Shades Marathon Training

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  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Yesterday's update from Connemarathon, not so hopeful    :'(

    Following today’s meeting we have decided to continue to suspend entries. If things remain as they are with a requirement for 2m social distancing then the event will not happen. However, we still feel that it is too early to cancel and hope that the different phases that have been set out may be accelerated. With the event now less than 4 months away we are aware that you will need some certainty sooner rather than later and will continue to monitor the situation on a daily basis.

    If you would like to defer your 27th September 2020 entry to 18th April 2021 free of charge then please email [email protected]


  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Nice morning here this morning and following the pattern of my last MAF test where I'd had a good run the evening before, I decided on an impromptu MAF test, with the usual 1-mile warm up and I was feeling quite good.

    Unfortunately after the disappointing first mile of 9:23 I knew it wasn't going to be a good one, but I continued to see what happened and the rest of the mile were 9:10, 9:20, 9:35 and 9:41 for a total of 47:09 (so this is the worst of the three I've done since HR training).  No idea why as temp, humidity and wind meant it was very good conditions, so hoping it's just a temporary blip.  I do tend to have these runs where for whatever reason it's comparatively poor so maybe today was just one of those days.   Overall the trend of my regular runs is a good one, so hopefully nothing to worry about (i.e., I don't feel I'm overtraining etc) but I'll keep an eye on it.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Another of my 2020 races bites the dust....

    Due to the uncertainty around the resumption of mass participation events in the current climate we have taken the decision to postpone The Hullavington Full Marathon until 2021. This is particularly disappointing as the event was timed to be the first full marathon run on the roads of Wiltshire in 30-years, now it will be 31-years. 

    I have set up the race again, to take place on Sunday 19th September next year and have transferred all of your entries over to this running. However, if this is not suitable for you, I can arrange a refund of your entry fee though this may take a while to arrange and I would require your instruction before 20th September 2020 in order to initiate this process.


  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2
    Big G - I know that's disappointing for you but I've had to abandon a couple of Hadd tests in the past.   It isn't that long is it since your last MAF test?    I know last time you had a good test after a 2nd run the day before but I would expect you to get better stats after a rest day and certainly not after a double.

    You know that today's test is not a true reflection of your training. 


  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades-I had spotted that race and bookmarked it to see if it went ahead.
    Big G-We all have odd crappy runs,mine was yesterday,as long as the general trend is getting better that is the main thing.
  • 1SteveMac1SteveMac ✭✭✭
    MF - Get well soon, sounds painful.
    Big G - Put it down to a bad day and move on, you have seen progress on the tests previously.

    I did 16 miles on Saturday and 5 miles on Sunday, both at easy pace 126bpm and 119bpm. Today was my second ILTHR so I had planned 4 miles at 125 or lower then 8 miles at 135-140. Didn't pace it great tbh compared to last week, but came out to 10:07(110), 9:35(114), 9:21(120), 9:39(122) Easy section, then onto;
    8:24(134), 7:20(139), 7:51(139), 7:37(139), 7:45(142), 7:51(139), 7:51(140), 7:45(140).
    Will do another 3 miles at this HR range on Sunday to make it 3 ILTHR in 2 weeks.

    Shades - Would you say that is steady HR/pace wise? It seem a bit wilder this week!!
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Sounds like a lovely, and amusing, run, Shades.
    My ankle felt less testy than yesterday so I gave it a go - just 6 miles and in a fresh pair of shoes (this pair of Epics is an eye shattering neon pink). There was some low level grumbling from the achilles but the post tib was an intermittent twinging. Not great so I'll be monitoring it. But aside from that, I felt really good, so it's a bit frustrating.
    I may try some speed work tomorrow as I know achilles is happier when I'm going fast and the Zoom Flys I use for that do seem to improve my gait mechanics.
    Speaking of which, I just ordered myself an early birthday present - a pair of Alphaflys. Obviously I will not be wearing them until racing resumes but, well, couldn't resist could I?
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades/Ian/Steve, I'm sure it's a blip.  Shades, yes, last one was 20/5.  Maffetone mentions that if a runner stalls or goes backwards it could be a sign of overtraining, but I really don't think it's that in this case in that if I feel I need a day off, I've no problem in taking one, and apart from a lack of decent sleep (which I know is important), I feel good.  I know that I have some really good runs and then some comparatively poor runs, and although I don't understand the reasons behind it, at the moment I've come to think that's normal for me.  
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2
    Ian - that Hullavington looks like a good race, sadly another one crossed of the 2020 list.

    Steve - that looks good to me.  Don't know if you find it hard to up the pace when making the transition to ILTHR pace, I do. But once you got in the zone by the 2nd half of the ILTHR  you look like you're cruising.  

    How is your pace at lower HR now, any improvement, I know its not long since you started Hadd.?

    Cal - glad the ankle is a lot better.

    I've seen those pink shoes, it is an eye watering bright pink.   :open_mouth:

    Great birthday present, might as well spend those returned entry fees on something nice for yourself.


    Big G - I don't think it's overtraining, you had that weary spell but you bounced back from that.   He does go on about overtraining but that usually comes on after a long period of heavy training often combined with a spell of poor health.

    I'm sure it's a blip, and too soon after your last MAF test, write it off.

    Hot here today, without the fresh breeze that we had yesterday.  I usually do my core tabata now before lunch but I've just cleaned the bathroom and my flat is too warm to consider getting sweaty.   Early lunch I think instead.😊
  • 1SteveMac1SteveMac ✭✭✭
    Shades - the HR on my 16 miler was higher than expected on the second half, but I think that was due to the heat, but I still kept it below 75%. That came out to 9:36 pace and Sunday's 5 miler came out to 9:29 pace, which was better.
    This is my 3rd week on HADD. No issues switching pace but I'm only on the first level of ILTHR. Next week I may try for 10 miles at 135-140.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Decided to have a go at MP today,didn't pick the ideal day as it is still hot today,and I went to the park,which isnt hilly but its constantly up and down.
    Had a mile warm up,stashed my water bottle then off I went,paces altered with the hills but tried to keep the effort the same,target time for the 8 was 54:55 and I finished in 54:52 so a good effort in the conditions.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Steve - yes, if the temperature increases significantly in the latter part of a run it's almost impossible not to have cardiac drift.   
    Happened to me on my Sunday run as in the last 4 miles the temperature shot up.


    Ian - you must be pleased with that especially on a warm day.  That's fast.... just need to find you a marathon to do.  :/

    Hot here this afternoon.  B)
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    I know it's only Tuesday but I think by this point thoughts would be turning towards Dartmoor Discovery.  Obviously cancelled but I reckon I'd be nervously looking at as many weather apps as I could find for the weather forecast.  It's really warm today but the forecast on Saturday looks quite good.

    Another race cancellation over here, which is the August Hermes Running one.  I have to say that for me personally I'm not too bothered about that one.  For me, I'm still wondering about Chester (early October) and Windermere (early November).  Apart from the two foreign ones, they're my two "big" UK events really and I'm not sure of their chances.

    Really hot here too and after this morning's run I decided not to run in the heat this afternoon and I've just been resting today.  Although not as bad as MF I do have some hay fever about me (scratchy throat and some sneezing) for the first time this year so far, so maybe that's part of what is going on this morning too (although I have to say, I felt fine this morning).  I do have some prescribed medication, so I will start using that as I do most years.  Anyway, I've enjoyed lazing about in the garden, reading, listening to podcasts etc.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Ian, Steve, I missed your comments somehow.  Well done on your runs.  Ian, that's a great session in the heat so well done and Steve, it sounds like you're really getting into HADD.  I wonder if/when I start plateauing a bit with MAF I may move over to that, but that's weeks/months away if I do.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big G - being this close to DD hadn't escaped my notice either, I had spent 6+ months in the gym and was training better running wise than I had for years.  But I'm not one to dwell on what might have been and move on quickly.
    Yes, does look like great DD weather though  :/

    That's quite early for Hermes to cancel, maybe it's to do with land permissions.  Unless Comrades has been moved to August as Dave usually takes a group to SA for that race.

    Apart from Frankfurt is Warsaw your other overseas event?

    The guys that organise Chester are good, if there's any chance of organising the race with SD rules they'll do it.  If the race venue is still the racecourse that is big, but there are a lot of entrants over the two distances.

    Windermere will be much more cautious, some of the roads are narrow in the early stages, but they're efficient too in the organisation

    Not surprised you decided against a 2nd run today.  Cooler tomorrow and the promise of some rain.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, yeah, I'm the same in terms of not dwelling on it too much.  We can't really do anything about it, after all, except keep training.  Yes, Frankfurt and Warsaw are the two foreign ones.  You had done so well with your strength training and weight loss etc for DD.  For me there was a chance of getting to my 100th this year, but I'm not even really bothered about that as again there's nothing I can do.  Maybe if I was stuck on 99 or something I'd feel different, but maybe not.  Don't get me wrong as I am missing racing, but for now I'm okay with what I'm doing with the MAF stuff in terms of a focus and the circumstances we're in.

    I've organised another Zoom quiz for the evening of the DD with Trotters.  Not just running/athletics this time but I've got 5 questions each on Sport, Music, "groups of three", film/TV and animals.  I may do a 6th category, but I'll see.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades-Yes I am pleased with it,it wasn't the easiest of courses either,will try and extend it out in a few weeks.
    Big G-We received an email off the Chester organisers about their half that is scheduled for 2 weeks before,it didn't sound promising,it is on their website, I think, if you want to look,but is bigger than the full though and runs through private land which the full doesnt.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big G - what number marathon we're on or aiming for seems less important right now, just finding a marathon to do would be a major achievement. 
      
    How many marathons have you done?   

    I was supposed to be doing my 400th in August, the knock on effect will be that it's highly unlikely I'll be on schedule to do my 500th when planned, if I ever reach that number now, but it doesn't really matter.   I wonder how the 100MC members are coping as for a lot of them the importance of the numbers far outweighed the importance of performance.

    Hope the quiz went well.

    Ian -  your MP run not being on an 'easy' course, makes the session even more effective training wise.
    Have you entered Chester Half?


    Rest day for me today, first one for about 18 days.   We're due some rain today, if it had been raining when I got up I'd have ditched the rest day for a run in the rain.   I do have to go out to the post office so hope it might be  gently raining for my walk down there.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, the quiz is happening on Saturday - DD day.  I've done 82 marathons at the moment.  If everything had gone well with no DNSs it was possible that Warsaw may have been my 100th.  I'm not bothered though.

    I think some of the 100MCers have taken it quite badly - the group of members who do lots of marathons (i.e., 50+ a year).  Some of them say they've lost their mojo and are struggling.

    Ian, thanks.  I'll take a look at that.

    7.5 miles this morning.  Didn't sleep well again and I'm afraid I did have to force myself out the door, but I'm really glad I went out.  I just took it steady (HR was average of 134) and I had an enjoyable run out.
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    I hope we do get some rain, Shades - we need it.
    I've had less than 10 hours sleep the last two nights (total, not each) so I could do with it being cooler. Oh and the mice haven't gone. Caught two last week and they're very active again. Heard them running and squeaking but they're avoiding my traps, the little shits. Having the fan on at night makes enough noise that they're not disturbing my sleep but they're quite noisy around 5am when I wake up (well, it was 3:45 this morning...)

    10 miles here, with some intervals. I did 5 miles easy (normal easy, not slow easy) on the way to the shark fin (the three roads I use for tempos and 5Ks which make a kind of shark fin shape) then hit 5K pace on the long side and the bottom, and recovered on the other side. Did that four times - was aiming for 5 but legs were dying and niggles were niggling after the fourth time around so I decided that was enough and did a mile and a bit easy pace on the way home.
    One of the guys in the club I introduced to that route has created a 5K Strava segment there called the Cal Jones Special, and I was very amused to come home and find I had got the female course record. My first Strava crown. :D It wasn't even as fast as I've run it before, given the recoveries, so it won't last long but I'll enjoy it while it does.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big G - sorry I read that about the quiz too quickly.   Why not have a round on DD questions but make them so that for instance Chair wouldn't necessarily know the answer....how many ponies on Dartmoor etc?  What was Phil Hampton's world record time?  Just an idea.

    I'm sure some of the 100MC are struggling, not so much the older members, but certainly the newer ones.

    Glad you had a good run despite a poor night's sleep, was warmer last night, nice low HR  :)


    Cal - I know, took my car out last night and it's got a thick layer of dust on it and massive cobwebs from each wing mirror.   I can't wash it now until we have some heavy rain to wash the dust/grit off first, I don't have a hosepipe.   Supposed to be showers here from late morning, it's very dull and overcast.

    Bloody mice coming back, I'm sure you'll soon get them all.

    That's great that they've named that route after you  :)


    I didn't sleep well last night either, food shop at 8pm which is a great time to go but I'm then wide awake at my normal bedtime, and although I go to bed an hour later than normal my sleep is worse than usual.  Never mind, I'll sleep when I'm tired enough.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, I have got a "Devon" section on the quiz.  I'll have a think about if I can do a DD-based one instead.

    Cal, well done on the Strava crown :)  
  • 1SteveMac1SteveMac ✭✭✭
    Cal - Well done on the CR.
    Ian - Superb pace, fingers crossed you get to race a marathon soon.
    Big G - I think they are both (MAF/HADD) quite similar tbh and does sound like people get some amazing results with MAF running. I used to work at the same company as Larisa Dannis (although she was based in the USA), who ran a 50 miler at 7:11 min/mile pace, and she trained using the MAF method.
    Anyway, another 5 miles today (9:32 pace for 117 bpm average), felt super easy. But I know there is loads of progress to make if easy pace can hit MP+60/90 seconds!!
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Steve, I think MAF is more "basic" in some ways as basically everything is at the one HR.  I still haven't quite decided how/when to introduce a small amount of speed work, as it doesn't seem to be mentioned.  I think I may play it by ear - I really enjoy the 5x1k efforts so I may just do those once a week or once a fortnight and see how I get on, but again not for a few weeks yet anyway.

    You're right, there are some amazing stories out there from normal runners, to people who are elites.  I hadn't really heard of him as it's not an area I'm that interested in, but apparently a chap called Mark Allen was the best there was at Ironman back in the day (6 time world champion), and he ended up training to MAF.  Early in his career he was of the "no pain no gain" mindset, but got injured, run down etc.  He said that in every single session, there was always a bit where he was either at or quicker than race pace, but then met Maffetone.  He said originally Maffetone got him running at 8:30min/miles at MAF, which to him was slow, but after a couple of years he was running at 5:30s.  Amazing really.  But even more normal runners get great results if they can stick to it.  For me, I've kept it really strict but I have seen a lot of people don't mind if they go a few beats over, but then I wonder if they're really getting the benefit?  Maybe 4 or 5 beats over doesn't make much difference - I don't know - but I've been really strict, which still mean walking on occasion.  I have been lucky though I think because based off my Max HR, my 142 is right in that aerobic zone so there was no confusion for me, whereas for others their MAF rate doesn't really correspond with their Max HR in terms of finding the right training pace.  But then I wonder whether those people really know their Max HR and so aren't basing the comparison on the right data?  I also don't know what to do when I get a year older as I suppose in theory I should reduce the MAF HR but then on the other hand I'm pretty sure my Max HR won't have changed.  But I'll keep doing what I'm doing for now.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Steve - that's a great run from you today.

    My easy pace is now about the same pace as my best marathon pace last year.  :o

    Big G - from what I gathered reading Maffetone's book you work towards getting your running down to the lower end of your MAF HR, so I think yours is 132 to 142?  He said running at top end of MAF rate will start to feel too fast.  At that stage you can do intervals running at lower end and allowing interval pace up to top end.

    But as you mention such as with Mark Allen it's a long period running at MAF rate, months going into several years.

    Same with Hadd I would think to achieve absolute best would be 2 years maybe even 5 years.

    Don't do anything when you get a year older.  My MHR is probably only 2 BPM lower than when I did a test in 2003.  Remember your MAF HR is only an estimate anyway so no reason to alter it.

    It's much more accurate to run to MHR % than MAF, if I'd tried to run to MAF rate when I started HR training my MAF rate would have been 77 to 83% so I would have been training too fast and wouldn't have made the progress that I did at the time.

    But as you say many that say they're running to MAF or Hadd rates don't stick to the HR rated, I've seen so many saying "I allow a few extra BPM as it's hot/hilly/club run/ etc" which is fine but it's not HR training and they won't get the results, but that's their choice.

    Had a lovely walk in the rain.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, I have to say if I didn't know what my Max HR was I think I would have initially thought that my MAF pace was way too slow.  So I'm glad I had the Max HR as a check.  It is funny though as the runs are still a work out in terms of that I come home sweaty and know I've been for a run, even at the low intensity.  But I feel a lot fresher generally too, hence being able to do around 60-miles a week more consistently than usual.

    That's brilliant that your easy pace is now roughly the same as what your marathon pace was!
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big G - yes, you're fortunate that you know your MHR so can see that your MAF rate is a good calculation for you.

    Big_G said:
    That's brilliant that your easy pace is now roughly the same as what your marathon pace was!
    Yes, in theory but as I haven't run further than 13 miles in training it's unlikely I could hold that pace for marathon distance.  Well maybe with massive cardiac drift and a tough second half.

    Incidentally my next scheduled marathon is the 5th July and I checked this morning and they're still taking entries so they must have some confidence that the event might go ahead.   Ironically if the event does go ahead I'll have to drive up on the day as I've booked into a guest house and they won't be open by then, I haven't cancelled the a accommodation yet.

    I'm also due to fly to Dublin on the 20th of this month but if I look at the airline website and Manage my booking, still shows the flight as live but if I go to bookings they're all sold out, which they're not, they've just not flying.  They have offered me a free transfer or a voucher but not told me it's cancelled as legally I am eligible for a refund then.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, regarding your comment at doing my intervals at my MAF pace (142, as you say) that seems a long way off at the moment.  However, I have been keeping an eye out for long, shallow downhill sections where sometimes I feel I'm flying down and where I am running quite quickly at 140-142, so I may well make use of those.  I think I'll just have to see where I am in a few weeks and decide what to do.

    The other day though I was almost itching to go and race a 5k really hard, but I contained myself!  The plan is still to go through June doing only running at this MAF rate, and then possibly introducing something quicker in July but I'll decide nearer the time.

    Anyway, as it was so much fresher this afternoon I went out for a really nice 6-miler at 4pm, which only a couple of days ago would have been too hot for me.  A mainly flat route and I was ticking along quite nicely for a lot of it, so it was an enjoyable run out.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades-I am entered for Chester,but hoping not to do it as we are due to be in LA then,it was deferred from May.
    Which is the race on the 5th?Excellent work on the paces.
    Big G-I think you'll come out of this really improved.
    9 miles after work,took it easy after yesterday but all good,slight soreness in the left calf so will watch that.
    I seen the final results for the BMC 1k challenge and one of our teams of 6 won,they averaged 92% wava!!! Must be skewed heavily in favour of youngsters as that is ridiculous.

  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    Big G - I’ve also kept MAF training very strict and only averaged 2bpm over on one run. There are small elevations on my routes that I don’t walk where I often go 4-5bpm over MAF for a minute or two but I’m assuming that’s fine. Then there’s inconsiderate cyclists and dogs off their leach of course where it goes well above that due to irritation!

    First run in four days this evening as was basically bedridden from what I think was a nasty bout of food poisoning. No idea what from as usually I get it from shellfish which we haven’t had. My OH came down with something similar a day after I did but with a fever. She has been participating in a covid study where you just update your health status every couple of days via app and they are therefore automatically sending her a test. Her fever has passed and the fact that it was short and included the same stomach issues as myself makes me think there’s little chance it’s covid. Anyway took the run very easy at a couple bpm below MAF and was good to get back at it. Annoying though as was ramping up mileage nice and steady prior to this. 
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