Marathon on 3 runs per week.

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  • WDYT ?

     I ducked below 1:30 for the FIRST time at Glasgow half a couple of months ago using a 3 times a week RW programme and now thinking of doing Lochaber as my FIRST marathon next year.

    Aiming for sub 3:30 using the same 3 x a week principles - is this possible - the pacing looks a bit compliacted to work out though on the FIRST system ........? Last 10k in run up to Glasgow was 42 mins

     Guidance appreciated

  • Fish52Fish52 ✭✭✭

    PR4 - Well done with your half marathon time. Sub 1:30 should convert to a sub 3:30 marathon. In fact you might find that you are able to get closer to 3:20.

     I agree that the RW 3 x a week is complicated to work out the paces. I actually decided to buy the book, which is avialable at Amazon. All the paces are worked out for you and there are also schedules for different marathon paces and other distances 5k, 10k, 1/2M. I can recommend the book.

    It's also worth visiting the Furman website - a google search to Furman First should get you there.

    http://www.furman.edu/first/
  • JPF1 - Thanks

     Got the book & a lot clearer although it now poses another question re the diff between the book marathon schedule & the RW one especially in regard to the long runs......................

    RLRF has you hitting 20 milers after only 4 weeks and 5 of these bu**ersin total whilst the RW schedule starts of at 10m, not reaching the st of two 20 milers at 11 weeks ????? 

    Further assistance welcome......

  • GizzmoGizzmo ✭✭✭

    Hi Paul,

    I used the Furman 16 week schedule (off the website) and then modified it as I was riding my bike up (and down) Pyrenean mountains for the week 4 & 5 long runs. I'm not sure what the easy option might have been!!image. That said I did start the schedule as 13, 15 & 17 miles for the first 3 weeks and I think I would have managed the first 20 if cycling hadn't got in the way. (remember that as you only run 3 times a week you can recover better) This was training for the October Loch Ness marathon & I had already had spring & early summer doing long distances on the road bike. I was also doing a little running and came into the marathon schedule very aerobically fit and just needing the running legs trained. I do feel the Furman schedule starts with longer runs than some of the others including the RW version but staying as close to the schedule as possible does give results. Despite a modified first few weeks I still took over 30 minutes off my Marathon time at Loch Ness and that was on an undulating (hilly?) course.  I hope to do a FULL 16 week Furman schedule (un-interupted by the bike) for Lochaber next April.

    You really need to come into the Furman version with a good training base preferably running but certainly an endurance sport and if you haven't been RUNNING the miles take care if you start your runs at 13 miles. Hope this helps image

  • Fish52Fish52 ✭✭✭
    Gizzmo - Interesting to read about your successes off all that cycling. I think that cycling is a great way to boost your aerobic capacity, but as you say, you need to make sure that your legs are running fit. Great to take 30 mins off your marathon time.

    PR4 - There are 2 FIRST marathon schedules the one on RW website is for 1st time marathon runners, the one in the book is for experienced marathon runners. Other marathon schedules usually have 4-5 twenty milers and Bruce Tulloh reckons that the total distance of your 5 longest runs should total 100 miles.
  • Thanks Gizmo & JPF1 - that makes more sense.

    Despite completing a number of adventure races during the summer and a desire to go sub 3:30 i'm going to err on the side of caution and follow the FIRST 1st time programme which will hopefully still allow me to keep up good quality mtb sessions. 

    Few weeks 2 go before i need to start this off in pursuit of lochaber so i can enjoy the trails in the meantime. 

  • Followed an adaptation of the FIRST programme for my 1st marathon 2 years ago and now using it as precisely as I can for my second in March. I'm trying to either go a little faster in the intervals or adding another interval or two at the prescribed speed and put a mile or two on the long run to compensate for missing the very occassional session or some X-training. My question now is how am I best advised to deal with 2 marathons 7 weeks apart and a half another 5 weeks later? Is the book worth getting to help with getting scheduling for multiple races? The advice on here seems to just cater for a one-off event.

  • I am following the FIRST programme for my first marathon (London). I have been pleased with how well it has been going overall and I have tried to stick to the schedule as closely as possible. Just one really numpty question. Should I aim for the same pace in the marathon as for my longest runs, calculated from  my 10k time? Other training plans talk about doing long runs slower than marathon pace and then running only the last third of a long run at marathon pace so I am a little confused

  • Kiki D, my 10k time dropped during training, I re-set the rest of my paces accordingly and ran the Marathon, on average, just a few seconds quicker than my prescribed LSR pace, although I ran a few of my shorter LSR's quicker than both the marathon and and prescribed pace...does that help?  I was actually 20 secs below LSR pace in my marathon, my second, until I hit a coastal gale 16-19 miles, which were slower than 23-26!!

    It's your first marathon, running all the way is your goal, it'll be a PB regardless.  IMHO, run it at LSR pace, don't go nuts early on, fuel effectively and expect the last 6 miles to be manageable but slower than the first 20.  Remember, endurance is cardiovascular fitness x determination >)   Good luck

  • Que?

    Have just had a look at the Furman site which for a first time marathon runner gives a PMP (predicted marathon pace) of 10K pace + 45 seconds. I have been doing all my long runs at 10k pace + 60-75 sec (or at least trying to!) following the somewhat simpler training program on the Runner's World site. 

    As you say just finishing will be a huge achievement and if I can finish under my predicted time I will be a very happy bunny!

  • The PMP of 45 secs above 10k pace is attainable, but probably not the average experience.  I'd imagine 10k + 45-60 is the right spread.  One important key factor, which I have never been able to do consistently is the cross training - after all if I can only run 3 times a week then 2 extra sessions are gonna be tough to find room for week-in week-out.

    Best of luck, watch out for taper-madness image

  • Apologies if the answer is buried in the previous 42 pages, but if I could only do 3 sessions of running a week (i.e. no cross-training) will it be possible to do a marathon in autumn?  I just did a half at 1Hr 40 so have a reasonable base to start with
  • TmapTmap ✭✭✭

    Yes.

    In summary, any marathon training program is based around 3 key sessions (an interval sesh, a tempo run, and a long run) so you can train quite well on 3 a week.

    And anyway, a marathon is "possible" with no training at all, so it just depends what you're aiming at.  I did a fairly quick one (3:12) running just at weekends, and another (3:27) on the back of a total of six training runs.

  • that gives me some comfort!  Most training programmes you read seem to imply you are doing something 5-6 times a week.  Fitting family and work into that equation just doesn't fit...I notice the runners world smart coach throws up schedules around 3 runs, I may build something around that and bin the idea of any cross-training in 'spare' time. 

    At least I won't suffer from over-training...

  • Hi there
    And apologies if this has already been answered a thousand times in earlier pages, have tried to skim through and wow! there's some knowledge out there image
    I've been following the First Three Times Marathon schedule since January for a June marathon (Norway Midnight Sun yipeee!).  I started the schedule this early because I'm also doing the Etap du Dales bike ride which is 110 miles ('five big hills and the rest is undulating' eeek!)  in May so wanted to be able to double up on weeks if I was having to do more biking etc. plus I can't run as much in the school holidays so decided to do what I could those weeks and then get back on schedule when my little babes went back. 
    The schedule's been going ok.  I've pretty much managed to stick to the running side and have certainly done the amount of tempo/speed/long sessions I should have done, even if they haven't always been in the right weeks... often though I've only done one bike session (the cross training element for me) and this has not been enough for the bike ride but that's another story...image
    The good news is that for the FIRST TIME EVER I haven't been injured for months (wish I hadn't said that, touching lots of wood) and it's definitely the combo keeping me injury-free.  I'm sure the biking must be helping my running because I'm running less miles than I've ever done (previously only done half marathons) and yet am finding it easy to match earlier tempo times for ten miles etc. and think nothing of running 17/18 miles these days.  For the record, in my humble opinion, those people who say running doesn't help biking are absolutely right.  I foolishly thought I could get away with marathon training for a long bike ride and the only thing that's been getting me through longer bike rides every week is my head!  I can't tell you how slooooow I am up hills and am sick of sitting behind my lovely friend's very toned, but nonetheless, bottom.
    HOWEVER I've just read the Monster Marathon Month pointers and this is where I need your advice PLEASE!  It says that you should leave off the cross training during this month and concentrate only on running.  The marathon is the most important to me time-wise (I'm aiming for 3.15-3.30) but I don't want to let down my friend on the bike/hold her up and I must get around the course before the marshalls go home (and you get chucked off if you haven't done 60miles by 2pm) as I've got sponsorship riding (scuse the pun) on it.  I have limped from one long bike to the next a week later and am seriously not in a position now to stop biking.  The bike ride is five weeks before the marathon.  Could I keep biking and running as I'm doing now until the bike ride then have a monster three weeks: four runs and one bike to prevent injury (?) (providing I can get straight back to running two days after the bike which I should be able to, different muscles and all that), then taper for the final two weeks?
    I think that's my question although any advice gratefully accepted.  Sorry it's a bit of a long one image
  • GizzmoGizzmo ✭✭✭

    Hi runnernotabiker,

    I'm not sure is this answers your question, BUT ... hope last years experience helps.

    Last year I entered the Loch Ness marathon (October) but spent the spring and most of the summer road cycling due to Audax events, sportives, the Etape Caledonia and a week riding the high cols of the French Pyrenees in July. It was August before I could get back into a proper FIRST marathon training schedule but I still stuck to the 3 runs a week (intervals, tempo & long) plus a couple of easy short bike rides for the cross training. The early seasons cycling gave me the aerobic fitness & endurance base so it was just fine tuning the legs for marathon running. It worked as I took half an hour off my previous PB for the marathon at Loch Ness (3 hr 41) which isn't exactly flat. BTW I've just turned 55 so no spring chicken!!!

    My advice ..

    Concentrate on the bike until the event is over but don't give up on the running completely, just do a couple of short runs a week so you "don't forget how".  Doing all your marathon trainingis going to compromise your cycling event. Try to translate longer or interval runs into bike sessions during this time.

    when the cycling event is over don't over do the running in an attempt to get back lost time. You will have developed a good endurance base from the bike. Maybe concentrate on speed endurance through intervals and shorter tempo running. Running might not help cycling too much but endurance cycling certainly helped my running.

    hope this helps answer a few uncertainties.

  • Hi Gizzmo
    Thanks so much for that - gold dust!  It's really hard having the confidence to lay off the running but what you say makes perfect sense, and is clearly based on experience (amazing PB - half an hour off? Respect!)

    A week cycling in the Pyrenees sounds like fun - although I don't think I'd have said that last week, battling against cross winds, and against my bike at a 45degree angle to the road, (didn't like that one bit) I was starting to forget why I loved biking - everytime I got over four hours I'd bonk (sounds much better than it is I reckon image ) but yesterday my hubbie decided that, with the children neatly packed off for the day, we should cycle 70 miles.  He made me start slower, drink every 30 minutes, eat every hour, have a bacon and egg butty half way through... and loandbehold, I'm the one who wants to carry on at the end!!!  I'm so excited now because I was really starting to dread it.  Having said that, it was the first time since last September I've biked in the sun...

    How did you get on in the Etape Caledonia?  Have you done the Yorkshire one?  

    Thanks again for the advice, will let you know how I get on.
  • GizzmoGizzmo ✭✭✭

    Hi Runnernotabiker,

     The Etape Caledonia went well last year in about 4hr 40. Haven't done any Yorkshire sportives but I did the 100 mile Cairngorm sportive last June. It finishes at the Cairngorm Ski centre, so a "mountain top finish" just to get things warmed up.  Doing the Etape Caledonia again this year & Loch Ness again in October.

    At the moment I am in serious taper mode for the Lochaber marathon on Sunday.image

  • Hi Gizzmo
    It all sounds very cold image but very impressive.  4 hr 40??? We're aiming for 11-12 hours - really!  Best of luck with the Lochaber on Sunday.  How much running training have you done for that?
  • GizzmoGizzmo ✭✭✭

    Runnernotabiker,

    For Lochaber I've managed the "full" 16 week FIRST schedule. 3 runs a week plus a couple of cross training sessions (normally aerobic cycling & mainly on the turbo trainer over the winter). I normally try to get a half marathon in 4 - 5 weeks before the long one to test my fitness. This year it was Alloa & I managed a PB so I think the training has gone reasonably well.

    Now I have a question. image for anyone on the list.

    My second marathon this year is Lochness (in October) . In between Lochaber, on Sunday, and then I aim to be doing road cycling over the summer. 
    Should I aim to complete a full FIRST training program for the October marathon, it would mean starting mid June or does anyone have suggestions on modifying this (making it shorter etc.), considering that I have already trained for one marathon & I will be doing a lot of endurance cycling (plus some running) over the summer?
     

    thank you.

  • HigsHigs ✭✭✭

    Dragging this one up....

    Gizzmo - I see nobody answered about the gap between one mara and another. I'd be very interested in what you did and whether you think it worked as I'm planning for Autumn 2010 and Spring 2011 marathons.

  • Hi all... regarding the X-Training, I swim 4 days a week... does the swimming constitute a good xtraining or should I probably try to do more gym training?

    I am sure that this has been discussed before, but after page 4 my brain gave up! :/

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  • Hi Guys,

     Does anyone know whether their tempo runs already include the warmup and warmdown at the end, or do you add those to the distances? So is a 5M tempo run, 1M warmup, 5 miles at tempo and then 1M warmdown?

     Cheers,

    Tim.

  • Whats thre rest time between sets on the Tuesday speed session?
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