Shades Marathon Training



    Rcouture - I don't remember seeing anything in Maffetone's book about predicted pace for a marathon based on your MAF rate, maybe Big G has seen something? 

    Do you know your max heart rate, from a test not by using a formula?  

    In Hadd's literature he has that best possible marathon HR is 90-91% of MHR.   But I stress that would be ultimate peak training and as we know there are so many other factors that can affect what happens on race day.   Hadd's training gradually winds up the LTHR runs until you reach the stage where you can run 10 miles at marathon HR with no cardiac drift and feel that you could do it all again at same pace and still no cardiac drift.

    I just looked back at my spreadsheet for best running year, I trained using Hadd but never got past doing any ILTHR at 80% but I still knocked out a few PB's.   My best races that year..

    31/07/10 Marathon 87% MHR - PB
    08/08/10 Marathon 85% MHR - PB
    29/08/10 Six hour race 84% MHR - PB
    04/09/10 50 mile race 81% MHR - PB
    19/09/10 10k race 91% MHR - PB
    17/10/10 Marathon 87% MHR - PB

    So I only raced once at 91%, I couldn't have run any further than 10km at that HR.   Out of the marathons the one at 85% was the best paced and that seems to be the average HR that I run a marathon at but sadly not at the pace I did 10 years ago, partly due to increasing age but mainly as I haven't again reached that level of fitness.

    Big G - yes, I've not had the appetite for long runs either, I'd much rather a few marathons to do as my long run.    Incidentally in 2010 before the first marathon PB I only did one long run, a 20 miler one week before and my previous marathon was 6 or 7 weeks before.
    I can understand those that race heavily and do little training not really doing much running at all during lockdown and also those that spend 12 months preparing for a fast marathon losing motivation too.   

    I'm fortunate as I love training and don't race usually for 6 months of the year although I dropped my mileage too for a few weeks from Feb when I had that gym injury to my chest.

    Cal - you always seem to be highly motivated despite the lockdown, especially when it comes to the long runs.

    Yes, it seems harsh about Boston qualifying times but I can understand why they do it.    Every runner I know with a GFA time is capable of going out and getting that qualifying time again...subject to finding a race to do it in though!  

  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    Shades - That’s very interesting. It seems like something in the low 80s of MHR for someone at my level might be a target to aim at as a race predictor (I don’t think I’d race to HR). I have never tested my max HR. According to my Garmin (wrist based at the time), the highest I’ve hit in the last year was 184 when doing some yasso 800s. I also don’t recall it being that demanding so that could be way off.  
    Rcouture - I think you could possibly run at 85% in a marathon.    If you have no pre marathon races of a shorter distance then we might have to send you out to run say 10 miles as fast as you can in training and from that we could get a decent prediction for a marathon.    The prediction would mainly give you the pace that you must not go faster than for the first half, stick to that and then even if you slow a little in the 2nd half you'll run a very good debut.

    Just saw this about Boston so looks like they've extended the qualifying period....

    Also, the qualifying window for the 2021 marathon has been extended, so anyone who has run a qualifying time since September 2018 will be able to apply for next year’s race.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades/Rcouture, no I haven't come across anything yet in the Maffetone book about predicted pace.

    Cal, same here - I've introduced a couple of new routes to my regular runs since lockdown.  I haven't got involved with Segments, but I thought Strava had a way of scoring them based on age ranges.  Could be wrong though.

    Shades, very interesting stats there.  On that one that you described as the best paced marathon, I don't suppose you how the HR progressed/raised over the course of the race?  Was it something like 82-88 (for an average of 85), for example?  Also did you purposefully set out to race at that, or did that happen to be the outcome when you looked at the stats afterwards?
    Big G - bear with me while I go and open the relevant spreadsheet.....

    Right here's my mile splits with HR.   Average for first half was 82 and 2nd half at 88, exactly as you say.
    I did a PB the week before at Faversham and knew I could go faster and I deliberately raced this to get my first sub 4:30.  It was August but cool for the first 3 hours.   Its a 2 (identical) lap course and gently undulating, biggest climb at 4 miles and then at 17 miles.   But some good fast downhill in 2nd half of each lap.   But I ran it like a woman on a mission, I couldn't have done any better on the day, I've put my race notes below.

    My race notes....I drove to Liverpool the day before and took my car over on the ferry, so not a really restful day pre race.   Stayed for the week and went on to run 100.1 miles that week.

    Well...probably the first time (apart from my 100th marathon) that I've had a really good race at the IOM marathon.    I knew after my PB at Faversham last week that I could go faster on a more settled course (i.e. without that pesky little hill).   I did eat a lot prior to this race and tried to be as rested as I could considering the journey over etc.   Weather was good, no wind to speak of and not hot, quite pleasant.  I had slept quite well the night before too at the motel, so on the start line I felt that I was in with a chance of a PB and  I would have a crack at it.   I went off steadily at 10 min miles as planned and was a bit disappointed that on the hilly bit (mile 3 to 4) I slowed a lot more than planned.   Fortunately I was able to make this up on the following miles which had some good gentle downhill stretches.   I reached halfway in 2.10.42 and was feeling good.   At this stage I was starting to overtake other runners and I was determined not to be distracted from my task of getting my first sub 4.30 PB.   I focussed on each mile and tried to run strong, at the hilly bit on the 2nd lap ( mile 16 to 17) I had to walk/run and lost quite a bit of time here.   

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Thanks Shades, very interesting to read. 
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Cal-If you are premium on Strava,if you click in to the segment there is a part where you can see your age group.
    Shades-I did indeed take the refund for Boston as I couldn't make the new date.
    They haven't deferred people so that will make it harder for some to get in who could have ran it this year,because it isn't a set time there will be more under,I think last year the cut off was around 1.39 under your base time,so people then had Autumn marathons and anyone who raced this year to get further under,I am an example,I was originally 8 mins under,but since then I am now 13 mins under so people who were 1 min under may now be 3 or so,therefore increasing the time you need to be under to get in,and people who missed out may now be under,as usual with Boston it is a guessing game,but I'd be pretty certain it will be a lower time required for 2021.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    I had a bit of a confusing email, which I had to check wasn't some kind of phishing email (it wasn't).  I've got an email from Krakow marathon reminding me that I can get a refund until 31st May......but I haven't entered Krakow!  I know it's very easy to sit on the Internet and enter events left, right and centre but I'm pretty sure I'd have remembered that.  I have seriously looked at Krakow in the recent past and I think I did provide an email address at some point, so maybe they've done something strange with their email lists, or maybe something got lost in translation somewhere.  I have got an entry for Warsaw, which looks to be the same organisers, but the emails and links definitely point to the Krakow website.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Big G-Just tell them you want a refund and see what happens.
    Ian - whatever and however the big marathons, that have cancelled this year, decide on the policy for GFA for next year there are going to be winners and losers.  Wonder if some will increase the number of GFA entries if they can.

    Big G  - request a refund and they'll soon tell you if it's an error.   Is Warsaw still going ahead?

    Did you notice with North Dorset if you want a refund you had to provide bank details.   Just shows how crap UKA's entry system on RunBritain is that they can't process refunds.

    I had my refund from Kildare marathon today which was only 5 cent less than I paid which considering the slump in the economy since I paid was amazing.  My bank also refunded the currency charge too which I didn't expect.

    No refund from Lufthansa yet, think it will be a while.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades/Ian, I may try that :)  

    Shades, currently Warsaw is still on in September....but obviously I'm not sure if it's likely.  It's quite a large event with 7000+ finishers.  Yes, I saw that about NDVM and the refund process.
    Cork announced today that they've cancelled, first weekend in September.   Original date was June.

    Big G - does that mean that if Warsaw is cancelled you'll have to negotiate a refund from Ryanair ?   :o
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Big G-There was a challenge the same as the one you are considering,just the 11 days for you to beat..
    Shades-The other thing that Boston have to decide,is that usually the decide GFA from the date the race will be,potentially runners could have ran a race in Sep 18 aged 47,then do the 2021 race as a 50yr old and use that time.
    9 miles after work,hopefully running the same Sunday to bring 251 miles for the month,a new record,3 miles above last month.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Ian, 11 days is crazy!!

    Shades, we booked with BA as we’re supposed to be flying from London for that weekend. I can’t remember why we didn’t fly from Bristol now - there must have been an issue with flight dates/times I suppose. 

    For your Frankfurt flights and the request for a refund, did you call them to arrange that?  Was it fairly painless?
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Ian - I'm not, I only just joined. I use Garmin Connect primarily - I only joined Strava for a club thing, but I do quite like it.
    Ian - that 11 days challenge was amazing.   So this one mile an hour must have a long history somewhere for it suddenly to be resurrected now.   Those women were sensational, although the skill is being able to wake every hour and get out there.

    Hope you make that record mileage by the end of tomorrow, I'm sure you will.

    Big G - bit of luck there for you, I would think BA are a lot easier to deal with than Ryanair.   I hear Ryanair are in trouble again as when furious customers have said they will use chargeback to get their refunds some Ryanair staff have told them that using chargeback is fraudulent, it's not of course.

    Yes, Lufthansa phone call very pleasant and painless.   Recording said I was in a 15 minute queue, complete silence while I was holding, but after 5 minutes my call was put through, to the USA I think.   I recognised the USA ring tone and the girl was American, didn't offer me any voucher or transfer just processed the cancellation, quick and pleasant.   Email within a day or so to say flight was now cancelled, but I haven't had my money back yet.   I have had a further email about a week later saying I would be contacted re my refund, but nothing yet.   I will maybe leave it until 30 days then phone again.

    I haven't had a rest day for 14 days so thought I might do so today but I didn't feel I needed it and I did have another new pair of shoes to try out.   Have heard rave reviews about these shoes so they were high up my wish list, Reebok Forever FloatRide Energy.   Feel very different from my other shoes, so thought a gentle 5 miles to try them out but I ended up doing my Saturday Lane route of 8 miles, shoes are amazing, love them, great on hills.    

    Saw what I thought was a fox on the road ahead but as I got closer it was a ginger cat trying to pick up a dead rabbit, cat tried to drag the rabbit to get away from me but couldn't and the cat ran away.   The rabbit was huge as big as the cat.
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Seems the cat bit off more than he could chew with that one!
    Glad you like the new shoes. I bought yet another pair of Epic Reacts in the Nike sale - just under £60. Be rude not to at that price.

    6 miles recovery run today - went up to Clapham Common then on to Wandsworth Common this time as I'm a little bored of Tooting, nice as it is. Saw a guy in a Centurion bib so asked him if he was doing the 100 and he said it was his last day today. Wished him luck.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, good news Lufthansa were easy to deal with.  I'll have to contact the race organisers at some point as well.

    11.5 miles for me this morning, and I had a nice run out.  An elderly chap stopped me and started talking about his cataracts, and he was talking to me about this for about 5 minutes!  It was an enjoyable run, but I do feel quite tired now so I'll see how the day goes before deciding whether to do a short run later on or not.
    Cal - definitely worth stocking up on the shoes when they're at a good price.   Are you still doing the Tennesee thing?   

    I saw a few days ago Collette (Marathon Club Ireland and UK 100MC) had already reached the 1000k and was on her return 'trip'.   She's raising money for a local hospice by running 500 miles, then 500 more and I think she's doing about 180 miles a week.   She's the woman that has done the most marathons in Ireland and UK club too, over 700 now.

    Big G - I've done nothing yet about my hotel or race entry for Frankfurt.   Vague possibility the race might go ahead and I could get a flight although unlikely.  I think Ian said there are still flights from Heathrow but I'd need National Express to be back on normal schedule as I believe the parking at Heathrow is very expensive.     I'm leaving it for now as if the race cancel the event there might be an offer of a refund.

    I'm finding folk even friendlier than before during lockdown, I guess that elderly man must have needed to have a chat.   Your good deed done for the day.

    Are you still having aches and pains in your ankles etc.?
  • mamafoxmamafox ✭✭✭
    Haven't posted for a while as have absolutely nothing running related to say. After my 3 week streak of daily runs I have ground to a complete halt and have run once in two weeks. My asthma is really bad because of the pollen and I'm just shuffling round. The last two occasions my HR has been through the roof and that was pretty much walking. All very depressing and the only positive note I can dredge up is that the sciatica problem has finally seemed to have gone.
     Back in work full time as well which leaves zero time for base training anyway. 
    Anyway, sorry about the moan; The pollen will hopefully ease up in a week or so and I can restart my training again for the umpteenth time this year  :#

    Enjoying reading about all your running anyway, even if it is making me wildly jealous  :/
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Sorry you're suffering, mf - I think we need a good rain to clear the crap out of the air. Good news on the sciatica, though!

    Shades - I am indeed. Long way to go yet (and that's just one direction). Predicted finish is end of July, which is a month ahead of schedule - not that bad considering I had a week of low mileage when I was ill.

    Big G - nice going. Yes, I think a lot of older people are isolated and probably haven't spoken to anyone in ages. (Actually that's me, too - the odd word with someone in a shop, pretty much. But I don't feel too isolated as I talk to plenty of people online).
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, Kris W, the postie, did his 100 miler in 18:02!  Looked to be a flattish route, but even so. Incredible time. 

    MF, really sorry to hear you’re struggling :(
    Mamafox - sorry to hear you can't run while the pollen is so bad.   Very high here too but doesn't affect me.

    But good that the sciatica has healed.

    Any idea when races might resume in France ?

    How is work going?  Are you still relieved of the cooking and how are the schoolchildren getting on with social distancing?

    Cal - well there's no rush to do the Tennessee mileage, just enough to keep the mileage up though.

    Dry and dusty here too, but no sign of rain sadly.

    Big G - that's a brilliant time by KW, especially as I suppose he ran the whole distance on his own.  
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Yes, I think he ran most - if not all - of it on his own.  A lot of it was on the paths from Dawlish-Exeter-Exmouth by the looks of it.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Just reading back a bit.

    Shades, there is some slight soreness in my ankles but generally since I had the bad run I've been going on fairly flat routes, and not doing too much off road.  I think this has helped it ease a bit.

    I've just noticed that I've done 300 miles to this MAF heart rate.  And also exactly 1000 miles in total this year so far.
    Big G - that's a good route he took with a lot of flat.   With that sort of distance you don't want a course with too many twists and turns.  Amazing to run 100 miles on his own.

    Been studying that spreadsheet then ?

    Once we can race again you'll be working on that spreadsheet to try and correlate training pace to racing pace.  I have all sorts of calculations to try and do that, sometimes I'm close, sometimes not.

    Incidentally re the stats I put up for that marathon, my average training pace for the few previous weeks was 11:10 min/mile and 76% MHR.  I was doing a couple of ILTHR each week and did a Hadd test too, that's why higher than BT rate.
    So race pace was 92% of training pace.  But I'm sure that % varies between runners but might be a base figure for you to use.

    Just been watching the daily Covid update and from Monday 6 people can meet for exercise, 2m apart.   Wonder if EA will allow some club activities sticking to those numbers.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades-When I tried to use charge back for Air France,the C/C company took AF side and it was force majeur so they wouldn't credit it to me.
    Big G-Just ahead of me,currently on 980 so will tip over 1000 Monday or Tuesday.
    With slightly larger gatherings now allowed,I have sneaky feeling the Enigma events could start in August,will enter tomorrow just in case.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Ian, you've been training brilliantly though, with fantastic paces.  Really inspiring to be honest.

    Shades, that's interesting.  I am wondering/hoping if there may be a correlation between average pace for a MAF test and pace at a marathon.  Long post coming up!

    - on 16/9/2019 I averaged 9:08min/miles on MAF and then at Berlin on 29/9/2019 I did 3:27:03 which is 7:50min/miles.  So my Berlin pace was 86% of my MAF pace.
    - not as close in dates but on 18/4/2020 I averaged 9:30min/miles on MAF, but Marrakech on 26/1/2020 I did 3:40:55 which was 8:25min/mile pace.  So my Marrakech pace was 88.5% of my MAF pace.

    In fairness, after Marrakech I did feel I was training better anyway (you will remember my run up to Marrakech wasn't very good).  I'd like to think I  was currently closer (or even a bit under) a 3:30 marathon at the moment, but of course I don't know for sure.  If I am closer to a 92% conversion, from my average MAF pace of 9:05 min/miles on 20/5/2020 that equates to around 8:20min/mile pace, which is around 3hrs38.

    Also, I did cruise in a bit for the last few miles at Berlin, enjoying the atmosphere.  But it was still my best time last year by 3mins.

    Ultimately my goal is to squeak a PB (3:19, which is 7:35min/mile).  Based on:
    - 86% conversion I need to get my MAF down to 8:51min/mile, which seems doable in the near term if I keep progressing more or less as I am.  I know my rate of improvement will slow down at some point but there's still loads more I can do I think in terms of training.  I've only just started really.
    - 92% conversion I need to get my MAF down to 8:17min/mile, which seems a bit more challenging but still doable.

    I would really like to race a 5k too.  I'd like to see if I'm better/worse than what Maffetone's tables say.  I've only ever got sub-20 once and I'd like to do that again.  I've said it before but that sub-20 meant as much to me as my marathon PB at that time, purely because it took me so long to do it!  I know parkruns aren't races, but my parkun PB is a frustrating 20:01, which I'd like to improve on too.


    Anyway, I did 4 miles late yesterday but not sure if I'm going to run today.  I may rest, or do a short run, to try and start the week feeling fresh tomorrow.  If I don't run, I'll have finished the week on 56 miles which I'm fine with.  60ish seems to be the figure I'm settling on - my last few weeks since HR training have been 62, 60, 44 (toe issue), 82 (just to see if I could) and this week's 56.

    I saw some images locally and the beaches are busy here yesterday :(  I was feeling a bit more optimistic about things and how we were progressing through the virus, but I'm a bit concerned from some of the images and just what I've witnessed myself when walking around or running.  Did you see what happened on the Dorset beach over the weekend, with large numbers of people having to congregate as two helicopters were on the beach?

    Ian - I wouldn't expect you to be successful with Chargeback for a cancelled flight, but you weren't committing fraud or attempted fraud by asking.   Certainly worth a try.

    With the breaches in lockdown I think we're more likely to be in the 2nd wave and another lockdown but as you can defer or get a refund from Enigma then it makes sense to enter now as he will have his favourites from 100MC etc when entries might be limited.

    Big G - no, I didn't see that about the Dorset beach, nice pic of crowd not social distancing. :o    I didn't go out yesterday apart from my run and I could see just from my window that loads of people were out and several visitors to my neighbours.   More traffic and late night noise groups of teenagers perhaps walking past, maybe been down the parks, I have 3 parks near me.  These folk are never going to abide to isolation in the track and trace programme so it will be lockdown again unless we're really lucky.

    Whoops sorry, 😊 I know you've been poring over your stats, I made a typo and my marathon was 91%  (not 92%) of recent training pace, but remember that wasn't my MAF pace but was an average of 76% MHR.   I'm no natural athlete and have no talent apart from loving running so I'm sure my marathon HR% compared to training pace is higher than someone else with more natural ability and possibly age is a factor too.

    On a more recent spreadsheet, I think from an article in the press that we all read about slower training, I put in a table of average training pace over previous 16 weeks and marathon prediction was base on 83.33% of that pace but that % might be right for you but for me that would predict that I could run a 4:00 marathon now which is ridiculous as I know I couldn't get near that pace even in a half marathon.

    It will be really interesting when you've done a few marathons after your MAF training to get some stats.

    I forgot about the 5k Maffetone table, that will be interesting too.

    13 miles today for me, longest I've done in training for a very long time.   First run this year in a vest too as it's usually quite chilly when I go out early but I knew it was going to warm up today, which it did.  Nice flat route, only 381ft in total climb.   Took my drinks bottle and hated the first few miles as I find the noise so irritating, had a drink at halfway and then I got used to the noise after that so it wasn't too bad.   Found some sweets tucked away in the bottle belt when I stopped for a drink, so had one, the sweets must have been there for months.

    60 miles for me this week. 
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Idiots. I think it's important to note that the rules have been relaxed not because we're less at risk, but for economic reasons.
    Streatham Common was covered in rubbish today - really disheartening. I think we need a spell of bad weather to keep people indoors, but doesn't look like it'll happen any time soon.

    Ian - if smaller events start up again I might end up doing a Phoenix one as it's a bit closer to me. Always said I had no interest in the small ones, but if that's the only game in town, well... I'd still have to use public transport to get there, though, so I guess we'll see.

    Long run today. Aim was 14 miles which would take me to 200 for the month (not bad considering I only ran 13 miles the week I was ill) and 900 for the year so far. But I ended up doing 16.

    I'd planned a new route - up to Crystal Palace park via Streatham Common (it's a straight line from there), around the park then back via a few different greenspaces I'd spotted on the map. I'd studied the map carefully so as not to go wrong, and I mostly got it right.

    I took the most direct route to Streatham Common then ran up the side I normally run down (which is actually a bit steeper than the other side, but doesn't have a hard path) then along the road to Crystal Palace. The sun was in my eyes for a fair amount of this which made it tricky, even with sunglasses, and the road is basically a rollercoaster with some notable hills.

    Once I made it to the park I started by running along the terraces at the top, which is where the original crystal palace stood until it burned down. There are a couple of sphinx statues there which survived the fire.

    Then I ran down the hill (which has some very steep bits - had to slow right down there - to the dinosaur lake (there are Victorian dinosaur statues there) and along the bottom to where the parkrun starts. I did a lap of the winter parkrun route from memory (it's two laps - I did the single lap summer course the year before and don't remember it exactly) before heading back along the other side of the dinosaur lake and out of the park past the train station.
    I have fond memories of my dad rowing me around the dinosaur lake as a kid. It still has boats, but they are pedalos now.

    From there I wanted to find South Norwood Lake park so I could run around the lake. It turned out to be a really nice little park and I spotted a grebe on the water.

    After that I was supposed to cross the road and go through another little park where the area's second large transmitter stands (it isn't as well known as the huge one in Crystal Palace park, but it's still pretty big - close to 500 foot whereas the CP one is over 720) but I must have missed the path into the park as it wasn't at all obvious from the road. I carried on along the road and found some small woods with a trail path so I took that, which turned out to be very steeply uphill.

    From there I went along the road to the other side of the park I was meant to cut through, and found the road I intended to take next (called, memorably, Grange Hill). This one turned out to be a beast of a hill, but I was taking it downhill. I had to go pretty slowly down there. Obviously I will have to do the route in reverse so I can do it uphill next time - I must be masochistic!

    The map told me there was another green space just after the hill, and amazingly I found it - more woods, with another trail path that was slightly downhill and rather pleasant.

    This brought me out not far from the small wood (Biggin Wood) just past Streatham Common and Norwood Grove, so I cut through there (uphill again...cursing my glutes) then did a lap of Norwood Grove (another hill), onto the common,  uphill through the woods then back down through the Rookery Gardens, up the nasty Covington Way hill, down the common the side I normally run up and then home via the route I used last time.

    All told it was around 2 hours 51 - I was going pretty slowly for most of it, and aside from when I was huffing up hills (which seemed to be a lot of the time) I didn't feel overly tired. I think a lot of that was down to running a new route - I was thinking more about where I was going and enjoying new surroundings which didn't leave me any time to think about how tired I was. There was a lot of climb - 1,149 feet according to Strava or over 300m on Garmin - which was sufficient to earn me a Strava badge for doing 2000 metres this month (half of that was this week).

    Of course, doing three hilly runs in a week has not pleased my achilles - I actually think it gets more stressed by the downhills than the ups - so I will stick to some flatter runs next week to give it a chance to calm down. It's also time for new shoes as my Epics are over 700 miles now. They're still in reasonable shape so I can keep wearing them a bit longer, but will use a fresh pair as my primary shoe.

    I did use my hydration pack on this run (with the new bladder) and wore my club vest as this is basically a sleeveless T-shirt and covers more of the rub points than a strappier top. It seemed to do the trick.

    Anyway, that takes me to 56 miles for the week, 202 for the month and 902 for the year.
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