 

    I managed to book a place for Brighton in April 2021 this morning as an early bird deal for 45 quid. Since this is a backup in case the September one doesn’t go ahead I think it’s a reasonable price. I was running for charity for this year’s anyway. 
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited May 2020
    Shades, sounds like you had a nice run there, and that's an amusing article for that car :) 

    Rcouture, I'm no expert in HR training, but I've read that Maffetone says that his method would work for any runner, regardless of what they're training for and their mileage.  He says that of course if someone is only doing say 10 miles a week they're not going to be able to run a marathon, but that's not their goal.  I think one benefit of the method is that people are fresher and running at the easier pace means they're less prone to pick up niggles.  This then means they can do more mileage a week if they're able to, and hopefully be more consistent over several weeks.  But he says you don't necessarily have to be doing lots of mileage to get benefits.

    I did 10 miles this morning on one of my regular routes.  There was a section of around 2.5 flat miles where "something" seemed to be clicking.  It was still a slow pace but the HR was stable and I was just in a rhythm at that effort, which felt good.

    A bit more insight here on the 1:59 challenge from Kipchoge, which Ineos released yesterday.  
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGuDQSoNu6M&feature=youtu.be
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Rcouture - whatever weekly mileage you can do will all benefit from base training and yes use it too when marathon training.    When you're at the stage of marathon training where you want to do some faster stuff then you can still do that with HR training, but if you get that base in first you will have a much more enjoyable and faster marathon.   Lots talk of the high mileage with HR training and mainly that's because HR training doesn't stress your body in the same way so they are able to increase the weekly mileage without tiredness or injury.

    That's a good price for Brighton early bird entry.

    Big G - I've just finished watching that YouTube link, was really good and he's quite inspirational.   Going from training at his MAF rate to now 20 bpm lower is impressive.    So when his improvement plateaued he then dropped his training HR for all his easy/base runs and did long intervals at his MAF or a little higher HR.

    Really good you hit that zone this morning, feels good doesn't it?

    I'll look at that YouTube tomorrow, I've had enough today.

    Have sent a Feedback to Lufthansa, quite a lengthy process but they are very precise.   I was ultra polite as I know they are too.   I expect I'll get the same reply as you did though.
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Lovely Shades - I have seen those and the green ones but they're hard to spot while the trees have leaves on. They do have a distinctive bouncy flight that makes them easier to spot in the air.
    Rcouture - £45 for Brighton is a bargain - it's usually north of £70.

    Anyway, sorry I can't comment a bit more on all your runs. I am definitely sick. Whether it's Covid or something else I don't know. I have no breathing issues or coughing and have not run a temperature. It's progressed from what I thought was a bad tension headache on Monday evening to chills and full body aches (the pains have been pretty bad, particularly down my legs), fatigue, lack of appetite and his morning I woke up with nausea. I did have some coffee which I then projectile vomited across the bathroom. I am sleeping/napping a lot and have periods where I can do a bit more (I've even managed a couple of short, gentle yoga sessions).
    The chills seem to have stopped and the aches have diminished a bit although I still have a headache. Hopefully this means I have turned a corner.
  • mamafoxmamafox ✭✭✭
    edited May 2020
    Cal - That sounds really horrible.. I do hope you start to feel better soon. Any chance of you getting tested for Covid? What is the UK policy on that? As you haven't got a temp or chest problems it doesn't sound like it but then there are so many different symptoms and now variants on the virus you can't be too sure.

    Big G - Thank you for putting up that YouTube link. I'd never thought of looking on there for Maffetone info. I do need some motivation (and reassurance!) at the moment so your post came at a good time.

    Ian - Well done on your mile, you are so fast. I've never done a timed mile and I have absolutely no intention of trying one.

    Steve - Continuing to live up to your racing snake reputation.. great training.

    RCouture - Hope work eases off a bit for you. Must be difficult to fit in the time for HR training with all that going on.

    Shades - Beautiful bird there.. very strange about that deer too. That was a funny link about those cars. We have one of those. It's a fab toy for kids.. it's gone through all four of them and now the boys have tied it high in a tree and use it as a swing or a pulley system where they sqaush someone in it, winch them up high into the top branches.. then let go. Health and safety forget it.

    Anyway, on a running note things have improved slightly. However, if anyone was filming me crawling round the country lanes at the moment I don't think "Maffetone success story" would be the phrase they would use to describe me Shades! It's true to say though that the last time I properly followed his plan I saw enormous improvements (Ultimately resulting in my marathon PB) and its principles have always been a part of my training since.  I am now on week 4 and, thank God, yesterdays and todays run have shown a definite improvement. I am using the same two main routes so it is easy to make a comparison. I am also trying to be less erratic and not do so much walk/run but try and control things so I am continually "running" even if it is at an extremely slow pace. This way I seem to get a more constant pace and generally feel better about the whole thing. My goal is to complete my 16k circuit at my MAF hr (125) without having to walk. Then we'll see where we go from there. Work, which is looming, may put a spanner in things mind you.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Cal, really sorry to hear that - sounds awful, but also doesn’t sound like covid in terms of it didn’t go to your chest, so fingers crossed it’s not that. As you say hopefully you’re beginning to turn the corner now.

    MF/Shades, glad it was useful. Obviously he’s very much at the sharp end in his age group but the fact he was running so slowly for him at the start is encouraging to me. I did do a bit of stalking on Strava and saw he did 2:29 at last year’s Yorkshire Marathon as a V50, which I believe is the 4th fastest British time in that age group. But there are some success stories of more ‘normal’ runners too - there’s quite an enthusiastic but likeable American who is around 2hr for a half and he’s seen big improvements in his MAF pace. Time and again the message is ‘stick with it’, which is what I need to hear too.

    MF, I think in my case I thought 9:30min/mile was an easy pace for me, off of 8:00-8:15 for a marathon.  But it’s not according to my HR, which doesn’t lie!  Good news you’ve had a couple of decent runs.

    Shades, yes it was nice getting into that rhythm. I’m still walking on inclines (IE, the Torbay Half hills, which aren’t steep), which although frustrating I’m just reminding myself that as long as my HR is where it needs to be it’s good training. 
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Cal - you poor thing, that virus whatever it is sounds awful, I do hope you're now on the mend.  It just shows with all the staying at home etc how easy we can still pick up viruses.

    I see green woodpeckers a few times a year when they feed on the grass verges.  

    Mamafox - oh how inventive your children are, your garden must be full of booby traps.  

    Glad the running is starting to improve and you seem to be enjoying it more.
    Make the most of your last few days at home but I'm sure work won't be so bad once you're back and no cooking.

    It's amazing how we've sort of got used to the lockdown.  I didn't run yesterday and I actually forgot to go out for my walk, I was fairly busy but I never even thought about it.   So I've just walked down to Aldi got the last tray of eggs.   Saw one of the girls that works at the leisure centre, I do miss having a chat with folk so was nice to see her.

    Big G - yes, he was really interesting and although he's running circa 120 mpw every week with no step back weeks he didn't even look thin and tired which is common with runners that fast.

    It won't be long until you won't need to walk those hills.

    Do you know if your fellow Trotters are training well during the lockdown?

    Got that standard reply from Lufthansa, I'll wait now and see if I get anything else.
    I have an Aer Lingus flight booked for June that I need to sort out first.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Cal-Hope you get better soon.
    Big G-Have you watched the Floris Gierman videos on youtube,he's probably the biggest MAF guy on there.
    Mama-Hope you get going again soon.
    Decided to take a day off today,work was a bit hectic so took a rest day.
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    After dozing all morning I had some chicken salad for lunch with no issues. I think it could be some kind of food poisoning - I wouldn't be surprised if it's due to the mice. (I got another one last night). I'll have to give the kitchen a thorough scrub once I have the energy.
    I think I'll be OK though. The aches are definitely diminshing and I feel a normal tempreature now, although I am still pretty wiped out.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Cal - well that's good news you're feeling a bit better and definitely doesn't seem to be Covid.

    I've had Norovirus twice and your symptoms seem very like that.  I've had the projectile vomiting and my hips and legs were aching so much I couldn't lie comfortably.  It's also incredibly easy to catch.  It usually comes on one or two days after infection, had you been shopping//launderette in the last few days?

    Either that or that bloody bag of oats had a lot to answer for.
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    Cal - Great that you might have turned a corner on this illness
    MF - Encouraging to hear that this method has led to lots of improvement. I am also basically running the same route so should have a decent benchmark. 
    7 miles for me today. First back to back days of running since marathon training was abandoned in March. At this pace you really do feel like you can just go on and on. I was actually slower than my rotten run yesterday at 1bpm lower avg HR but run felt much more controlled. I also have the problem of a hill right at the start of my route which I am running to then walking up slowly so as not to mess up my rhythm. 
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Ian, yes, I’ve seen a few of his videos and that one I posted was by him too. 

    Cal, good to hear than an easy day has helped a bit. Fingers crossed you’re over the worst of it now. 

    Rcouture, great news the run felt more controlled today.  

    After my run, I’ve had a day in the garden. Yet more raised beds made!  Pizza oven was sparked up late afternoon :)
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Shades, I did my main shop Friday and then a secondary shop on Monday, so it's possible. It did occur to me it could be noro.

    I've just had some supper and half a tub of low calorie ice cream so appetite seems to be better. Still tired and a bit achey but I think I'll be better tomorrow and maybe even get a run in on the weekend.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Rcouture - a much better run from you.  :) 

    Big G - pizza oven is a good reward from your labouring in the garden.

    Cal - you're making a speedy recovery digging into the ice cream, that's great news.


    8 miles today for me.   I did hills yesterday so had planned flattish today but after a couple of miles I thought I'd take a route that I usually only run in the summer and not very often.   Thought it would be undulating as in my head I would get to a certain point and that would be 4 miles and I'd turn for home.   But when I got to the point I had in mind I was only at just over 3 miles so thought  I'll just run up this road for another mile then turn around.   The whole mile was uphill, climb for that mile was 180 ft and I managed to keep my HR to 80% which was good really as it was tough in places.   Fabulous view from the top and lovely run back down.   Roads were so quiet, what with lockdown and BH, great for running.


  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Good news you've got some appetite back, Cal.  How was your day today?

    Did you run all of that, Shades?  Well done on the run :)

    Full on day in the garden today but got lots done, and enjoyed it out in the sun all day. It meant I only did 4 miles early evening, but that’s ok and I hope to do 7-10ish tomorrow. 


  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Cal-Always a good sign when the appetite is back.
    Big G-Sorry I missed the link,he had a long interview with Maffetone a few years ago,probably still on there.
    Mama-Love the story of the kids winching each other into the trees :-)
    Shades-Decent length hill that,I'm always telling you to get more hill training.
    11 miles tonight,legs felt a little tender,probably from the stupid mile on Wednesday,but loosened up fine,day off tomorrow so fancy a longer one.
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Well, still alive here...I am a little better but haven't improved as much as I hoped. Still some pains and generally feeling under par. Guess I have to be patient.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big G - yes, I did run all that hill, there was some swearing too as every corner I went round it went up hill a bit more.   

    Ian - I'm not surprised you had sore legs after that sprint mile.

    Cal - take care, it can wipe you out for quite a few days.   At least there's no worry about damaging your race prep right now :/ 


    8 miles this morning, lovely day, fresh and about 7 degrees when I went out and had warmed up to about 13 by the time I'd finished.   Flat and undulating route today, my Saturday Lane course.   My quads were a little tired, I think maybe from the long downhill yesterday.

    And yet more loose sheep, this time a ewe that was the wrong side of the gate and she couldn't work out how to get back into the field, I suspect her lamb went for a wander outside the gate and she squeezed herself out too.   But I couldn't put her back in the field as if I opened the gate and stood back all the sheep might have escaped too.   Luckily I saw the farmer who farms on neighbouring land, she said the field was rented out but she thought she knew who owned the sheep and would call them.  So that's my good deed done for the day. :)
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Think I've commented before about how fast the kids in our club are,the mile was part of a BMC competition,and our club won it,top 6 scored by wava and the average was 87.5%,I'd have needed 85.5 to score.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    You’ve got a quick club there Ian!

    Cal, good news there’s some improvement at least. 

    Shades, that’s encouraging for me as at the moment it feels a long way of being able to run up that Torbay hill. It’s a goal and if I get to that it will be a big thing as I’m way off at the moment.

    Shades, I forgot to answer your query about club mates training. Just from Strava but I think a lot are still getting out although many are complaining of a loss of mojo. A few were training for spring marathons and they’re struggling not having a goal to aim for :( I’m lucky I think as that side of isn’t bothering me now I’ve got the HR stuff to think about. The guy who collapsed at Plym Trail last year is doing some crazy mileage - for the last few weeks he’s been doing over 100 miles a week.  This week he’s done 136 and he hasn’t ran today yet. He’s going out on the trails and seems to be loving it. He did have a week where he reduced it as he had a niggle but apart from that it’s been 100+ a week. 

    10 miles today, which felt really controlled and I had a good run out. 
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Ian - must be the water up there, or we're southern softies down here ;) 

    Big G - last year when I joined the gym and was on my mission for DD etc., I did a few months of base training, 50mpw.  When I got to the stage where I was ready for the next stage introducing 2 ILTHR runs a week I often just chose an undulating/hilly route instead and only allowed myself to reach 80% on the hills, my ILTHR HR range is 77 to 80 %.   So I've become well practised in doing that when not running on the flat and I think that has really helped.   

    I don't know what your next stage with Maffetone is.   I've just started reading his book, right from the beginning, it's going to take a while.   Thankfully I've got past the bit when he woke up one day and decided to become a songwriter....barmy :D 

    Re the Trotters, I asked because I know a lot of the Trotters train together and of course haven't been able to do that lately, and a lot of them like to race very frequently.

    Not sure why MD is training so much, I suppose he's furloughed at the moment and is enjoying the time he has to train.

    Good run from you today.


    Re flights, not heard any more yet from Lufthansa.    

    But I need to deal with my Aer Lingus flight booked for June first.   Some time ago I had an email saying I could transfer FOC, I've now had an email offering me a voucher worth 110% of my booking, but they've not said the flight is cancelled, so I've had a look at the website and they're showing all the flights that day/week to Dublin as 'sold out', which of course they're not.   So I suspect a marketing ploy to preserve their cash, hoping I transfer or take the voucher.  If not at the last minute they'll probably contact me to say the flight is cancelled.   However, if I can find a suitable date/event to transfer to I may do that as when we are finally back flying I guess we're not going to be able to get such cheap flights as we're used to.    If the 14 day quarantine comes in and stays for a long time it shouldn't apply to Republic of Ireland.
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    Nice running all. Hope you’re better Cal. 
    7 miles for me today at 141bpm so fine. Was a bit slower than previous runs but it was 23 degrees out. I think I’ll ignore pace for now since the effects of this training seem to come through so slowly. The only thing is it makes you wonder whether your legs will even be able to run fast again! Back up to 30 mpw now and it barely feels like I’ve been exercising which is great (I hope!). Think if I can average 40mpw or so I’ll be happy. 
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, I think MD was training for Thames Path 100.  He did say somewhere that he's got a house full so he's getting out the house when he can....  He did 30+ miles yesterday on a very hilly coastal route.  Regarding Maffetone I'm not sure of the next steps as such but I think similar to Hadd, I need to get that 5-mile MAF test to be a consistent pace first.  It's not that I'm following Maffetone as such, it's just that the 142 of Maffetone and 145 of Hadd broadly align anyway.  I just need to get that MAF test more consistent, and hopefully a bit faster over the coming weeks, which will take time anyway.

    Well done Rcouture.  Good that you think you might be able to increase the mileage if you want to.
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    Big G - I’ve listened to a few of this Floris Gierman guy’s stuff now (via his podcast). His lifestyle/mindfulness stuff isn’t for me but the interviews are really interesting since most of his guests are proponents of this type of training. The ones with Maffetone himself are good. 
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    RCouture-If you can safely increase your miles that will give you a massive increase,it may only seem like 10,but its 30%.
    Big G-We have a very fast youth team,think we have 4 or 5 national champions,but we tend to lose them when they go to uni so are adult teams are average.
    19 miles today,felt hard especially at the end but it was pretty undulating in parts and it was hot.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2020
    Rcouture - that's a good run especially in much warmer conditions which makes quite a difference to controlling HR.   As Ian says you can comfortably increase you mileage without having to worry that it's too much or too soon.

    Ian - I expect your legs are still annoyed at the sprint mile.    ;) 

    Cal - I hope you're recovering well.

    Big G - I didn't sleep that well last night so in the middle of the night picked up Maffetone's book and read quite a bit.   I'm on a much more interesting bit now, MAF HR and the MAF test.   I did say to you before that I didn't understand why when doing the MAF test he expects there to be cardiac drift, but he does.   He does however expect as time goes on the pace for each mile to be faster than the previous MAF test.   There's a little table in the book showing mile time from MAF test and predicted 5 km race time.   I take it you have the book too?


    10 miles for me today, first time back into double figures for a run for 2 months :o , I'm easing my weekly mileage up to 50mpw and then from June hope to ramp it up a bit more.    Did one of my favourite routes that has flat, undulating and hilly bits so it's never dull, I did run out past the field where the ewe had escaped yesterday, all safely back in the field now.    Ran through a couple of villages and a tiny hamlet where the children have been enjoying the lack of traffic and had drawn out a hopscotch area in the middle of the road.   Lovely morning, but tricky to dress for as it was 7 degrees when I went out but knowing it would be up to 15 degrees by the time I finished, managed to get the kit right but I was warm at the finish.   I overcooked one of the long hills too, letting my HR get too high and then couldn't get it down for the last couple of miles of my run .
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Nice, Shades.

    After several days of rest, a couple of walks and some yoga, I went out for an experimental run this morning. I still have some discomfort in my back and neck (the tension from which is what I think was causing my headache) otherwise feel about 85% OK. I did 6 miles at a recovery pace. It wasn't hugely enjoyable as it was still very warm and felt humid, but I got it done. Now I just need to wait and see if there are any adverse effects from that.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Cal, good news you felt able to do a run, so hopefully you'll be okay tomorrow too.

    Shades, I don't have the book actually.  Would you say it's worth getting?  If so, I'll order a copy.  

    Ian, we don't really have that in my club.  There are a couple I can think of who are very quick (one of who has got a place at a US university, which must be fantastic for her), but they don't really train with the club as such.  Lots in my club have their own goals and train to the best of their own abilities etc, but I don't think we'd be descried as a "quick" club.  There're other clubs close by (Torbay AC, and also Torbay Tri) which seem to attract quicker runners, and they're both still friendly etc.

    Rcouture/Ian, thanks for the recommendation on the Maffetone interview with Flores Gierman.  I watched it yesterday and it was good to hear it from the "horses mouth", so to speak.  

    Rcouture, I also don't go in for the mindfulness stuff particularly, but I'm interested in the training aspect.  

    It'll be interesting to see what is announced today by BoJo.  I don't think whatever is said will impact me at all really.  There is some talk about possibly allowing more exercise which would be great, but there are differences between the home nations too, which is making it a bit more confusing.  I'll just wait and see what he says.  I don't have kids but I've read a lot about how schools are a good leveller in terms of helping kids from disadvantaged backgrounds, and of course kids who come from families with no/limited devices or poor broadband are probably getting more left behind, so it'll be interesting to see if they start opening some schools/classes in a limited way.  I'm not trying to second guess, but just musing really.

    There's an elderly couple opposite me who grow lots of plants to sell to the public with proceeds going to Samaritans.  They have it all out in their driveway so there's no issue with social distancing.  My OH has got way too many tomato plants, so she went over to see if this couple wanted them to sell - but she then initially came back with a different variety of tomato (a tiger variety?) :)  She ended up taking over about 6 plants, and the couple were saying they've had a very good few weeks of selling stuff, presumably because the garden centres are shut.

    A late night last night for me, as a group of friends had another quiz night, which means I'm just kind of waking up as I type this.  Hopefully I'll get out for a run later, although I'm aching a bit from yesterday.  We were out in the garden for probably about 7hrs yesterday - we're definitely making progress in that we've got two levels at a position where they're usable now, which is probably about 1/3 of it.  Still got the harder 2/3 to deal with though, which includes taking a large, rotten shed down.  There's a lot of rubbish but we're managing to reuse a lot of the decent wood to make beds, and we'll burn the rotten wood, and I think a lot of the rubble will basically be buried.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Cal - quite brave of you getting out for a run so soon after being poorly but I can understand wanting to get out in the fresh air and back to some normality.    

    Feet up and ice cream for the rest of the day perhaps :)
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Big G-I think the main reason we have a very fast youth section is that we are one of the few places around here with a track and also gym access so it attracts them,aswell as being in a lot of leagues.

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