Shades Marathon Training



    Ian - yes, plus no training of new drivers during the pandemic has added to the shortage problem.    

    Well she'll still be on for a PB so there's no need to put herself under too much pressure.   A first marathon is about learning to deal with the distance, gives the mental confidence for subsequent marathons.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Robert, it'll be interesting to see how you get on at the duathlon.  Yours is similar to the distances I did and I surprised myself at how hard I found the 5k!  Having said that, I did enjoy the one I did, and I know what you mean about trying something a bit different.

    Ian, sounds like your OH is pretty much ready then, and great to read she's excited about it.

    Cal, I'm not usually that early, but I just couldn't sleep so decided to get on with it.

    Shades, I was over-optimistic that the newer HR sensors would be better, but sadly not.  The Garmin Pay will be handy on those (admittedly rare...) days when I'm out all day on the coast path, and fancy an ice cream, or pasty, somewhere :)  The plus point from my point of view is that it doesn't need a mobile signal to work.  If we ever get to go away again I can really see me using the map feature.  Obviously I wasn't lost today, but I tested it to say "take me home", and it didn't just retrace the route I'd done, but chose the fastest route back, which is handy if I'm in a place I don't know.  Would also be handy if I do an LDWA event again too, and the battery life is very good also.  You can also tell it do do a 6-mile loop (for example), and it'll choose a route for you, again handy if I'm away.

    Just back from my jab.  Loads of kids in there today, mostly getting dropped off by their Mums.  I felt very ancient, probably the oldest one in there today.
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    edited June 2021
    Big G - The maps feature is great isn’t it. It’s so convenient to be able to track new routes with no faff.I didn’t know you could plot random routes directly from it though, I’ve just downloaded them from Strava/Garmin connect to the watch. I’ve yet to set up Garmin pay on the other hand since I always run with my phone so couldn’t be bothered. 

    Ian - I’m excited for your OH’s race report. Her taper madness does bring back very recent memories for me. 

    Rest day today as legs feel heavy and want to freshen them for 5k tomorrow. Shame as beautiful out. I have signed up for Hampton court half in February hopefully as a tune up for March mara. I have 3 halves on the calendar now for the next 8 months. Want to do a bunch of 5-10ks too but they are easier to add as and when. 
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    I love Hampton Court, it's a great race. (Though Harry Hawkes isn't that different...and nor is Kingston. But I've enjoyed them all). I'll probably join you for it.
    Big G - as yet I've not seen any GPS watch say that their wrist HRM is better/more accurate than any other watch.   So maybe that means that the technology just isn't there, for now, or maybe never.   Perhaps searching for a more comfortable chest strap is the answer for now.

    I have visions of you going out for a long run and eating your way around the SWCP, pasties, ice cream, chips, bacon sandwiches etc. 😏

    I'd never use a map feature, wouldn't be able to see it without my reading glasses for a start.🤓   I rarely run off road anyway and I quite like exploring new routes, not really being sure where I am is all part of it.  I did get lost doing my recovery run in Frankfurt, but I just asked a bloke for directions.

    Good news on the jab, hope you have no after effects.

    Rcouture - good you're lining up a few races, not tempted by an autumn marathon yet?

    Gym was good.   My instructor that has been so good and helpful to me no longer works at the leisure centre, no surprise really, it's not well paid and he couldn't get the hours to suit.   I'm disappointed, but as I said not surprised.   So from the remaining staff, they're not all back from furlough yet, I've been carefully watching them and have selected a replacement to help me.   This one is a powerlifter, last one was a boxer, anyway he's going to give me some new exercises tomorrow.  😊
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    Shades - I am very tempted to run one in autumn especially as the last 18 months have shown it’s worth taking opportunities to run when I can. But I think I would benefit from focusing on training for shorter distances and getting faster. I’m not particularly interested in just racking up marathon numbers yet, but mainly just improving so happy to wait and have a longer lead time to a race in the spring. Also the 3 hour weekend long runs are tricky with two toddlers so have to be judicious with them!
    Rcouture - re your next marathon, that makes sense.   You had to wait such a long time to finally get to the start line of your first marathon and you had a great race, so job done.   

    Good luck for tonight, can't help with any racing strategy as I've never run a 5k  :)

    7 miles today, today's route used to be one of my flat routes, but as I'm avoiding the evil seagull at B & Q I take a diversion which typically for Devon adds in a hill and another 150ft to the overall elevation, but it's a nicer route passing some nice houses on quiet roads.   That's the only seagull I'm avoiding, the others I take a chance with.  :)

    Gym later
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Shades/Rcouture, my usual technique for a 5K (including parkrun) is go out hard and try to hang on. If I'm having a good day I will...if not, I'll blow up and end up having to grit my way to the finish. But I've had all my fastest 5 and 10Ks by starting too fast. :lol:

    Shades, a powerlifter will be interesting. I never did that competitively (aside from a bench press competition...which I won) as I couldn't squat properly. I still can't squat properly. I loved benching and was able to pull over 100kgs for a deadlift, though I stopped doing that in my early 40s as I realised I was just going to wreck my back. I don't have great mechanics and I already messed up my rotator cuff through constant heavy lifting. Anyway...

    Today was an experiment of sorts...went out without coffee first and ran as slowly as I could (between 12 and 13 min/mi) to see if I could keep my HR below 140. The answer was no. (Obviously this is a watch not a chest strap, so not as accurate, but it is pretty consistent.  I've only ever used the watch and I don't think I've ever managed to get it below 140 except for the first mile when I'm warming up. It's usually over 150 for a normal easy run and much higher at pace).
    Anyway, despite beautiful weather, I didn't enjoy running this slowly - my bodyparts didn't seem to like it much either because there were a few aches and grumbles. I wouldn't be able to do Maf as I'd need to keep HR in the 120s...which is walking. And well, I walked all the time I was injured and that didn't help lower my HR when I started running again. Anyway, I am fairly happy running 11s for my very easy runs so I think I will stick with that and not worry about HR.
    Cal - the guy at the gym is not going to teach me any powerlifting stuff, it just happens that he is a powerlifter.   He does compete, he mentioned European Championships that he had taken part in and he is training for a competition in December, he already has every training session written out up until then, even more obsessive than marathon training!  :o

    I wouldn't dismiss HR training because you think you can't run at low heart rates, you don't know if your HRM is recording 20+bpm all the time.   But something like MAF training might be the answer to those niggles that you seem to have all the time.      Many runners switch to HR/base training as they find they are continually getting injured using other methods and with a good spell of HR training are able to go on and run more PB's and are not plagued with continual injuries.   But if it's not for you, then that's fine, we all can choose how we want to train and we need to enjoy what we do. 
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, sounds like you had a nice run out there.

    Cal, I did my rotator cuff in a couple of years ago now.  Ouch!

    I'm not feeling 100% so I've decided not to do today's Team Time Trial on Zwift.  I don't feel too bad about dropping out as I did tell the organisers in advance about my vaccine, so they knew I may not race when they were allocating the teams.  I feel mainly okay, but I'm sneezing (that's possibly nothing at all to do with the vaccine), but the main issue is that I have what feel like hollow legs and aching joints (both very mild).  RHR is fine, but these sessions are very, very tough so I just felt it was better not to race today as I just know I'm not quite firing on all cylinders.

    OH and I have been doing a lot of research over the last few months, but we've put a deposit down on a camper van!  I saw loads, test drove a handful, but kept coming back to this one, so we went for it.  It's a Renault Trafic "pop top", converted from new which is unusual, and with the top up I can stand up in it, it sleeps 4 (99% of the time it'll just be me, OH and Tigg), it's got a front swivel passenger seat, heating, plenty of storage.  It hasn't got a shower, but that was a purposeful decision to not get one, as generally speaking we'd stay on sites with facilities, and showers tend to come in the much larger motorhomes, which we didn't want.  I had a camper van years ago and I had a lot of fun in it, but we got rid of that one as it was becoming uneconomical to keep on the road.  This one is a 66-plate and has only done 11000 miles, so fingers crossed it'll be reliable and we'll have some good times in it.  On the test drive, it was as easy as driving a normal car, whereas my old one was like a physical workout to steer, change gears, brake etc!  They've come a long way!  We've booked our first trip away for the day we pick it up, just to a site out 90-mins away on Dartmoor to get used to it, so should be good.  We've lots of plans involving European jaunts, Scotland, The Lakes etc, but all in good time over the coming years hopefully, and I'd imagine there may even be a trip to a marathon or two :)  Tigg is going to be a well travelled's all for him, you see ;)  
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Shades - yeah, I'm not dismissing it entirely but I have always run by effort rather than HR (neither of my old watches had the HRM anyway, so I've only really been aware of my HR for the last year). I think I'd need to find my actual max HR rather than use the MAF formula which puts my training zone well below what I manage even on the slowest runs. I've heard HADD is something like 5K pace plus three that about right? That'd put me at 11 minute miles which is usually what I do for my slower runs.
    Big G,  yes - my ROM on the left side is very poor. Part of the reason I don't swim.
    I'm sure Tigg will enjoy those adventures.
    Big G - the whole world are buying camper vans at the moment, but with Covid around it makes good sense.    

    Did you have Pfizer vaccine?   If so I've seen folk say more aftereffects from the 2nd dose than first, other way around for AZ.

    Cal - yes, 5k pace + 3 minutes but that's for those that can't do a MHR test really or those that aren't prepared to do the slow bit at the start of the training.    I don't know anyone that achieved much by using that method, probably as they don't have the patience to put the work in for the first couple of months.   I assume that's current 5k pace so not necessarily PB pace.     Ideally 70-75% of MHR is base pace for Hadd training.    If you don't have an HRM you wouldn't be able to progress nor measure your progress to continue past that initial 5k+3 min pace.   The whole point of HR training is that you can record the progress you make by being able to faster at the same HR and/or run the same pace at a lower HR.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited June 2021
    Shades, yes, I've had Pfizer.  I'll be going for a walk a bit later as it hasn't knocked me out by any means, I'm just not quite up for a tough race.  Yes, campers/motorhomes have become very popular, but I'm happy with what we've got and the price we paid etc.  I know there is one local place that I avoided as they're overpriced (I've heard this from a few people over the years), but I was happy with the place we bought from.

    Cal, just to chime in on the HR training, when I started last May I had to walk a lot too.  Any incline, even the slightest, and my HR would go over the top of my range.  Even on slopes that I've literally raced up in half marathons I had to walk.  I still have to walk the steeper climbs, although I did relax that a bit when I was training for DD, as I knew I'd have to run inclines in that race and I just felt it was good practice, but that was after a few months of MAF.  It's tough, as it's very easy to mull over the stats and it is a change in thought process, but you have to try and forget about pace entirely when out if you want to do the HR training.  The pace is what it is and will probably change from day-to-day, but you know the effort is correct regardless of the pace.  Also, from my experience and echoing what Shades said it's a waste of time thinking about HR with the wrist sensors.  I've had it when they've read 20 beats too low and 20 beats too high , so they're a total waste of time in my experience, even on my shiny new, near top of the range watch.  It's not just that they're inaccurate, but they also don't respond quickly enough to a change in effort.  I did make sure the watch was tight and the sensor in the right place etc, but still no good for me at all.  I don't usually comment Cal as you're right you have to do what is right for you, but I was really just saying that it was very frustrating at the start for me, but I've seen improvements....they just don't happen all that quickly.  Even now I get frustrated as I have bad runs, and in fact it seems I've slowed right down after DD, but I know I'm in the right zone so I'm not too bothered at this stage.
    edited June 2021
    Cal - I take back what I said about the powerlifter.   He was great showed me some more exercises to do which is what I wanted.

    But he seems determined to get me to squat properly, so asked me to book in tomorrow and we're to do some work with the bar.

    I'm aching now from today's session.

    On the way to the gym I passed a doctor's surgery, paramedics doing CPR on a lady who had collapsed outside, didn't look too good.  Sobering sight.

    Big G - there'll be no stopping you travel wise now you've got the camper van.   I bet you're already planning lots of trips.
  • Shades elle gets them for working in a school although i did order myself some once and excellent service.  First duathalon, looking at past results I’ll be at the back of the results but not too concerned as there are triathlons on the same day so they won’t be waiting for me.

    Big g I also think I’ll struggle with the 5k at the end, think need to take calories on at transition and drink stations. Not sure what I’ll do to get my legs working. Bought some clipless pedals and fitted them to the bike and some shoes see how I go with them.  Looking forward to trying the fenix navigation! Elles dream is to get a camper van, probably given it more serious thought had I had had my fall and ruined my running.

    Rcouture good decision to hold off from rushing to do your 2nd marathon, 3 years ago I decided to focus on the half and 5km times and saw some improvement, glad I did before my injuries. The only advice I would give is don’t go like the clappers in the first 500meters for the 5k and blow your race early on.

    Cal I’ve never focused on hr and always used pace or run to feel.  I don’t think the tech would s reliable / accurate for hr.

    that sore throat has turned into full blown cold! Sniffling mess at the moment, hoping it doesn’t go to my chest.

    Elle’s gone for an internal job interview at her school today for sixth form manager, it will be a promotion at the same salary (moving to the next grade to potential to increase) but it’s term time only so will be a drop in pay.  We’re both in our last two years of our degrees and the new position will her become a teacher so could work well in the long term. 

  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Rcouture-I hate 5k,as we are marathon runners we forget 5k is still a decent distance,go way too fast,get to 1k realise this and then suffer for the last 4k,but it's only 20mins of pain so you can handle it.
    I've a slightly different position on HR training,before I got the HRM my easy runs were about 135 on my polar,with the HRM they are about 139 for the same effort,I wish I could use them both at the same time but can't see how.
    The watch did take longer to warm up,but over 10m+ the average wasn't much different,and it clearly would be no good on intervals etc,but overall it was pretty consistent.
    Robert - bad luck getting a cold, but now we're all mixing more I suppose those viruses are doing the rounds again.

    Good luck to Elle at her promotion interview.

    Ian - some do have similar stats from the optical and the HRM.   I suppose the only way to use both is to wear another watch and sync that with the HRM. 
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades-I didn't realise you could sync a garmin watch with a polar HRM so will give it a go after MK and see what the difference is.
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    edited June 2021
    Pretty crap outing for me as suspected. Went out too fast of course at around 6:20 for first mile. Blew up second mile and came in at 20:41. Admittedly it’s a PR but then again everything is for me at this stage (I’ve only ever done 1 other actual 5k race about 2 years ago when I started running which I think was in 26 mins). It’s strange as a few weeks before the marathon I did a 6*1 mile workout at this pace with just 2min jog in between which felt comfortable. Anyway with warmup and cooldown home it was a decent 8 miles today. Lots to work on and it underlines that I need to work on strength and speed before tackling a marathon again. First thing to do is to alternate tempo and intervals once a week and introduce some weight training I think. I do hate 5ks though, it’s just pain all the way through 😭.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    5+min PB is still a great improvement though, RCouture, and definitely more to come.  For quite a long while I "raced" a parkrun on quite a challenging course and experimented with all sorts of ways and, for me, being really dialled in to what I was capable of and going out at an even effort to try and leave something for a strong finish produced my best results.  But literally 15secs/mile too fast for the first mile and it was game over for me in that I lost more than those 15secs in the 2nd and 3rd miles.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    (I pressed "Post" too soon on my previous comment).

    Ian, interesting about the Polars.  I know Polar do an arm sensor which I think is optical (could be wrong) and people get good results with that I think.

    Robert, the other thing about a campervan is it's handy having a "van" I can access, for those bulky items.  I'm literally going to pick up some flooring today, along with a loo and sink, and shoving that in the back of OH's car won't be easy, but a van makes it easier.  Don't get me wrong, I won't use it to transfer rubble etc, but clean/boxed items the vans are ideal for.  That's one of the reasons we didn't go for a motorhome, as generally speaking they don't have doors that can open at the back.  Good luck to Elle for her interview, and hopefully you'll get rid of your cold soon.
    Rcouture - that's a huge PB, well done.   Don't be so hard on yourself, running a 'perfect' race is so very very hard.   And how you ran last night in a 5k does not meant that you need to work on speed and strength before your next marathon.   I just ran your 5km time through the calculator and that predicts a 3:17 marathon.   It's only 4 weeks since your marathon, you are still marathon fit.

    However, you're not selling the idea of doing my first 5km race to me.   ;)

    7 miles today, very hard run as I'm wrecked after the gym.   Put on my tightest compression tights and that did help my legs a bit but they are glycogen depleted so it was still a hard run.   Some light rain, very humid.   

    Gym later..😭
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    edited June 2021
    Big G - Yes I was totally not dialled in as didn’t do any race specific speedwork in the lead up. I just went out hard and paid for it. As you say, lots to work on. 

    Shades - Honestly I think 5ks are awful. 95% of it is just painful whereas at least with longer stuff the suffering is a smaller overall part of the experience. Will still keep at them though as I think they will help for marathons. Do you disagree? 

    Sadly I will always be hard on myself as that’s just a personality defect 😀. 

    Unplanned rest today as wanted to go out this morning but got limited sleep due to daughter feeling poorly with what I think is an ear infection. 
    Big G - I've heard the arm sensor HRM is better than the wrist but still has some time delay that the wrist does if doing intervals, changing of speed/hills etc.    I wonder why they've not really become popular, makes me think there's some other reason too.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Rcouture, the only slight problem with the approach I mentioned is that you can be left wondering ‘if I’d gone out slightly harder in the first mile or so, would I have got a better time overall?’. But on the other hand, if I go out too hard and slow to a death march, I know I could have gone quicker if I’d been more sensible in the first mile. So I can end up wondering ‘what if?’ regardless. Such is the nature of these things :)
    Rcouture - all types of races are good for marathon training.   Racing teaches us a lot about ourselves, going too fast, going too slow, how to try and pull things back if not going to plan, mentally and physically and to deal with our expectations and sometimes the disappointments too. 
    Specifically as a race distance longer races would help more ( 10 miles, half marathons, even a 20 mile race) as more emphasis on holding pace over a long time.   

    I expect everyone to be self critical but I just think you were a little harsh with yourself.  That was only your 2nd 5km race remember.   If you had tried to do specific speedwork so soon after your marathon you could easily have got injured so you did the right thing and focus on the recovery from the marathon as your priority.

    Hope your daughter is OK.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Rcouture-That is a good time and a nice improvement,just means you can get another PB soon.Personally I wouldn't worry too much about 5k specific work,I got 17:35 2 years ago,off purely marathon training,at our level just consistent high miles will get the times down well.
    Weather keeps changing for Sunday,looks OK again today but looked bad yesterday,must be passing thunder and they can't decide if it will hit.
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    Ian - 17:35 is just an incredible time. 

    My issue is that when I start running at these paces, they are so alien to me due to mainly training at MAF and the occasional tempo that my brain is just shouting at me that something is very wrong and that we should stop this nonsense asap. As such I figure that the occasional speedwork will just help mentally more than anything. 
    Ian - I looked at MK forecast this morning and looks like it might be fairly humid for you and OH.   However, at this time of year it could easily have been 30 degrees and humid too so I think for the time of year it won't be too bad.
    Hope OH enjoys her bagel today  :)

    Rcouture - that's why lots of races are good as helps getting used to running faster than training.   It's very hard to replicate race paces in training.   But if you join a club then running speed sessions in company will mentally feel much easier and you will get used to it too, so racing short races won't feel such a shock, will still be hard though.   ;)
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    RCouture, one approach that some others do is to just race regularly at different distances, and use those as speed work, and to practice what works and doesn't.  But I know exactly what you mean about the paces feeling alien; I did a couple of virtual events for my tri club last year and had no real idea what pace to go at for them, but once I'd done a couple I knew where I was fitness-wise and then went and got a 5K PB at an official event.  I think the thing we don't always appreciate is that the speed is there (presuming we're not recovering from a marathon or injured etc), it's just that we're not sure it is there as we've been doing MAF for so long, and translating MAF pace to race pace personally I don't find an easy to do.  But the speed is there.  I know what you mean though; personally I love the old classic 5x1k intervals but I don't do them that often really.  If you join Chasers and they do a session like that, you may find yourself in a group and you can really push on.  It varies for different people, but if you can do 5x1k at a consistent pace (obviously tiring towards the end, but holding on to that pace), it's very likely you can then beat that in a race situation with the adrenaline and competition etc.
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