Sub 3

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Comments

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    Thanks for your comments and opinions people. I will feed back to the sub 3.15 thread. I think what you have said confirms the current views expressed by Matchstick Man that we need more than 5x 20 milers and the mid week M Pace runs are the crucial workouts.

    p.s. Hilly - image and you are trusted to work in a school! image

  • RB, I wouldn't want to disappoint you as well. You saw my nads akimbo oop norf anyway.

    Zatu, The session was unbelievably hard!
    Actually did:
    2400 warm-up, and 1600 cool-down.
    1500 @ 16.7
    1000 @ 17.5
    800  @ 18.3
    600  @ 19.0
    2 to 2:30 recoveries
    Ran much quicker than I would've done on the track (the track I use is always windy and cold).

  • My apologies coro. I did indeed misread/misunderstand. To explain a bit more....... there are a number of things at play here for me. One of the primary issues is that I've had 6 weeks of what I would class as good training over the last 14months (sandwiched by the pneumonia and knee problems), and it will be at least another month before I can start to run properly and begin to consider building the mileage up.

    If I had the carrot of a spring marathon I might struggle to hold myself back and up the mileage slowly.
    The other thing is that I am now trying to think past my next mara. I think, as you have intimated, that the mara is indeed my optimum distance, and therefore I want to be able to extract the most I can from it, rather than rushing back from injury and putting in a performance that, though still good, is not within the range that I think I can do.

    For me to do that, I think I need to start working at the shorter/harder paces, otherwise I'm trying to get my mara pace down by attacking it solely with mileage (essentially a 'sledgehammer to crack a nut' scenario). My logic is simply that the more I can improve my leg speed, the comparatively more comfortable other race paces will be as I progress through them, and I can build my endurance at the slower (e.g. LT-MP paces) more comfortably from a leg perspective.
    Essentially, whenever I have tried to start doing MP work in training previously, despite being aerobically fit, my legs would never cover a 10m MP effort in any better than 59-60mins for the first few runs, and then it would start to slowly work it's way quicker. I can always feel on these runs that my lungs can handle the pace easily, but my legs cannot, and I have had to wait whilst my legs get used to running that fast. Doing it this way I hope that it is a case of maximising my endurance at a pace that my legs are comfortable at, as the endurance is the side that comes easiest to me.

    As I go through future cycles it will be much more compact - 4-6 weeks of pre-base speed, 8-10 weeks of base and 8-10 weeks of mara specific, but initially, as I need to rebuild my mileage anyway, it makes sense to me to do that in a more relaxed manner, whilst spending a little longer working on my shorter distance speed for the first cycle than I will need to in later cycles.

    So yes, in a sense it's about improving my potential before I next do one, but if I have my logic right, it will take 4-5 cycles (at least) of training consistently like this before I begin to approach 100% of potential time, and in the meantime I can take my time to build the mileage up slowly over a longer first cycle and actually have some fun racing shorter distances along the way.

  • I know that feeling CD. As per my monster post to coro above, my shorter distance times are sh!te by comparison to my mara.

    Wow Brian. Fair play for getting that done! Hurting today? image

    Right, time to do a little aquajogging image

  • Dan ADan A ✭✭✭
    TR - just for you > there are a couple of photos in the eighth row. Not as glam as I'd hoped. But you can always crop her out if you want one for your wall!

    ZfTT - fingers x'd for you mate. Just don't rush back into it too quickly, which I'm sure you won't.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭

    Keir – although I will add that I did 9 x 20, a 22 and a 23 plus more than 10 midweek runs of 13 to 17M and still had a carp day at VLM. But then I didn’t do much else around these two runs, and didnt go over 40 mpw often enough. I think that 5 or 6 days week is good too, as it puts more impact into your legs.

  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    DanA - good work, you need to challenge her to a rematch in the summer though !
  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    Thats a heavy 2 day run schedule TR. I guess although these are the key sessions, you shouldn't underestimate the importance of consistent running most days. Interesting experiment though in what you can get away with.

    I think I might need to spend a bit more time on this thread. I achieved a 3.09 for my first and only marathon in October and although running a spring marathon, the main focus is on a faster HM time (currently 87.51) before a sub 3 attempt next Autumn.

  • Zatu - so have you been giving running much thought whilst you've been out?image

    Brian my track is cold and windy too, but I think I'm going to jog there shortly, thinking either 6 x 1k or 8 x 800

  • I was rather impressed with my recent conversion from Bristol HM (66:34) which came out at HMx2 +<5mins as it used to be more like 8-10 mins but if going on pbs then it's more like HMx2+7mins which is probably about right. 

    I always find the predictors ok (but generally under estimate) if going up in distance provided I put in something long enough (like my 10k gives me 66 mid and 2:19 mid - I'm sure I'm sub 66 shape now though).  It's going down that is near impossible to match as I should be sub 14:30 and about 8:20 over 3000m which I struggle to get close to.  I guess, rather obviously, the more endurance focussed you are the better your endurance events will be.  I'm sure a proper taper here and there would help shorter times too.

    Good recovery powers Zatu.  Your HM time would be easily improved if you ran one a bit fresher off similar training you were doing I reckon but will make it more interesting to try a different approach.

    Off to try and shake some man flu with a bit of tempo...

  • To belatedly chip in Keir, I feel marathon time predictions tend to be optimistic for many people for several reasons:
    1.  it is qualitatively different from shorter races, because you largely run out of glycogen fuel (the wall)
    2. many (maybe most) people don't train for the full distance; you wouldn't be surprised if you struggled in a half having never done more than 10 in training, yet many never do more than 20 in training for a marathon
    3. combining both of those, many people (me included) have run marathons where the first 22M or so is fine, and then the wheels fall off and the last few miles are disastrously slow (attributed to the wall/cramps/dehydration/overheating/various!)

    My policy now is to do some full- or overdistance training runs, as well as some progressive runs in the lowish-twenties miles range, as only then do I feel my legs are cut out to run the whole way at a reasonable pace without conking out. It seemed to work nicely in my most recent marathon. On the other hand (perhaps paradoxically), I'm also in the low mileage camp -- I averaged maybe 40mpw before London (2:45) and 50mpw for a short while before Abdingdon (2:43). The difference was due to the wheels not falling off at Abingdon, so the whole experience felt a lot better than the small difference in time shows! So I have a lot of days off (maybe 3 days a week), though I do cycle my short (3-4M) commute to work quite hard too.

    For the record, listing my times on powerof10 by age grade still shows I'm weak at marathons compared with 5k-10M type distances. But the marathon has improved.

    Edit: incidentally, I'm indulging in some 'scheduled downtime' after my half on Sunday. Partly to let the calf DOMS go, and partly to see if having a break fixes those pesky niggly hips.

  • Can't think what gave you that idea wtgy image

    I agree marders, but probably not a whole heap quicker. Reading '09 was 9 weeks pre-Edinburgh and my 73:34 was a full effort, so I reckon being fresh at the time might have brought me down to maybe 72, but then again the heat at Edinburgh last year probably cost in the region of 3-5mins (I reckoned 3, coach reckoned 5), so conversion would most likely have been similar, if not tighter. If I can take a big chunk off my HM (and below) this way and still go no worse than double +5-6mins I'll be more than happy - and I think that's more than reasonable. Hope the tempo does the job with the manflu.

    30 mins of gentle aqua jogging. Knee felt awesome. No pain, no clicking, no dead leg/knee afterwards image

  • Keir: "what you have said confirms the current views expressed by Matchstick Man that we need more than 5x 20 milers and the mid week M Pace runs are the crucial workouts"

    I have never done 5x20m, or even close.  And whats so magic about 20 vs 19, or 18, or 16.7?  As TR suggests, its not formulaic, and we should be careful not to think marafuns are painting by numbers.  The best prepped I have ever been for a marathon was VLM10 (at least based on previous 6 months), but I did rather poorly.  To Charlie's list I would add that marathons, in going over 20miles, get into the territory of being very unpredictable, and unforgiving of any weaknesses, and so the potential to go badly is high.  How many of us have blown up in a half (very few) vs marathon (loads)? 

    That rant over, I would strongly endorse the long midweeker. 

  • gotta love some of the things they capture on google street view

    somehow managed 10k tempo @MP during lunch though HR a bit higher than I would want, probably for obvious man flu reasons!  1 lap shy of 10M completed in just over 56 mins which leaves 2 mins either side to get changed and showered and I come in on time (though there's no way I could be that quick!).

    I endorse the long mid week that has a good tempo session in it.  Think I've only ever managed 1 proper mid week long run and I don't particularly like them, but make it a decent session with a long warm up and warm down and they feel so much more rewarding.

  • TRTR ✭✭✭

    Keir – I didn’t mean to run that infrequently, some bad sh*t happened in the family during Feb/March that compromised my training and I still needed to bag bike and swim, so sometimes only bagged the two most important runs/week.
    In short (to quote the great man) INFRS, the more often folks run the better they get. The best folks on this thread run less carp marathons than the ones that don’t run as many miles.

    A local fella won the Gosport ½ mara in 65 mins last weekend, now I see that fella running when I’m running, running when I’m out biking and running when I’m out in the jam jar !

    Running a sub3 has very little to do with leg speed/short distance times and lots to do with endurance (cos when alls said and done its only just under 7 m/m), and lots of the good folks from the 3:15 thread have recently cracked 3hrs with a few more miles, a bit more consistency and some more self belief (cos they had seen some of the others do it too).

  • Kier - my conversion is cr@p, 80 mins for hm to 2:59 for the full.  I am better at short distances, but is it training or genetics?  Don't know!  The midweek 15m did improve my endurance.

    I do know my foot still hurts.  Starting to blame the new work shoes I got a month ago, which coincides with my foot getting worse.  Being a teacher I spend all day standing up (well, from 8 til 3!) so maybe I should buy decent shoes.  Gone back to my old shoes for a few days to see what happens. Hope yours is ok, Mr Boat, and Zatu, are you recovering quickly because you run, or do you run because you recover quickly?

    As ofsted are in I think tonights run mght be sacked off as injury prevention, and I need to empty a bottle (or two) of its contents
  • Zatu, As always, your approach makes sense. I'm sure that you have the focus and the patience to make it work. After last nights treadie session, my groin was tight and was a little concerned.
    But I've just wombled 70mins - 8:10 pace, HRav 124 (66%) with no problems.

    On the conversion debate. My thoughts were similar to the observations made by OS, in that the marathon is a special case, and because of the nature of the beast, a formula just won't be accurate beyond 20 miles. Surely a better way to convert accurately, would be to use statistics obtained from the conversions of elite runners? Of course I'm guessing that the converters do use formula based calculations.
     

  • work got in the way of track so going afterwards - its bitter out though!

    Marders our junior is outside our offices with an industrial bag of toilet roll on his shoulder!

    Zatu goodness knows!

    OS - I always take 20s as 2Xs. At the end of the day we look back at our marathons, our training, and pick holes in it to see what went wrong and try and make it right the next time. I'm looking at more miles all round for next year, and I'm putting together a proper training plan to make it work 

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    What we on sub 3.15 we all finding was that the calculators were quite a long way out for predicting our Marathon times, based on 10k, 10m and HM, which were all pretty consistent and accurate. The question was: are the calculators inaccurate or is our endurance at fault. From the majority of answers here, it appears as if the calculators do work pretty well, but we are not doing enough miles / LSRs / MSRs to cope with the increase in distance.

    Thanks for the good points / tips from many, notably TR and CW. Although I take the point made by OS: 'that we should be careful not to think marafuns are painting by numbers' (and from recent postings the variety of training people have done to break 3 hrs is witness to that) I do think it is helpful for less experienced runners such as myself to have a template plan to work from (eg P&D), tweat according to advice of others (eg you) and adapt with experience.

    Hope all goes well Drifter. We had those b'tards in September.

  • If I'm to run 12/13 tonight and 10 on friday what should i run thursday?  Will do 15 on sunday.  All I've done this week is 5 plus circuit training on monday.
  • OS - completely agree with it not being formulaic. As has often been said on here it's a case of horses for courses. I would certainly agree that a med-long to long midweeker makes a massive difference to endurance, but as you've said, the format of it will be different for different people.

    TR - I agree with your comments re: cracking sub-3, but I've got a hunch that the quicker you go the more benefit you potentially get from working across multiple paces (of course I could be completely wrong, but I guess I'll find out in time).

    marders - that's quality. Wacky Germans, eh? image I liked the mention of the guy sharing the Google office in Munich requesting the building be blurred! image Nice run.

    Drifter - I've always seemed to recover quicker than most people from most things - Mrs Zatu calls me Wolverine image - but certainly the fitter I am, the quicker it seems to happen. The only real flaw I have found so far, as far as my healing 'ability' goes, is anything to do with inflammation - I've got asthma, my pneumonia took longer than normal to clear (despite being fit), I have had to have cortisone injections a number of times over the years for various inflammatory type things (sesamoiditis, bursitis, etc), and this knee thing seems to have primarily been dragged out by inflammed tissue behind the knee cap (but also partially debris in the joint).

    Glad to hear there's no damage and that the womble appeared to sort you out Brian!

  • R33 - without wishing to appear unhelpful...... how long is a piece of string? It all depends what paces you are running at today/Friday, what you hope to achieve from both of those and the Thursday run, etc, etc. You're really the only person able to work that out.
  • Keir, Sorry I didn't give you my data.
    My 10k/10M/HM times equate to 2:51/2:49/2:50 respectively (Mcmillan)
    My mara is 2:54.
    I do at least 5x20+ incl a 22. My midweeker tends to be 12-13 with 9 or 10 within 30s of target MP.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭

    TT – Agreed, I’m talking about folks that are trying to run high 2:50’s for the first time, not folks at your pointier end.

     
  • MtRMtR ✭✭✭

    My conversions are pretty OK as well:

    5k/10k/10M/HM point to 2:57, 2:54, 2:50 and 2:49

    Marathon PB is 2:51.

    Which to me illustrates that I still have work to do on my endurance, as otherwise I tend to get relatively faster as the distance increases.

    I'm not convinced by CW's arguments in favour of over-distance training. The critical issue for me with glycogen depletion and/or muscle fatigue in the last few miles of a marathon is running at MP. Going at lower speeds is much less faiguing and draw less on glycogen reserves and allow better asorption of nutrition. Yet the fast runs of 20+ miles require too much recovery. My solution is fast finish long runs of about 20 miles, either run progressively, or just with a faster last 5 miles - getting some MP (or quicker) miles done when in a glycogen-depleted and fatigued state.

    And I'd echo the recommendations for a midweek long run. Made a massive difference to me.

  • Aye TR. I gathered that was what you meant, but just thought I'd state it explicitly.

    MtR - very long runs/over distance do have a place in my book, as do fast finish long runs, as do effort long runs, and as do your standard time on feet very easy long run. I think people need to think about progression for long runs, rather than just thinking of them on a week by week basis. We typically plan progression into our sessions to generate a more appropriate response as we get closer to our target race, but how many of us think of long runs in terms of the same type of progression to generate a race-specific improvement?

  • Zatu, I realised after I'd written it, (and probably while I was writing it) just how vague I was being.  It will be a recovery run on thursday I just wondered how many miles I should safely do without risking injury. 

    Also, I'm not planning on breaking 3 hours until VLM '11, will running the distance at Liverbird Double on New years eve be counter-productive?  I wouldn't be racing it, just getting the miles in the bank.  It will also be a massive help in keeping me focused (and, more to the point, sober) during the christmas period.  I'm also possibly going to run the Gin Pit Double, again, only one 26.2 on March 12th.  Again just to get the miles in and as a focus.  

    Any advice from anyone please? 

  • MtRMtR ✭✭✭

    Zatu: Totally agree about progression of long runs.

    My plan is normally something along the lines of:

    Jan: Miles on feet 3x 20+ milers, not bothered about pace at all.
    Feb: 1xHM, 3 long runs, one easy. one of them fast finish/progressive, one club 20.
    Mar: 1xHM, 3 long runs, one easy, one fast finish, one 23-24 miles easy

  • TRTR ✭✭✭

    i dont plan anything.........maybe thats my problem

    Drifter - I had to buy new (wider) work shoes, every day shoes, running shoes and cycling hsoes to get on top of the Mortons Neuroma I had (only feel it during a long run nowadays), so dont underestimate the need for the right shoes. If you are on your feet all day I'd get a pair of the Clarks Cornish Pasties that my English teacher used to have.

  • TR - I plan then ignore it and do what I fancy. Having said that, being part of a coaching group may well change all of that.
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