Shades Marathon Training

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  • mamafoxmamafox ✭✭✭
    Iain - I need to go and lie down for a bit after reading what you've ben up to. Well done seems a bit of a feeble thing to say in the face of all that.. but.. well done!

    Thank you for all your lovely comments, I will keep updating things and try not to bring a downer on the thread.

    Shades - I have actually been following the thread, my stubbornness bordering on obsessiveness (Both useful traits for marathon running I feel!) not letting me miss a post even if that involved a couple of monster catch ups, but due to absolutely no running I've been flailing around for something to say. I mean, I could witter on about other stuff but at the end of the day this is a running forum and not about, I don't know, dogs or anything.
    Regarding dogs(!) I have actually bought a GPS tracker for Charlie. It's called "Weenect" and I think you can get them in the UK as well. It's not great, I think the coverage is 2G or something and when we are in the forest the feedback is very intermittent indeed. However, if he did go AWOL again then I'm hoping it would at least give us some idea of the general direction he'd gone in as we really didn't have a clue where to start looking when he disappeared. 
    To cement his legend status, he'd only been back 4 days when he attacked a ragondin (Bit like a beaver I think, translates as coypu but that doesn't mean anything to me either) who had dared to stray onto the path behind us. There was an awful fight which ended up in me going back down to the vets for staples into bites on his side and treatment for a ripped ear. Honestly.
    Yes, the family are all well thank you. Youngest son is in his last year of primary school now, next up is doing his Bac next year (Allegedly.. I have seen no evidence of any work whatsoever mind you), eldest son seems to be doing enough to hang on in with his apprenticeship and my daughter has finished her degree and decided to stay in Spain. She is now living and working in Alicante. I actually had a flight from Paris on Saturday to go and see her but there was a problem with my passport.. don't ask.. I'm already going wildly off subject here.

    I know this is a bit of a large question but how have you stayed pretty much injury free after all your years of marathon running?  Do you think it has something to do with your shoe habit and the fact that you keep changing them? Cross training? But then I seem to remember when you were working you didn't/couldn't do that much gym work.. Or maybe it's your genes? You just keep on going! I can't believe it will be your 400th marathon next year, what an achievement.

    Big G - I think I am going to be doing more cycling when I eventually recover and you've really got me interested in Zwift. I am going to Google it all (School holidays now so I've got a bit of time) but on a basic note have you got two proper racing bikes, one which you use on the road and the other which you set up with your computer at home? Or do you have to buy a special Zwift bike?

    Cal - Thank you so much for that Mimi Anderson info. I am ashamed to admit I had never even heard of her. Her story looks amazing and I am going to buy those two books when I get paid at the end of the month.
    I need some inspiration!

  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    mamafox, I'd like to know that too! I do notice Shades takes time off when something starts hurting - a lot of us are guilty of not doing that until we have to. But that aside, I still find it remarkable. I get banged up a lot and I run fewer miles and haven't done more than three marathons in a year, so I do think some bodies are better able to deal with running than others.

    Speaking of...my ham tendon is no worse for my run/walk yesterday, but the core muscle/SI joint I originally injured in the gym is now sore again. I used my Theragun and did a lot of stretching (and some core work in the gym this morning) but had a pretty restless night because of it. That said, it is not remotely as bad as it was originally. I will, however, ask my physio for advice.

    Rob - I will come and do Jersey Farm even if I have to limp around with the tail walker. :)
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    MF, you can get turbos that you put a road bike on, which is what I have (there are two types of these - "wheel on", and "direct drive"), or a whole bike set up which are just for indoor training and can't be used outside (more pricey).  I only have one bike, which is a standard road bike.  When I first joined Zwift, I had an old "wheel on" turbo trainer in the garage, where the rear wheel/tyre is in contact with the turbo trainer.  This was okay but my rear wheel/tyre kept on slipping even with a turbo tyre, so I upgraded to a "direct drive" turbo trainer, where you take the rear wheel off the bike, and then the bike attaches to the turbo trainer (for this, the gears on the turbo trainer need to the the same as the gears on the wheel that has been taken off the bike, otherwise you wont be able to change gears when the bike is on the turbo).  I am really happy with what I have got, but if it ever breaks I think I would get a whole bike set up, but they can be pricey.  Here is an article explaining some of the differences between wheel on and direct drive.
    https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/product-news/wheel-on-vs-direct-drive-turbo-trainers-463639

    In the Spring I was thinking about getting a new road bike and keeping my current/only bike on the turbo all the time, but actually I didn't ride the bike outdoors all summer, and any cycling I did was on Zwift (I did do a duathlon in April, but the bike hasn't been on the road since then).  I just prefer Zwift, which is why if my current turbo ever breaks, I would probably invest in a whole bike set up.

    Popular brands in no particular order are Wahoo, Elite and TacX, and certainly Wahoo and TacX do all of the above (not sure if Elite do a whole bike).  Another popular make, who I don't think do a turbo trainer but do a whole bike setup, is the Atom Wattbike. 
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big G - re RED, that's good news, I didn't like the parking and it would certainly put me off doing an event in the winter.

    mamafox - I hope Charlie's tracker will help if he goes AWOL again.   Jack Russell's are fearless so no surprise that he had a run in with that ragondin, (I just googled it).

    Can't believe how fast the family are growing up, where does the time go.

    Re staying injury free.   I haven't stayed injury free, my race history is littered with DNS's and cancelled flights/trips etc.   But I think I am fortunate that so far I've not had an injury that I could recover from without surgery or long term recovery.   As Cal mentions, I do back off if I get a niggle, i.e. if I have the slightest twinge in my achilles then my next race would be cancelled and training curtailed, I've seen too many runners lose months/years with achilles injuries.
    I think it's partly luck, a lot to do with my multiple brands of running shoes, recovery runs, avoiding damaging allegedly rehab like the foam roller and probably most important building a strong base.   Many think a strong base is developing the aerobic system, it is, but it also strengthens the muscles/ligaments/joints etc and that prevents injury.   I also avoid speedwork, for me it's not necessary and would be the easiest way to get injured.    Definitely nothing to do with cross training, if you want to run better then run more.   I didn't do any gym stuff when I was working, bearing in mind the last 20 years of my working life I was totally focussed on marathons/ultras and I always had a full time plus one or two part time jobs.   Now I'm older and have the time I have been doing strength training and it definitely helps with injury prevention.  But injury does happen to us all.   


    Cal - that's promising re the hamstring.

    Pilates was tough but I survived.   There's a new class starting next week which is just stretching, I might give that a go.
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    Big G - Out of curiosity what would be the advantage of a whole bike setup for you at this stage? I am still thinking through setups to keep things ticking over and not go insane if I get a running injury lay-off. Hate cycling on London streets and have little interest in cycling gadgetry so have been thinking about a watt bike as it also seems simple and more compact?

    Shades - That is fascinating especially re the achilles. I am a heavy foam roller user 😬. How long have you been doing low HR/low intensity stuff and is that part of it when you talk about the base?

    5 miles this morning. Crap sleep again which I think is due to my changeable wake up times and routines with the hybrid work model so need to work out some solutions for that. 5 miles home later. 
  • Ian, Hope you get the months of training you deserve to get you back into shape.  Hope the pf stays away for good or is manageable.

    Rcouture, I tend to have a couple of tablets the day before.  Thinking back to Manchester I started off with a tablet in a bottle and then another half way, gels at mile 5,9,13,17,21 and a couple of bottles of water at mile 6 and 15ish.  Not ideal drinking tablets and gels.  At Dorney I trialled a mix of the tablets and tailwind but that was too much and was gagging for water!  Haven't heard anyone taking the tablets whole, they are quite big.

    Iain that's a busy year, congrats on the 100miler and the 50 miler sounds insane!  A lot of people have suffered with their mental health and glad you are in a better place now.

    Shades the calves screamed at me 2 weeks before the 50 miler which was before back in the office, may need to focus on some s&c.

    Rest day today, ankle is a bit sore but hopefully its just some bruising coming out.  I decided to get a couple of bits from Subsports, cant go wrong, they also emailed me a 10% off on top and left items in a basket.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    RCouture, the main problem I have is one of maintenance. Riding indoors can generate a lot of sweat and road bikes don’t tend to like that, particularly around the gears and any bolts that hold the handlebars on for example (if I started using it outdoors again I’d want to replace the bolts first as they are badly corroded, even though I have a guard covering them). Also, my road bike only has 2x9 gears and Wattbike has 2x11 I think. My set up is totally fine and I never run out of gears going down hill, but I could occasionally do with a lower gear going up hill (I have this issue outdoors too). I’m not going to replace it until something breaks though, and at the time I bought it I was wary of paying out on something that may not get much use. As it is though, I’ve kept Zwift going all year so I’m not so worried about that now. I think I’d go for either a Wattbike or possibly the Wahoo bike if I did upgrade.  
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Rcouture -  Yes, low HR training is what I mean by base training.

    I think it was about 2004 that I started HR training.   I'd been doing a fair few marathons and ultras up until then but once I'd done a few months base training the races become so much easier and recovery was quicker too.

    Robert - are you talking about electrolyte tablets (salt tablets) or tabs that you dissolve on water to make an electrolyte drink?

    Can you recall what you did that set your calves off before your 50 miler?

    Hard to resist the SubSports stuff at those prices.

    Big G - there must be some way of sweat proofing your bike, isn't there?  😅

    Just home from the dentist, trying to drink a cup of coffee with a teaspoon until the numbness wears off 💉
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, it doesn't look particularly professional, but this is the best I can come up with.  It is a guard to cover the bolts on the handlebars, and a good old towel wrapped around the tube to catch the worst of any sweat.  I can also put a phone in the guard to control Zwift if I want to, which I do on long group rides, but otherwise don't bother.  This doesn't solve the issue totally, but does help.  And fans!  Fans are very important, and I have the window wide open too. 
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big G - must be difficult as so easy to raise a sweat when inside.

    I was thinking more of a good layer of WD-40.  😉
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    Shades - Sorry to belabour the question but what do you do after a long/tough run or if you’ve a knot somewhere if you don’t use a roller/massage? Stretch?

    5 miles home. Left early at 5:45ish so running through central London was a bit of a hassle with tourists. 
  • Shades they are the tabs you put in water, I’ve just had a look and they also do capsules that you take with water. RE Calfs the only common dominator was the distance of run the day before but different shoes and have ran longer (Dorney) and no issues.  It may just be dehydration related? My calves were a lot worse last time and was struggling to walk, this time just feel a bit tight.

    hoping ankle is less sore tomorrow will test with a short run 
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Rcouture - I don't ever recall having a knot after a run/race.   If my legs are tired I might have a very gentle stretch and a bath of course, a walk later would help too, although I probably rarely do that.    Not sure attacking sore legs with a foam roller after a run is beneficial at all, although the fashion is to tell you to do so.   If you do use the foam roller it would need to be very, very, gently.


    Robert - yes I thought you meant the tabs to put in water, not sure if Rcouture wasn't talking about salt tablets.   I looked at the salt tablets from Precision a while ago, but they were very expensive.  

    Re calves, I sometimes get tight calves and have put it down to the gym stuff I was doing at the time.   Hope you find out what it is that causes it as it's a horrible feeling.


    Rest day for me today, gym later.   Upper body today which is just as well as I now have DOMS from Monday's leg session.   Think I maybe aggravated getting DOMS by tensing my muscles when in the dentist's chair, must remember not to do that next time.   
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big G - have you tried out your new shoes from the US yet?

    Email from Runner's Need about Karhu another brand to hit the UK market, anyone know anything about them, they look good, I've never heard of them before.

    Karhu Collection | Price Match + 3-Year Warranty | Runners Need
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, I haven't tried them yet.  When I next do I session I will probably wear them if the conditions are good - I don't want to get them wet/dirty of course :smiley:   I haven't heard of those shoes as yet.

    I have done about 4hrs of Zwifting over the last couple of days, which has been good.  I have a Team Time Trial on Thursday, which will be my first one for a while, so quite looking forward to that although it'll be approximately 45mins of pain!  10 miles on a usual route of mine this morning.  Not particularly cold, although blustery in parts, but I had a good run out.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big G - it's not the weather for new white shoes.  But your shoes look like they would clean up well, unlike the fabric that we have on a lot of shoes now.

    I've since read a couple of review of the Karhu shoes and they seem good, for high mileage too, I saw in one review up to 800 miles.

    You're doing very well on your Covid recovery, let me know if you have any marathons planned for the year.    I'm sure Davey will find you a place  ;)
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    Shades - Yes I meant the salt tablets/capsules from Precision hydration rather than the effervescent stuff for drinks. Re the foam roller, I find it helpful if I’ve a tight spot to go over it in the evening. I have been thinking of switching to a massage gun however as it’s usually localised rather than an overall massaging that I need. 

    Excitingly I have bought new shoes. The NB fresh foam more v3. They are max cushioned plodders, basically the 1080 v10/11 with more midsole. Although I am happy with my current rotation, what has been missing has been something super soft for days when legs are knackered and recovery runs. They are also lower drop (4mm) which is good as my long run/race/workout shoes are higher drop. Was hoping this slot would have been taken by the invincibles but those were too unstable and bouncy so hoping these fit the bill. Arriving Thursday. 

    5 miles this morning into work. Ive realised after the club session tomorrow I won’t have taken a rest day for 15 days straight so definitely taking one Friday. 
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Rcouture - you certainly deserve a rest day.

    I've got a pair of NB Fresh Foam More and they are lovely shoes, very comfy, like putting on a plush pair of slippers.  For me I prefer a slightly higher drop for distance so I don't run over 8-10 miles in them.   
  • mamafoxmamafox ✭✭✭
    Big G - You are a star, thank you for all that info. Much clearer now. Definitely going to be a goal for me to get started on Zwift. Just need to sort our finances out first, bit dodgy at the moment. We're counting down to next April when the house will finally be paid for and we will be mortgage free  :)

    Shades - That all made a lot of sense. I think the best running I ever did was when I got started on base training. Absolutely loved it. Suited me down to the ground and really enjoyed every minute of my training, seeing the positive results in races was just a bonus!
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Mamafox - not long until mortgage free, that will make such a difference to your life.   I can still remember when I paid mine off.

    You did so well with your Maffetone training, it suited you so well and you had great success with your marathon times.

    How is your job now? 
  • mamafoxmamafox ✭✭✭
    Shades - Yes, it will make a massive difference, can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel.

    Work is much calmer as one of our classes has been closed and they've regrouped the younger children to another village school. We have only one class now, CM1 and CM2 together which I'm not sure what the equivalent is in the UK... top two junior classes I guess - Prep 4 and 5 in my era :D. Together the two classes make up only 19 children (my 10yo being one of them). We have a fabulous maîtresse and a great group of children so I can't complain at all. Compared to last year where we had around 45 children plus some real "cases" in the class this year is much easier. The only fly in the ointment is an enthusiastic village counsellor who wants to make my menus more adventurous. As I look at it, the children are fed and nobody has complained so there is no point in reinventing the wheel. She made me put a vegetarian paella on the menu last week, I told her that I had never cooked a paella and didn't want to experiment on the school children and staff so would she come into the kitchen and show me how it's done. She did and, to my satisfaction it was a complete disaster so hopefully that's put her off for a bit B)
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Mamafox - being mortgage free will remove a level of stress that you don't realise was there until it's gone.   No more working for the bank  :)

    Your job sounds much improved except for the village counsellor.   Vegetarian paella sounds awful, not surprised the children didn't fancy that.

    Is your op next week just day surgery or do you have to stay in hospital for a day or so?
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Mama-Just 6 more payments then,nice early age to be clear.If we hadn't moved we'd have been looking to be clear in the next couple of years,aiming for 6 now,we could go earlier but we enjoy all our holidays too much.
    7 miles after work,definitely feel the weather changing now,plan is complete for Cyprus,just need to get Barca done then couple of easy weeks then go again from the end of November. 
  • Ian - well done on 1:30 at RnR. I did the course in 2019 and found it hard - I found the start a bit twisty and hard to settle, and then immediately the big climb up Upper Parliament St.

    mamafox & Iain - hi! I’m xbraddersx (known in real life as Kathryn).

    all this talk about mortgages makes me feel very behind! I did a PhD in chemistry and then retrained in patent law so I’m not able to bug yet. Hopefully once I qualify. <div>
    </div><div>7 for me tonight just easy. It’s pretty dark in some of the suburban streets and the pavements are quite poor (roots and uneven) so I think I’ll have to slow down quite a bit compared to summer runs. Not that worried - I probably run on the faster side of easy anyway so could do with slowing down.

    club efforts for me last night - 5 x 1K with about a minute rest. Went out too fast 😩 on the first rep and paid for it every step after. I never do that on my own; so definitely something I need to watch for in races!! </div>
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Ian - so what's the outline of your Cyprus plan?

    bradders - there's plenty of time to saddle yourself with a mortgage.   It's not that we're all financially savvy that we're talking of paying off mortgages, more likely quite a bit older than you  ;)

    Our pavements round here are awful too, only a few new sections, usually new roads, that are good and I can run confidently in the dark.

    Going out too fast in a race or speed session for the first lap/mile is so easy, we all do it.


    8 miles this morning, nice morning but very strong headwind for the first few miles, it wasn't gusty just a relentless headwind, felt like a resistance session until I was in a more sheltered area.   Wore by NB FF More shoes, they're lovely but not a patch on the 1080's IMHO.

    Gym later, legs again.   My legs have hardly recovered from Monday's session yet. 
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    Ian - Similar to you we are also close to being mortgage free but are looking to move. Am hopeful it shouldn’t add too many years but my OH may disagree. 

    Bradders - Nice session and run. I always end up going too fast for club sessions

    5 miles home last night for another double day. Super slow as feeling tired. Will drop down a pace group for club session tonight as not got the legs for it. 
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    Shades - Which FF more do you have? The v3 (out this or last year I think) are softer than the older version which were too firm for me when I tried them in the shop 
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Rcouture - I don't know which version FFM I have, I bought them in 2020 so I'd guess V2.    I don't find them too firm for me, the fit for me is not as good as the 1080's, but they're still lovely shoes and comfy, good cushioning.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    It was the Team Time Trial today on Zwift.  I did 20mins warm up, the race (40mins) and then 30mins cool down, so 90-mins in total.  There were 6 of us in my team, but with potentially a couple of hundred teams taking part across different time zones, there is a lot of activity throughout the day.  My team included a couple of Aussies, an Irish lady and the rest Brits, and we were on Discord chatting (well, I wasn't chatting - it is too much effort for that!), but the DS knew the course really well so was telling us on Discord when to push, ease off slightly etc depending on the hills.  It is a really good workout and enjoyable being part of a team, with the idea being to start and finish together.  I am in a group called The Herd (who themselves have many teams), and the organisers put us in small teams of similar ability based on W/KG.   All being well I will try and do it next Thursday..
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