Sub 3



  • Mr B Funny that - I think of you whenever I'm 2seconds from the end of a run. Not wishing to play Devil's advocate but what is there to lose by giving it full beans tonight? You've got 5 months to recover if it all goes breasts aloft. HTFU man.

    TR the bullet will be fired about a inch from the centre of your forehead. I could start a list for those wanting to pull the trigger but you know me and lists.

    PtB fair play good nouning.

    pisc your missus says hi ;o)

    As you were.
  • Excellent news Zatu. You know yourself that caution is required for a while.

    Hilly - I'm truly shocked!

    Just a belated response to some of the weekend performances...some fantastic racing (Marders and CW spring to mind, plus OO's non-trained ultra attempt!).

    Ditched any thoughts of joining RB on Sunday as I realised Saturday's 'lunch' out might drag on a few hours...first pint at noon, cocktails at about 10pm and all sorts of nonsense in between meant that an early morning 20 miler wouldn't be happening. In the end, it was a rest day (otherwise known as a raging hangover day).

    On Monday did a steady 5.4 miles at lunchtime, then just over 10 miles with the club including 3 x 10mins off 2mins jog recs. Best session for a long while, managing 5.48, 5.31 and 5.29 paces for the 3 efforts round an undulating route. Happy with that one.

    Legs felt the after-effects this morning though, allied to the fact that gas men started digging up our street at midnight last night (wtf?), so just ran an easy and tired-feeling 45mins. Had planned a second run later, but think I'll just hold what I have and get the feet up for the evening.

  • Hail Hail

    Brian - I've been wondering why everybody has been saying stuff to you when I couldnt see any of your posts.  And I know you've just posted cos I saw your name on the "lasp post" bit.  So it appears as though I've got you on "ignore member" for some reason, and I cant seem to stop ignoring your member, so sorry, but I'm not ignoring your member, its just RW wont let me see your member.  Missus.

  • Hail Hail

    Proper Glaswegian drinking there scobos esp since the pubs dont open til 12.30.  So unless you know different, that'll be drinking in the house oui?

  • The "Saturday's lunch" bit gives it away RB...walked into the pub (a proper Gers one of course) just as the match was kicking off...

  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    CRAB - cant believe that there'd be any takers for a list to pull the trigger !
  • CRAB: It won't be quite as busy down there tonight anyway; for any Luddite who doesn't use Twitter, Liz has got a snuffle. image
  • Hail Hail

    Of course.  I'd forgotten that you're an alky.  Make the most of it - there wont be much more of that once you're off the dole.

  • Why not? Don't the shoe-buying public like a nice dose of booze breath?

  • Is Luddite a new way of saying 'someone who doesn't think people give a sh1t when they have a cup of tea or wake up feeling groggy, or is trying to decide which shoes to wear'. I personally don't need to justify my existence on this planet and journey through this world by pretending people give a fck. FFS Lord give me strength. Mr B you're old enough to know better - act your age not your shoe size.

    And no you won't find (wasting half my waking hours) on fckn Faceache either!

    And relax.

    As you were.
  • Evening all. Just checking in having missed a few days. Firstly, very heartening to read of Zatu's progress.

    Quickly scanned back and looks like congratulations are due to marders (despite getting his 'ematics wrong by 0.3%- maybe a lack of mental strength?), Charlie for another great half with higgly nips, CD, DanA, Brian, CL, JFK, Ode (for a crazy long run). And apologies for any I missed in haste. Also loved LS21's post- presumably a warm up to hosting us all at VLM?

    Still getting the odd mile or two in here, but nothing special.  
  • TRTR ✭✭✭

    DanA - any race photos up yet ?

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    Hello. Don't think I've posted here before (just lurked a bit) image

    We are having a discussion on running calculators (McMillian etc) over on the little sister, sub 3.15 thread. Generally we agree that they are pretty accurate at predicting times between 5k up to HM, but then appear wildly optomistic for Marathon predictions (predicting around 10 mins faster than our pbs).

    A view has been put forward that although our speed at shorter distances is reasonable, we are lacking the endurance to achieve what we should, with regard to Marathons. (A successful campaign for most of us would include 5x 20milers).

    I was wondering, with your greater mileage and endurance base, do you fast people find the calculators accurate predictors of Marathon times, or are they out for you too?

    (All findings will be reported back to eager sub 3.15ers!)

  • TRTR ✭✭✭

    Hello keir - I've never used predictors, but I agree that they seem to be optmistic over 26.2 for most. Most folks just dont have the endurance or run enough miles to make them work. The folks at the pointier end of this thread seem to have a better conversion rate, but those folks can run a marathon at closer to the red line and are the same folks that would go no-where near a 20M build up race (esp 20 at MP).

    IMO most folks on the 3:15 thread (or this thread) that dont run many miles per week, would simply be better served running more miles and doing more like 8 to 10 x 20M as endurance is probably the key limiter. Most folks here would also tell you to run 13M to 15M midweek too. 

  • WardiWardi ✭✭✭

    Keir.. I've been told by a coach that my conversion from short distances (up to half-mara) to the full marathon is pretty good on the evidence of the last 10 efforts.  Nice to be good at something, but it still makes me want to improve the shorter stuff so I guess we're never happy!  FTR I think circa 7-10 20 milers would be more like it, plus a regular 12-15 miler midweek.

    Zatu.. excellent news, very pleased for you.  Just don't let the binlids persuade you to kneel down just yet.

    Mr Boat.. I agree with the majority.  Caution is the best policy, particularly with a niggle that is affected by every step you run.  I side with TR in that an annual break can be a good thing - 2-3 weeks with a few runs, no races, long runs or speedwork.  It helps to re-charge the batteries after a long spell of training & racing.

    Washing machine dept.. I bought one of those luminous bright orange Saucony night vision tops recently.  The washing instructions state (I kid you not) 'wash with like colours'.  WTF!  Like I have a wardrobe full of orange suits just in case I get invited to a baywatch reunion.  I guess I could wash it with TR's singlet if he's ever up this way.  Nice shirt though.

    4.2m on the treadie before work, 7m with the club tonight. 

    P.S.. xpost TR, great minds think alike!

  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Wardi - funny that, I think most folks on here will all post that 8 to 10 long runs and a midweeker is the key.  I'll send the orange singlet up next time its due a wash (should be Apil).
  • CRAB: crikey

    Wardi: Thanks; I will knock the speedy stuff on the head for a few days, get some massage and ultrasound and see how it all is next week. Did  steady 8 tonight with no problems.

  • ptb - could be consistent with tendonitis - as it warms up the gristle will break down to fluid. Some friction massage on the area could help.

    Rich_W - 3:00:40 off of a top week of 25m? Blimey! Do you cross train too?

    Brian - those recoveries sound a bit better, but still a touch session. A sharpener doesn't have to be that tough! How did it go for you?

    Keir - I find the McMillan calculator more than reasonable (range seems to be double HM + 7-10mins), and if anything a little soft the closer you get to the sharper end. I don't think double HM + < 6mins would be that uncommon on here. As others have said though, mileage makes a big difference.

    Cheers for all the comments. Don't worry. Even the xtraining will be rebuilt slowly.

  • I've found a very similar trend with the macmillan calculator. It's accurate for everything up to HM then goes out the window. I guess it's my lack of endurance work!

    On the track again last night






    Averaged 2:23 for 800s and 49s for 300s

    4m recovery this morning

  • Scobos - I know,  Really sorry and well out of character!

  • Keir, I find the opposite - based on 10k times McMillan gives me a marathon time 8-9 minutes slower than is actually the case.  Although I think that says more about how rubbish my 10k speed is than anything else.

    FWIW, there's more than one way of building endurance for marathons - with the odd exception my weekly mileage is around 40, but there's cycling on top of that which is great for endurance.  Others find lots more running miles work for them, and don't see much benefit x-training unless it's because they're injured.

  • I'm still Xtraining Dave, got my arse kicked by Peter Wheddon on Sunday !!!
  • Zatu - excellent news, very pleased for you. I know you are targeting something later next year, but if I were you I wouldn't rule out a spring marathon. You fitness/speed will return quickly and if you try to run a marathon when you are only hitting almost 100% of your potential then you run the risk of breaking down before you get there. Bag a quick marathon even if it's not your long term goal time. People who strive for 100% sometimes don't get there, 97% is a lot easier to achieve and can be rewarding itself.  

    Hill reps last night, second time ever for me. I attempted to keep good form rather than speed.

  • TRTR ✭✭✭

    CD - agreed, Gordo would tell you that the best place to build endurance is on your bike. But that needs backing up with enough impact miles to be able to run strong marathons. How much biking do you do on a typical week ? Weekday turbos ? and a weekend long ride (of how far typically) ?

    wombled a few in my new scoobies, bit achey afterwards but I reckon I got away with that scare.  Best part of a running week lost, but thats better than a big backward step. Back to striving for some consistent consistency.

  • Keir - Poor for me on the conversion. I should be much tighter 2 x HM + 16mins! I don't know if experience helps? I've only run 3 now. The conversion that I'm jealous of is that of RNM - he seems to consistently hit very low 2.40, very strong over the marathon. I also like how CD rocks up and does something really quick!

    Zatu, really pleased your hearing what you want to hear, guess your enthuiasm is something to remember when I get attacked by the CNBA monster! 

    Who's there on sunday then?

    Wardi? Brilly? Njords? RNM? Brian I know is not sure james is going to head over or not and I believe we'll have LS21 spectating (see if he can be my lucky supporter again)

  • CD - your HM to Mara conversion must be very tight then?

    coro - not doing a spring mara is nothing to do with not wanting to do one unless 100% fit. I feel I need to work on my shorter distances to be able to hit the times I want over mara distance as my last conversion was very tight (double HM + 2:54), so once I am back in proper training my aim is to spend spring/summer doing my effort sessions across the 800m-LT pace ranges, before building back up for a mara (though hopefully I'll maintain a high mileage throughout). I'm tentatively considering a 10m/HM as my (late) spring target.

    Waytogoyet wrote (see)
    Zatu, really pleased your hearing what you want to hear, guess your enthuiasm is something to remember when I get attacked by the CNBA monster! 

    You and me both image I've had attacks of the CNBA in the past, but at least I've got a crappy period (hopefully) behind me now to remind me to take my chances as they come, etc.

    I'm going for an aquajog in a couple of hours (but only 30mins - start slowly) image

  • Keir - Macmillan calculator was 8 seconds off for my marathon time based on a 10k done during training. But since this was a solo time trial done on presumably tired legs (not my 10k PB), so that could be the reason for such accuracy. I might try this strategy again before London to see if it was just a fluke.
  • Keir-  I did a few 2 58/259s over a few years off of halfs of 1 26ish.  In 2009 I did 2 53 05 off a half of 1 23 30 a few weeks before.  And contrary to the mythology that you need to run 100mpw, like a fair few others i dont do big mileage.  Never worked out what it means, but the distance I do least well in is 10K. 
  • Zatu - I didn't say "to be 100% fit", I meant "100% of potential time", what you've explained is also the later. I understand that you want to concentrate on the shorter stuff, but I wouldn't be overly concerned about running a 68 min HM or low 31min 10k before next having a stab at a marathon.  We all have different optimum distances (I think mine is 1500m, the same as it was back in 1989!). Sorry to hark back to my weekend training partner, he has never run a 10k or HM and does no speed/LT/tempo work at all but still manages 2:20. He has tried to run fast but simply gets injured quickly. The fastest he now ever runs is during the last mile of our long runs.
  • Zatu, marathon PB  is HM PB x2 + 7 minutes, so not especially tight.  It's distances below 10 mile that I don't do myself justice, 10k pace is only around 20s a mile quicker than marathon pace.

    TR, yes, you're right.  It took me several years of running marathons poorly before I got one right, others with a better mileage base get it right sooner, if not first time.  Biking right now isn't as much as I'd like, but I try & get a hard ride of a couple of hours at least most weekends, plus some weekday turbos.  I used to ride to & from work more but I can't do that much now the kids have moved school.

    Gobi, yes, Peter Wheddon's very good for his age, especially on the bike. 

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