Sub 33 !0k

Okay, following the success of the sub 35 10k thread and the sub 34 10k thread (i.e. I went sub 35 and then sub 34 :O)), figure it has to be worth starting another one up.

So hints, tips, tricks, good training sessions, tempo runs, hill reps and of what length, intervals long or short reps and long or short recovery. Improve quality/quantity first. Potential target races and the sort of times needed at those races to make sub 33 a possibility.

Any thoughts, ideas and anything else people can come up with will be most appreciated.
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Comments

  • Bryn - congrats on your sub34 a great improvement. I can't help with the training tips as I am guessing that you need to stick with what has already been working for you, but upping the pace on the track to your new target pace... well that has worked for me as this time last year I was struggling to break 42mins and yesterday recorded my 2nd 37:02... sub 37 is def my next target!!

    As to what race and when, the summer is coming and providing the heat doesn't effect your running then the world is your oyster... but have you thought about a return to Regents Park? Now you know the course it might be a good choice...

    good luck!
  • Bryn - if it works so well why not open a sub - 26 thread ;)

    Seriously, well done (again).

    Have a look at the first couple of pages of the sub 2:30 forum, as there's a chat about 32:xx 10kms:

    http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/forum/forummessages.asp?UTN=36728&URN=11&dt=4&srchdte=0&cp=1&v=1&sp=

    Best of luck!
  • How many miles a week are you doing at the moment and what is your current pb?
  • HillyHilly ✭✭✭
    Spans, fab 10k time, well done!

    Sorry Bryn not at a level to offer the kind of tips you need, but best of luck in getting the times you want, I'm sure you'll do it!
  • Spans- regents park will definitely be in my mind. Loved the course, and the 3 lap system, bar the lapped runners.

    PB this time last year was 36:28, my new PB was set yesterday of 33:16, at the 5 mile mark i felt very comfortable and although my sprint wasn't up to much, I was runnign well within myself for most of the race, just to be certain I didn't blow up. In all honesty without having to constantly maneveur round lapped runners and with a slightly faster pace sub 33 was a possibility yesterday, but this is more about not only hitting 33 but also going well under.

    JEJ- just wait till next winter :O)

    JRM- currently about 40-50 miles a week

    re: track workouts- I already go at a significantly faster than race pace. I train with a 1:53 800, 1:56 800 and 3:56 1500, 1:55 800 and 4:13 1500m runner and am consistently with them or ahead in reps, think that this pace work has seriously helped me.

    Other thing is the long run I've added in, never done one seriously before and now done 2 in this month, both 17 miles first at 7:22 pace next at 6:28 pace and was nice and comfy the whole way, never really straining .

    Think sub 33 will come naturally in time, just interested in hearing strategies on how to get there quicker :O)
  • Do lots of stretches and don't get injured?

    Have you had pro- advice on a stretching routine? Eating routine? The stuff that isn't directly running.

    I think that the aim must be to avoid the mumbo jumbo and old wives tales.

    Ask Paula, she might just respond....
  • You should be training for a sub 31 now Bryn - sub 33 thread when you are only 16 seconds off it is just milking it ;)
  • Popsider- well maybe... :O), but sub 31 is a long way off, thought about just going straight to sub 32 (31 is a long way off!), but this way seems logical and keeps feet more firmly on the ground! Besides which it'd be better to have a higher class of sub 33 clocking :O), at the moment a sub 33 on a near perfect course, with a good pace man would be routine, but the aim is to get myself to the level where I can run 32:xx on not as good a course.

    Next 10k is on February 19th, but somehow think a Parliament Hill cross country isn't going to yield the fastest time!

    Blisters- I like that idea, I might well send off and ask her, I've had some advice re: training from Andi Jones ( 2:18 marathoner, won Northern XC title last week, was less than 3 minutes from Bekele at Edinburgh), but Paula might be a very good idea.
  • Bryn - I wouldn't `go' for sub 33, sub 32 or anything specific. You're still at the stage where you are knocking great chunks off your 10k time (aaah happy memories). For me, the sensible thing to do would be to carry on what you are doing until you plateau.
  • nrg-bnrg-b ✭✭✭
    Bryn: Congrats on your 10K time, mate. These threads of yours reminds me of Yelena Isinbayeva's world records ;-)
  • I agree with BR, the key to distance running is consistency, if it's not broke don't fix it.
  • OK then, this next point is meant more as something to debate than my opinion. If Bryn is running 33minutes now, then long term he must be looking to get under 30 minutes and then maybe do some serious times. If, say, he's got a weakness in his armoury - maybe a lack of absolute pace that might prevent him going much below 30 minutes (it might be strength, fliexibility, technique), wouldn't he be well advised to start addressing that now whilst he's still in his teens rather than wait a couple of years until he's plateaued ? In other words as he's a bit more useful than most does it make sense for him to look a bit further ahead.
  • I agree Pops...

    Bryn - Pleased to hear that you are doing track workouts with fast middle-distance guys. Are you planning to do speed-work with them through the Summer?

    I think a summer of 800/1500 racing would be a great idea at the moment. (With plenty of slow over-distance running thrown in)

    BTW - congrats on the recent progress
  • I agree with popsider 31 mins is the mark you should aim for, though it's a distance I would be far less concerned about. The improvement in shorter distances is more crucial, 800m-5000m range.

    In training I would mainly target the 5 min/mile pace and get familiar to it. As for races I would rather pick a race and another one as a back up plan. Don't get me wrong the Regent's Park 10k is good for a monthly training session (if training is the aim), but it's not the most important race in
    the race calendar.

    Remembered the last chat we had after the track race? I mentioned strength was an area you should look into. The XC season has helped you a bit in terms of staying power. The other area I thought was your stride pattern. Flexibility and a few drills, should help you to cover a few more inches in a stride. In terms of race execution made a lot of progress too, instead of just hanging on due to tactics, giving 100% right from the gun.

    Also you should be aware that you had quite a long season and done quite a few races. Don't expect linear improvement all the time.
  • nice one on getting the time Bryn, you have worked hard for that. I think that BR is correct in saying that you should just keep knocking chunks off your times and you will surprise yourself as you go.

    personally, I think you should focus on the summer season to target some of your shorter times. However, personally i enjoy the winter cross country season so that I can focus less on times and more on racing and beating people. Then as a result of this, when I run my annual(!) 10k road race, I surprise myself by the time I achieve.

    As far as training paces go, I would continue your high-intensity track work as much as possible and then target around 5-5.10/mile as a pace for long intervals at the weekend (e.g. 8x 1K, etc) Then threshold runs will naturally become faster if you run them to a target HR of about 80% WHR.

    Keep up the miles, general conditioning is obviously very important to run fast over 10K, as is strength conditioning such as core stability, and gym work which could include plyometrics and bodyweight exercises. I certainly find these very helpful for strength endurance.

    Hope this helps...see you at Parliament Hill!

    P.S. Are you running Met. League next week?
  • Jon- no got work and I don't think I'll be able to get down. Handed in notice so following from the end of this month I'll be doing more Saturday races. By the way the ne wpicture makes it look like you're running in a Herts Phoenix vest ;)

    Like the ideas coming through. TwoTon- yes I will be, this is the group I've always trained with, just that some of the faster lads have arrived back.

    Summer racing- heard this mentioned a few times, racing plan at the moment is to concentrate on 1500-5k, I might do a few 800s but they really don't suit me. Probably 1500 and 3k will be my main race distances with 5ks and steeplechases added in as well. I'll also probably do one or two track 10ks as I quite enjoyed my first and it'll help give me a very definite indication of improvement.

    URR- stride pattern is something I have been working hard at, now I feel I have a lot more control over my stride. It used to be a case of having one stride and that was it, now I have a few more options as to how long I want my stride to be.

    One thing I have really been working on is change of pace, I used to just run at a steady pace the whole time, now in lost of rep sessions I'm doing the first 3/4 at a steady pace and then really kicking hard and it's paying dividends.

    Jon- general conditioning is something that I need to do more off, every so often I ge tinto it and start doing more but hten I let it slip, something need to put a lot more attention into.

    Popsider- very valid point- I'll be talking to my coach about this, the encouraging thing is that whilst my onger times have come down fast my shorter distance times have also improved dramatically, December 04 I did an 800 time trial and had a big break through and ran 2:17 I think, this year did it again and ran 2:09 in freezing weather, my basic speed is improivng at a fast rate at the moment.

    Think the racing schedule is going to consist of a summer of track with the big aim being to...
    Qualify AAAs u20 5km (15:30 QT)

    and then get into a SoE cross country squad in the winter.
  • My 2 pence worth is that you want:
    i) a variety of paces (see Horwill etc on 5 pace)
    ii) event specific stuff

    Eg Gebrselassie would do everything from a session of 300m, 200m, 150m, 100m (he even did 20m reps!) through to 5 x 2K off a couple of minutes rest (ie 10K broken into chunks)

    Speed work with the faster boys is going to be great for short term and long term progress.

    Doing 10K pace work will really help. That's current 10K pace and a bit quicker. You'll know what sessions that means for you but reps of 1k to 2k with shortish rest is good.

    Do some 5K pace work too. This is roughly VO2 max pace and really boosts your fitness.

    Remember you don't have to fit it all into one week. Look at a fortnightly cycle of sessions.

    You can also vary pace within sessions - off to do a couple of sets of 5min, 4min, 3min, 2min, 1min all off 2min soon. Big range of paces.

    A good XC base (regular Met leagues) also helps no end - ran my 10K pb after coming off the XC and starting to sharpen for a 1500m season.

    Sounds like you've got a good idea of the balance between not roasting yourself in the session but working quite hard.
  • oh dear Bryn, im gona have to sort that pic out...get a bit of yellow in on the vest!

    I agree with what Beagle said about 5k pace training, very useful for all distance runners.
  • I find it interesting that you say in your profile that you say that you felt you showed little natural talent for running at school and yet you obviously are a very good runner.

    In simple terms I think of running ability as a combination of innate natural talent combined with how your body responds to training. I've no idea if there is a relationship between the two, although your results seem to suggest that it may not be a strong one.
  • JRM- I'm starting to think the same to be honest.

    What has become very noticeable is in training with my training partners- I can take on sessions and mileage that they can't come close to and yet with say 12 hours I'm ready for more, whilst it may take them 24 hours or longer to recover. For instance this week I raced on the Sunday over 10k, did 5 miles easy on Mondya afternoon with my calves killing me, then monday evening went to Ware and did a session up a fairly gently sloping hill (after a 2 mile warm up), of 6 x 3 minutes hard with jog down recovery and on every single rep I was ahead of my very fast 800m training partner who'd on the saturday gotten 13th in BUSA short course, a sub 9 3000m runner and another whos run 16:30 for 5k but had done almost nothing over the weekend. Then on the Tuesday I went down the track and did 4 repetitions of (200 fast,600 fastish, one mile at 10k pace all in one go so 6 laps of the track), and they either didn't show or really struggled.

    Not sure, but if there's any element of natural talent, it's that my body can take a very high level of training and not feel the effects from it particularly. Not sure why that is but in terms of recovery I seem fairly strong. That's why I think a very high level of mileage may work very well for me.

    Barnsely- sorry, just realised I hadn't addressed your point- that's essentially what I'm doing but as I work out 90%+ of my training myself I need to find out everything, and even though I'm likely to keep my plan lots of other ideas need to come in, so that when I do hit that plateau I have an idea on how to break through it. Though for the moment continuing as I am and just making minor alterations seems the smart decision.

    Did a quick calculation on my run today, at the start of last season despite a number of attempts I hadn't broken 10 minutes for 3k, on Sunday I ran for 10k at a faster pace, just a nice little stat :O)
  • Right, once my foot heals ( being very patient with it at the moment, did a session last night, but apart from that total rest), then I'll be going for a serious crack at this. Probably try one of the regents park 10ks again, as I know how good the route is and that I should have a decent level of competition. Portugal should have helped my speed endurance over 5k/10k a lot as most sessions were around 4k-10k in total length at a hardish effort.

    Got a 5k next Saturday for Southern Mens team in Battersea park and providing I'm healthy that should give me a good indication.
  • Just got my new 10k PB of 33:40 tonight at the Polaroid Series Helensburgh 10k and I'm also keen on going under it. It was my aim this race to have actually hit 32 mins, but alas it must not have meant to be this time. I feel if I can't go under 33 mins yet, then I can certainly get closer to it than what I did tonight.

    Bryn R - what's the latest with your own attempts?
  • I've also moved up to 70 miles per week now and confident that this will help me to achieve more breakthroughs. Was running off the back of about 55 to 60 before.
  • Brilliant run Stuart, great stuff. Do you run for Shettleston by any chance? I used to run with them for about a year, used to do a lot of track sessions.

    I was at the prize-giving (for spectating purposes). Did you come 7th, you will be getting a prize through the door.

    I'm had to settle for 37:50 tonight. I only do between 35 and 40 miles a week though.

    Good luck with your training, but be cautious, and try and not get injured.
  • Wow, what a coincidence! Yes I do run for Shettleston, have been doing so for about a year now. I thought I'd come 6th (over taken by a guy from Kilbarchan AAC, who I thought took 5th from me) but whatever, I'm pleased it was a top 10 pos - and you're probably right about the positions.

    I've alternated the 70 miles with an easier week. For example, this was the easy week due to the 10k I just did. Next week will be back to the 70, and thereafter I might drop it down a bit every now and then to recover if need be, but the aim is to be consistent at higher mileage from now on if I can handle it.
  • Shettleston- I know Ian Johnston who runs for your club then.

    MIxed progress- basically I haven't been able to train for about 2 months. I raced my first road 10k in a whlie last THursday over a tough, constantly undulating course and ran 34:29, so judging by how tough the course is I reckon I've lost about 45 seconds worth over a 10k of fitness, hopefully I'll be able to get that back again now that I'm training.

    Not sure when my next attempt at sub 33 will be, but until I've gotten some more fitness will be struggling.

    StuartG- quite probably the extra mileage will help, it's a question now of keeping the quality the same despite the extra run.
  • Okay, providing recovery from injury goes as hoped, I'm tentatively planning an attempt at the start of August to go under 33 minutes. It'll need some serious training in July to work, but I think I might be able to do it.

    Aim now that my track season is effectively gone, is to get that SoE vest, and to do that I need to run a 15:10 5k, so a low 32 10k is a must.

    Torn between working on my speed ( which long term I think will improve me, certainly give me better 1500 times) and putting the miles in which'll certianly improve my 10k time more...Can't keep on trying to play half-way and at the moment, think it's gonna be the speed side, with a switch back in the winter.
  • Re. Endurance or speed. Why not a bit of both?

    Bryn, search for the Rye Classic Series on "Events" - we plan to go down for all the races. There are couple of 5Ks and a 10K in Sept. You'd benefit from the fast 5Ks and get to know the course well before doing the 10K. Also I think there is a junior prize at each race and you may well have a shot at the overall series if you do them all.
    You are welcome to stay with us Fri night if that helps as we are half way there.
  • Good luck with your training, can't offer advise regarding training but can advise you that the Ness 10k held in beginning of October is a fast 10k usually won by some Kenyan in around 30 mins.

    Aberdeen 10k was won by a 19 year old doing his first 10k road race in just over 31mins and apparently he found the first 5k with the leading pack to be comfortable.
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