POSE Method of running?

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  • I was watching some of the vids on the pose website - there's one where the guy (Jeremy - on Fetch) increases the speed of the treddy and you can see how his feet come up more (rather surprised at that) - but anyway - his feet don't ever really get above knee height.  He's a pose coach too - so presumably knows his stuff.

    Quite surprised after the pics I've seen of the foot up at the top of the thigh 

  • The muscle elasticity drills are like plyometrics, I do them as part of a warm up, certainly worked at London. And as part of my track sessions. Need to replace my skipping rope, had a lovely leather one from when I id boxing byut it got destroyed when Dave's Cellar flooded.
  • I must get a skipping rope too - not really got the coordination, I always screwed up that station when we had it in a circuit class!
  • nrg-bnrg-b ✭✭✭

    XFR: What you see is the natural increase in range of motion ie ROM as the speed goes up. From a perception point of view we always try to limit the ROM by Pulling as little as possible. So if you were to ask Jeremy how much he was Pulling with his hamstrings when running fast he will say "Not much".

    The Fall allows you to Pull.

    The Pull is the action that lets you change support to the next Pose

    The Pose is the best alignment of our body limbs/segment to Fall from.

  • I think what threw me a bit at first was that in the early drills, the foot comes straight up and the knee comes forward - whereas when running the thigh stays close to vertical and the foot comes back.

    CT explained this as necessary because you need to develop that perception even though due to motion it will actually change - I think the book could have been clearer on it though - it confused me quite a bit 

  • nrg-bnrg-b ✭✭✭

    XFR: The drills teach perception of movement such that if you try to maintain that perception when you run then your running will be better. I guess it is a form of "reverse psychology". One of my phrases: If you think in circles it'll all go pear-shaped.

    The book was put together on a shoe-string budget by Nicholas as no publisher would take it on. For example, I think his son who was a young teenager at the time did the electronic published form.

    Personally, I liked the book. I've read it a few times with the attitude that there is something in it for me and I have to find it. When I see an inconsistency I view it as testament to my knowledge that I am now able to spot these mistakes. But then that's just me.
     

  • nrg-bnrg-b ✭✭✭

    XFR: Some more thoughts on perception...What you think you're doing may not necessarily be what is actually happening. During a clinic, it never ceases to surprise me the look on the faces of some very capable athletes when they see themselves under the scrutiny of video analysis.

  • I get the fall principle more now since yesterday's run. I think previously I was falling too far for what my legs could do, and when I reduced the fall angle to slow down I still kept the same heel pull height instead of reducing this. So a lot of muscular effort wasted!

    Keeping my run slow helped technique-wise. I thought if I went faster I'd more likely revert to my previous running style, which although wasn't heel striking, certainly had my support leg out in front.

    The only problem with doing pose slow is the load on the calves as support is longer when cadence is lower. So I either run it quicker and make the runs almost interval (to recover, as I'm not a fast runner!) Or I do some short slower runs to cement the technique and work on the plyometrics. Or both? image

  • I expect it isn't, nrg-b - even so - just watching Dr R I can see that how he runs is nothing like the drills.

    Could he not revamp the book now it's started to sell?  I just found some of it rather confusing and I do wonder whether what is an interesting idea could be put across better.  F'rinstance - the book makes a big deal of the original Greek athletes with pictures on vases and stuff.  Sure - they look like they're not heel striking, but they also have their foot way out in front of their body rather than under the COG.

    I also found the pictures of people heel striking looking like every step was l was as painful as walking on burning coals were rather daft.  It simply isn't that painful - even if over time it may do more damage 

  • Bear: Both Lee (New level 4 POSE Coach) and myself spoke to Doc R about updating the book and video in October last year and basically he hasn't got the time at present as he is so busy on other projects and trying to further the science behind POSE. He wants us as POSE coaches to help POSE beginners and generally spread the word rather than rely on one central very small family Romanov organisation to do everything.
  • thanks GP - I appreciate you and the other guys putting the time in. image

    I'm looking forward to seeing more of the science - I guess with the book I just got a bit too much of the images of cheetars and leopards and stuff which sounds jolly nice but I'd like to believe there was more science behind it.  In fact I might even have a dig around in the medical journals to see what I can find 

  • I tried my attempt at pose yesterday and did 5M in 34 mins when my normal for that distance is more like 45 mins (last weeks flm was 4:28...) - quite incredible!
  • Blimey - that's one hell of an improvement!

    Was that your first Pose run?  Not sure I could keep going for 5 miles - my calf muscles would be knackered 

  • XFR - What do you do? (the medical reference has me intrigued)
  • Wow! Truly remarkable Silver Fox. Please would you tell us more about how you did it. Why some pick it up so quick and others struggle for ages is still an unknown quantity. Anything you can tell us might help others. Any video possible?

  • CT - I've just started training (6 months) to be a physio -absolutely loving it so far.

    So what do you do?  At some poitns I think medic, then at others I think physio 

  • interesting stuff  - thanks SIance image

    bit surprised at the loewer eccentric loading bit - I would have thought that the bent leg on landing in Pose would have meant more eccentric loading.

    I really find the gait analysis stuff fascinating - I can see myself doing a PhD in it! 

  • I am a medic - with a sports science diploma - I did a thesis in gait analysis. All outdated now and supersceded by the fact I have become a pose coach and all my issues with gait problems have gone away (undoing a years worth of work).

    I diagnose send to the fizz to treat then advise about why it happened and what they can do to prevent it.

    You are right about the eccentric load being increased on the bent knee - but only if if you continue to land ahead of your cog, but as we land under it - most of the impact force is diverted behind us rather than absorbed into the leg - so the eccentric forces are then decreased

  • Interesting CT. I did sports science at undergrad, then post grad dip in sports therapy, now nearly finished masters (final piece of research to complete this summer).

    At the risk of sounding a nerd, I find biomechanics facinating image and it really helps me with diagnosis.

  • Well if you really are interested in biomechanics....

    Take a look at www.poserunner.co.uk/page10.htm a short video clip of me this morning. Vid should be here as well http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=1119346340882509785&hl=en-GB but wasn't playing a while ago. On my page is also a scanned acetate with the frame by frame "stick man" view. On the ground on the vid are 3 white markers placed 1 meter apart and a piece of tape on my ankle knee and hip also as markers. You can see the eccentric loading occuring on my knee and calf at frames 8,9, and 10. On the acetate I travelled 20.03 cm in 12 frames at 30fps the ground markers are 10cm apart I calculate from this I am running at just over 300 meters a minute or once around a track in say 75sec pace. From a POSE point of view it shows slight K position and slight landing ahead, 2/3 frames on support and more if I care to spend some more time at it. What it really shows to me the more I do this stuff is that the POSE running leg is autonomic, all done with elastic recoil. This in POSE terms is POSE, Fall and your legs will pull and land under your GCM all on their own. With the correct posture(Pose stance) and placing your torso in the right place in space (Falling) then your pull, cadence and everything else will happen just dandy if you just allow them to. All the drills and exercises are there to... not help you learn, but help you un-learn your old running habits. You really are made to run guys and you actually need to know nothing in order to do it.

  • And for good measure the acetate also shows a vertcal oscillation of only 3cm. From the vid a cadence of 7+say 8 frames between opposite leg midstrides thats say 220+ woow!

  • how do we get to see the acetates, GP?
  • Bear, the acetate shows on the poserunner page but not on the google vid - at least it does on my pc.

    GP, which software are you using to digitise the vid? I've used motion capture but found it quite time consuming to get true data (it would stick in plenty of made up co-ordinates for fun).

    You don't look like there's any fwd lean in the vid despite your fast speed. Your torso appears very upright, so you must be really ultilising elastic recoil to good effect. The acetate shows this nicely too.

  • oh - the bit below the video - wasn't sure quite how to interpret it! How does it work?

    I'm finding that the balls of my feet are getting a lot more feeling through them. Not sure if this is normal (due to landing on them/thinner soles) or just that they're working more with pose. ANy thoughts fromyou guys?

    One final (technical) question - how does elastic recoil work?  I've studied muscle action in terms of actin, myosinand crossbridges etc etc - so how does recoil work in terms of those please? 

  • Bear, some stuff here

    and the fab stretch shortening cycle here

    Based on the elastic properties of the musculotendinous unit to store potential (recoil) energy (like a spring being pressed down) via eccentric loading to then convert into a powerful concentric contraction.

    Authors in the field include Komi, Bosco and Bobbert image

  • ooh ta - will have a google for that as well. plus might ask some of my lecturers as they do conference stylee stuff.

    ooo - plyometrics - did some of that when I played volleyball.

    We were talking in class yesterday about golgi tendon organs and how they stopped over-stretch - and I immediately thought about plyometrics and then onto pose.

    if only I didn't have exams in a few weeks I could do a lot of reading!! 

  • Siance: This is poor mans biomechanics. I used Quicktime in in full screen mode to view the vid and the left/right arrow keys to step through 1 frame at at time the acetate was taped to the monitor and copied through and scanned. If I had any money I would use Dartfish or Quintic software and a 100fps camera linked with a force mat, alas.....

    Do not confuse lean with fall. Fall comes from the hips. Take a line through the BOF to hips at frame 10 or 11 on the acetate to get the angle of fall. As your torso progresses past mid stride by momentum your feeet remain behind, this streches your hip flexors which react to bring your lower leg in positon to free fall and land under GCM. Here I am guessing but I think you need to lean forwards a little (See my acetate again) in order to get the balance senses to feel like you are falling, but the actual mechanism is to get the legs to work is the from the hips.

    Bear: BOF and feelings combined with sore calfs suggest heavy landing and eccentric loading on calves due to landing ahead, which suggests "late pull" Focus on pulling is another way of breaking the habit of "striding" there is absolutely NO STRIDE in POSE. Without Vid it is imposible to be sure.

    How does ME work? Better ask Cabletow he had to study the physiology stuff.  Me I'm qualified in now't. I just managed to convince Doc R I could coach POSE.

  • Siance: Thanks for the links. Every time you run POSE you plyo train, but not with the standard depth jumps and boxes.
  • I feel for you Bear, I'm in the throws of a 20,000 word dissertation.. Fed up of reading journals at the mo image

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