Gordon Pirie Book

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  • Mark, it is certainly fascinating and it would be interesting to hear what RW has to say on the subject, because if I follow their 'find the right shoe' guide as posted on this web site, I should be in motion control shoes and they actively warn me against buying racing shoes!

    As a beginner to the sport it really does surprise me that running form isn't addressed more often, my belief is that the heal strike is an easier action to adopt, especially if like me you enter the sport a bit out of condition, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is the correct approach!
    I also think that if like me you are on the heavier side (16st) and you run with a heel strike you should definitely wear the appropriately cushioned/supportive shoe. But as I am now down to 7min miling for 10k can I get away with a racing shoe, if I change my style? Where are the experts??
  • ChaosChaos ✭✭✭
    Difficult one that. Understandably most shops and online guides err on the side of caution and IMHO recommend more stability than you might normally need (except possibly when v.tired after a really long run).

    All I can suggest is going to a couple of different running shops in person. Ensure that they give you a fresh opinion rather than just assuming you pronate excessively because you said so on entering the shop or produced a pair of Motion Control shoes. How about the shops that have the Adidas footscan? And if you get video analysis make sure they crank it up to 7 m/mile pace before judging!

    Mark
  • Mark, Is an Adidas foot scan of any use if you front foot strike? Indeed can you even class peole as over/under pronators as doesn't this kind of analysis base itself around the motion of the foot from heel to ball and not ball to heel!!
  • ChaosChaos ✭✭✭
    Good point! I was really trying to think of the most neutral way of testing the motion of your foot and not letting any preconceptions based simply on your weight and/or old shoe-wear come into play. Although shoe-wear should be some sort of guide, you were asking about racing shoes so I reasoned that shoes used for slower runs might not give the right clues.

    I used a footscan thing in the Boots stall at the pre-London Marathon event and it seemed fairly sophisticated. I'd hope it was designed to cope with a forefoot strike as well. As far as I can see, the initial forefoot strike seems to be more to do with absorbing the landing shock. The heel does then still touch the ground prior to the toe-off so the whole thing becomes more of a ball-heel-ball-toe type motion (if I am understanding Gordon Pirie correctly). Therefore the actual propulsive phase will still consist of some heel to ball movement.

    Does this make any sense? Ultimately a sports podiatrist should probably be on hand to interpret the results but you won't be finding that in a shop.
  • Yes, what you are saying makes sense. I think seeking out further professional advice would be wise, the issue I have is one of injury, I have little doubt that it is a quicker way to run. I guess the only way to go about it is gradually and build up the strength in the areas required to properly run with a forefoot strike. Like everything else, take it slowly and listen to your body.
  • Having read the book again, it seems that if you under/over pronate, then moving to a forefoot strike would probably eliminate your problem. Leaving you free to purchase a good 'fast' running shoe with less support. Before I had my feet checked out in a specialist shop I was wearing 'neutral' shoes and pulled both hamstrings as I bulit up to the FLM. I then bought support trainers (Nike Air-Structure Triax) and haven't had any problems since. However it may have been my increased training that caused the injury rather than the shoes I was wearing. There's certainly an element of being 'blinded by science' with all the technology being thrown at you when buying a running shoe.
    p.s. When Pirie refers to a race Seb Coe ran where he got beat by Steve Cram, it's so unbelievably embarrassing. He reprimands 'Mr Coe' for not sticking to Cram in the early part of the race. Since Seb Coe is probably our greatest ever middle ditance runner I think Pirie's comments were way off-line. But he certainly provokes debate !
  • Dirt Tracker - Just because Coe was a great athlete, it doesn't mean he should be above criticism. Indeed he was very hard on himself at times. I remember that race and Mr Pirie is correct in his criticism of Coe's tactics. Most of us are not fast enough to worry about tactics - we merely run as fast as we can - but Coe was an experienced international who should of known better and was physically capable of going with Cram's pace. But he didn't. Of course we could start a debate about who was the greatest - Coe, Cram or Ovett. Coe just shades it for me, but it's a very close call.

    As for the book - I think it was written in an engaging and refreshing style - it is full passion if nothing else - and I've just started to read through it again. I've been running for 18 years and used to be reasonably useful (31 mins for 10k) - yet I've never come across this forefoot running idea. I've always been a heel striker, and to be fair I've never suffered any major injuries, but the book has certainly got me thinking.
  • Well who knows, Coe may have just had an 'off day', and he didn't suffer them often. I agree with your points, and I enjoyed the book. I certainly suspect the big shoe manufacturers of flooding the market place with every type of shoe imaginable to pursuade us we need 5 types of trainer for different races/surfaces etc. And I wouldn't buy off the major suppliers if I could find someone who didn't use 8 year old kids in Taiwan or wherever to make them in the first place !
  • Me again - just wanted to get something off my chest. I meant to write Coe "should HAVE known better" not "should OF known better". I'm being pedantic of course, but it's a particular grammatical error that really, really annoys me (even in these 'txt spk', internet, email times in which we live) and I always criticise others for doing it - I can't believe I did it myself!!!

    Now, back to the book...
  • And you call yourself Bazza ? Not the name of someone who is so particular about their grammer ?
  • Well I finally bought some flatter shoes, Saucony Team Taya which seem to be a good fit and quite low but the soles still feel a bit stiff - I'm hoping they will loosen up with use.

    Anyway I tried again this morning using these shoes and its a big improvement. I can now strike forefoot first reliably although it takes a bit of concentration. I find you can tell when you're doing it right because your footfall is almost silent.

    My routes are very hilly (that can't be helped where I live) and I've noticed that going steeply uphill the technique is no different to what I was doing previously. Downhill its a real effort to keep on the forefoot because the heel is obviously much closer to the ground. On the flat I've noticed the biggest improvement - just by keeping on the toes seems to give a real speed boost without any particular extra effort.

    My feet are aching slightly afterwards - they seem to be doing more work than merely just flopping on the ground as before.
  • A really intersting read & theory. I tried the forefoot strike last night for the first time as it does seem to make sense & the results were great. It took a little time to get used to it and a bit of concentration but I felt so much lighter on my feet and I was definately quicker.

    The only problem is my left calf feels a bit tight today but I guess it's working properley for the first time for ages. I'll keep working at it.
  • Andy, I would certaily agree it does feel quicker and 'lighter' and like you I found I had to concentrate hard. Following Sundays intial trial in my addidas swoops, I went out for a harder run, cross country, on Monday with my club and after 50 mins tired alot in the lower calf. The last 10 mins of the run I had to mainly resort back to heel striking. My left achillies stiffened up alot and I initially thought I might have over done it. Iced it for 15-20 mins that night and the next day it was ok, though I am palnning to rest from running until tomorrow. The next day the feet and lower calves were definitely feeling it. I think I will continue off road for a little longer before making the commitment to purchasing lightweight road shoes, in the mind that still seems wrong, the old bugger better be right...
  • Knocker -

    if you're getting pain in your Achilles, you might possibly be over-compensating and running on your toes, which is not recommended as it's a different route to injury. see Liz McColgan above.
  • Achilles

    Thanks for the advice, and I think I can confirm for periods of time I was propably up on my toes as opposed to a ball to heel strike. When doing this it is also important to make sure you keep the point of impact under your centre of gravity.

    A link to Liz Mccolgan didn't come through, could you please try and type it as text.
  • Knocker - sorry, I meant the reference to Liz's Marathon book in Slowboy's post earlier in this thread.

    One other thing I think is important and I don't know if you guys are trying, is Pirie's point about fast turnover (stride rate/cadence, call it what you will). I think that it's much easier and safer to to the forefoot strike thing if your turnover is good and fast - even when you are running relatively slowly! - and much harder and possibly more damaging to do if you're rate is too slow.
  • GlennGlenn ✭✭✭
    Achilles - I think you can only do it at all with a faster strike rate. Certainly true of my efforts so far.

    One perverse thing in my case: I checked my old shoes, including a 1996 vintage pair of Saucony Procyon long relegated to gardening duty, and realised I'd been forfoot striking all my running life. The only thing the built up heels were doing was getting in the way and probably contributing to the occasional tumble. Even my ordinary day shoes always wear through the ball of the foot - somehow I'd never put two and two together.
  • ChaosChaos ✭✭✭
    What else have you guys read up on? I had a re-read of Bob Glovers book (The Competitive Runner's Handbook) in the light of Gordons theories and they actually seem to agree in many respects on the forefoot strike being the optimal running style.

    The main difference is that Bob believes that not all runners can be forefoot strikers and he makes no connection between the high heel wedge in most running shoes and what Gordon sees as the consequent enforced heel-strike. I tried it out last night in a pair of Mizuno Wave Mavericks which I like a lot for slower heel strike type running and found it very difficult to really force a forefoot strike as you might expect.

    Would trying a short stretch of barefoot running on grass be ok?

  • Mark, I had refered to my Bob Glovers book, for beginners, and it touched on the subject saying it was a style used by the faster runners and was applicable to individuals running at 7min/mile pace or less, which I have just about achieved. And then states this is covered in more detail in my book for the competitive runner. One thing that did amuse me was that 'running form' was covered in chapter 30 something, and he muttered something about not bothereing with trying to attain a perfect style just do what's comfortable. I don't agree with that, I think good form has got to be important and you should strive to run as efficiently as possible, the question is, is efficient the same for everybody. If you are heavy like me, should you be forefoot stiking for all your runs? I know Gordan talks about how the human body has evolved and the natural way to run, but it has evolved on a certain diet and the average size of the European/North American has increased significantly in the last 100 - 200 years through dramatically increased diet, and that is a very small period of time in evolution terms. Though I can't help thinking he is right.

    I personally wouldn't run bare foot outside my garden!!
  • Glenn -

    my point was that runners with a slow stride rate tend in my experience to be the heaviest heel-strikers and vice versa. a quick stride rate is much more efficient, you avoid the wasteful and damaging "bouncy" stride that you tend to see a lot of where you spend too long in the air and land with a braking action, and you inevitably don't pound the ground so much.

    my suggestion would be that perhaps the easiest way to achieve better running form, which coincidentally is more likely to make you a forefoot striker, is to work on a quick stride rate - 180 steps per minute or even faster. this will definitely help to make your running "smooth and flowing" which is not only more efficient but also the best way to ward off injury.

    in my youth we used to run in plimsolls/plimsoles which were wafer thin throughout and pretty close to running in bare feet - do they still make them? I remember they used to wear out pretty quickly though. oh dear, I feel so old coming out with this. I'll shut up.
  • GlennGlenn ✭✭✭
    Achilles - I mentioned the shoes we used to use somewhere earlier in this thread and it also made me realise how long I'd been running. I was even quite good back then:)

    Browsing the local shops for suitable shoes I actually saw a pair of Dunlop Green Flash tennis shoes - I guess they'd been on the shelf for a long while. They were what I upgraded to from the plimsolls and the height of luxury by comparison. Sometimes they might last as long as three weeks...
  • Dunlop Green Flash - I'm coming over all nostalgic for summers long gone.
  • I too graduated from Plimsolls to Green Flash many years ago without any injuries that I can recall. I ran my first marathon in 1966 in Green Flash, If I remember rightly.
    My only serious injury in 50 years, a Beckham type stress fracture happened whilst training for London in 1987 whilst wearing expensive Reebok shoes.
    The Pirie book reminded me of the running style I used as a young man which was forefoot striking. Today on a 10 mile time trial on road I reverted to that style and ran a PB by 2 minutes and felt to be 'flying'.
    I think I lapsed into the heelstrike style in the 1980s when the marathon became my main distance. As I write I feel no ill-effects from today's run, however, that may have changed when I wake up tomorrow, I hope not.
  • GlennGlenn ✭✭✭
    Bought new shoes yesterday after a very helpful chat with the guy in the shop, who listened carefully then made a sensible recommendation. Ended up with the NB 764, based on the fact that I'm heavy and needed cushioning in the forefoot - some of the very light stuff perhaps inadvisable in my case.

    Seemed to work really well last night although a bad session in that a) it was supposed to be my rest day b) if I did go out it should have been 30 mins easy, but I felt so good in the shoes that I knocked 3.5 minutes off my best time this year on a route of a little over 5km. (Nothing too impressive in my case - I only started again in January after a loooong lay off).
  • Glenn, 3.5 mins is a fair whack over 5km, I will have to have a look at the NB 764! Like you I can't see myself in Tigers Paws etc, but was looking at possibly the light weight trainers instead of racing flats.

    Lawrence, what style of shoe did you run your 10m in?
  • ChaosChaos ✭✭✭
    Great result for a day off, Glenn!

    I had a go at forefoot striking a bit more seriously last night whilst doing a track session. It's very difficult to concentrate on what for me is a slightly shorter stride and higher cadence, however it was one of the fastest sessions i've ever done & am feeling no ill effects now. The Fila Flow shoes I wore are meant to be lightweight racer/trainers so still have slightly more heel cushioning than forefoot, however for the first time I could see why they got reviews for feeling quick. Might try the Fila Racer next!
  • Have you seen :-

    http://www.posetech.com

    It looks like some guy is trying to make some money out of preaching the same message as Gordon.

    The section about developing their own shoe sounds interesting though.
  • ChaosChaos ✭✭✭
    Well, i've gone and posted a message there! Let's see if "Dr Romanov" has anything to say about Mr Pirie and his ideas. To be honest though, I suspect a lot of this stuff was known before gordon pirie & has probably been re-invented since.

    Interesting to see they recommend New Balance racing shoes though including one for long road races. Might have a look...
  • 'Dr. Romanov' - sounds like the sort you get on QVC
  • Gordon Pirie was one of the greatest runners of his generation.
    However,after reading his book I must ask with the gteatest respect,how did he manage to run so fast whilst living up his own bottom at the same time?
    I draw attention to at least two occasions in the book where Gordon describes particular training sessions and speculates that they would "kill a jogger".Maybe so but why alienate proberbly 99% of your readership?
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