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  • You can't have a negative split and time in the bank O2, that's not how it works!  I'd also say that if you're going to experiment then forget about target times, other than the fall-back 3 hours.  If you run an even or -ve 2:52 then job done I'd say.  1:26 or 1:27 first half sounds about right, but the main thing for me would be to make sure the first few miles are at that pace or slower, rather than 6:15s.

    Great job there ES, nice to get that result after Boston.

    And great result too CW.  Did you work out beforehand that if you ran that pace pretty evenly that you'd be going for 4 hours, or was it a case of avoiding burning matches early and see how it goes?

    For me, the lesson learned at the weekend was that if I'm not going to do a great deal of cycling over the winter (at least compared with previous years), then rocking up at a 100 mile sportive in May, even intending to take it easy, is not going to be pretty.  Brighton and back on sunday - getting there was fine, the return leg turned into a bit of a grind, stiff neck/shoulder muscles and lactate-loaded legs.  On the plus side it didn't rain and I was back home with the family by lunchtime. 

  • CW - fantastic performance at WFL, hats off to you, that's some great running so soon after London.

    OO - correct decision re; Barcelona, you won't regret it. Will hopefully see you in Valencia ('surprise present permitting'). With regards to pacing, my PB in London was a negative split but I finished feeling like I had more in the tank. I think it's the way to go but it's a very hard balance to find between too easy and just about right. 

    lmh - get that entry in! 

    Swam in an olympic sized pool in Monaco this morning (they have amazing facilities here) and will go for an easy hour or so tonight if I get off work at a reasonable time.
  • TippTopTippTop ✭✭✭
    CD - I think OO was weighing up the two approaches (as in he normally banks time, but is considering trying for a negative split).

    OO - if you usually bank time then I'd be inclined to use it to try something different. Whether that's even, or a slight negative split is up to you but it sounds like a perfect chance to experiment. What's the course like?

    LMH - ironically on the last set of tests they lost the ferritin results, so I only know that the folate and B12 are fine. I'll have the full set of tests redone in a couple of weeks to confirm, but I'm generally feeling better in myself so expecting them to be back up. Hopefully things pick up for you soon.
  • LS21LS21 ✭✭✭
    Greetings one and all,

    LMH - glad to hear there's been no adverse reaction to your long run. Fingers crossed you're over the worst of it now!

    Dan - glad you enjoyed your golf trip. How's the Marathon clock fridge magnets idea progressing? This time next year we'll be millionaires etc etc.

    SL - nice cross-training!

    JB - cracking parkrun time that! Sub-17 soon by the looks.

    CW - reasonable. Absolutely cracking in fact. You're an aerobic monster!

    Nice to see TR and TT posting too.

    So, update on my feebleton limb. I did go to see the osteo but didn't really get anywhere TBH. So almost out of desperation I've been to see another physio this aft - one in Carlisle on a couple of friends' recommendation. He's done quite a lot of work with UK Athletics, was on their medical team for London 2012, the 2014 Commonwealth Games, various World Champs etc., so used to dealing with runners. Especially reet fast ones like me.

    Anyway, firstly he scanned my hammy - I've torn it. Not terribly and there's not a massive bleed there, but I've got a tear. Prob what happened at 23 miles by the looks, which explains why I 'ran' down The Mall like Herr Flick from The Gestapo. So that needs to heal. Not too bad - maybe 10-14 days or so.

    Secondly this nerve/arse/glute/hammy thing. He did a few diagnostic tests - laying flat on my back, leg straight testing how far he could raise my leg before it hurt (about 30 degrees!!). Then on my front, him pressing quite hard on the hammy to gauge level of pain (ouch), then asking me to curl my leg up towards my arse while he resisted the movement (that last one hurt a lot). He then spent a long time manipulating and doing stuff on my back. After that he repeated those diagnostic tests - difference was really surprising. I had more than double the range of movement in my leg (almost 90 degrees), had no pain when he compressed it and it was fine doing the curls!

    So it seems the source of my issue is my back I think (again!) So feeling much more optimistic. Will still be out of action for a wee while, but I think I know why it happened now and also potentially how to try and stop it happening again (I have back exercises to do). So we'll see. Prob write May off, build up again in June and then a 12ish week programme for Abo. That's the plan, so we'll see.
  • JoolskaJoolska ✭✭✭
    Glad you've got some proper answers now, LS21.  And if it's a mild tear then at least you'll be back running fairly soon (once you've begun to address the back issues so that the problem doesn't come straight back!).
  • That sounds very positive LS21 - make sure you do the exercises! I've still got very limited movement in my right knee but it's all definitely heading in the right direction.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • OuchOuchOuchOuch ✭✭✭
    Good news LS21. 
    LMH - Suspect Yeovil marathon will be one too far: feel I am dodging the injury bullet. 
    Dan A -  Marathon fridge magnets -  Christmas and birthday rolled into one. Yes.
    Thanks for the - split advice. Is the way to go - especially for a big city marathon and will try at Exeter when most likely overtaking a few ducks and a dog.
    Talking of 11m y'day with 3m > 5.50 mm with the pooch. Not bad as running with her  lead and umm bag of scooby doo. 
  • OuchOuchOuchOuch ✭✭✭
    Got to put a target out there so at the mo:
                  1st half             2nd half
    (a) 1.26.30 - 1.27 and >1.27 so 6.35mm /6.32mm - the pace for the 2nd half of my last 2 maras.
    (b) even paced 1.27 and 1.27
    (c) gone wrong but still OK 1.27 and > 1.32

    So go easy for the first half and gently speed-up. Sounds easy!
  • CharlieWCharlieW ✭✭✭
    OuchOuch -- I'm with LMH and CD; even pacing (or slight -ve split) is the way to go. As well as optimising your performance, it feels a hell of a lot better than overcooking it and then hanging on miserably for dear life at the end. Less DOMS too, I reckon.

    CD -- wow, that's a big ride, well done. And on WfL I had a big spreadsheet to figure out what WAVA% and pace would get me what distance, and aimed a touch lower WAVA-wise than London. Seemed about right.

    LS21 -- sounds like a great physio session, all looking much more optimistic now. Nice!

    Tried a 1M test jog this morning and found my legs were more wooden than I realised -- will try again in a day or two. Off on a training course jolly (to... Milton Keynes) for the next couple of days, so good luck to any weekend racers (OO?).
  • That's a shame but understandable OuchOuch - no need to decide yet though. I may be able to talk you into pacing me:-)

    I'm not sure I'd consider MK much of a jolly Charlie - Joe's Monaco sounds much better - but each to their own:-)

    Physio last night showed how restricted the mobility still is in my right knee but she gave me the go ahead to run Yeovil. I'm not committing just yet though as she thought the 10k on Sunday may cause a bit of an adverse reaction so I'll wait and see what happens.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • TippTopTippTop ✭✭✭

    LS21 - sounds positive! I had similar experiences when I first saw my chiro. Ridiculous how much of a difference it can make.

    LMH - would you not be better off taking a break and letting it fully recover, or is there a reason not to?

  • I seem to recover quicker when I keep moving TippTop. I took the week off after London but it's been since I started running again (with physio's approval) that real improvements have been seen.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • TippTopTippTop ✭✭✭
    I can understand that LMH. I hurt my knee on the weights a few weeks back, and it's still a bit sore, but less so when I run. Particularly when I run quicker.

    Referencing earlier comments, I'm in the midst of changing both club and coach, Figured I needed to do something different on the coaching front to get to where I want to be, but also the new club will see a new marathon group being formed, which is, hopefully, going to be a huge boost to me.
    Also the new coach has some interesting ideas, not least of which is that I've built up so much mileage over the previous 10 years that I am probably looking at diminishing returns and need to work at a higher intensity over shorter runs - over 10 years of running I've averaged ~63mpw of running (not counting being injured/ill for about a 1/4 of that), which will essentially see me do less volume (peaking in the 80s), but also running a lot quicker. Interesting times!!!
  • PadamsPadams ✭✭✭
    TT - that's exciting news. I agree with your new coach - I'm still running reasonably well off 30-40 mpw, and I put that down to the 10 years prior of doing bigger volume, and about 20 consecutive years of pretty hard training in various forms just building a good aerobic capacity and strength.

    LS - good to hear you have a plan. Interesting that a bit of manipulation can increase the range of motion so much!

    OO - good luck in the marathon. 1:26:30ish for the first half sounds like a sensible plan.

    10k this evening in the first midweek league fixture. Will certainly get thrashed by my clubmate but hopefully he'll help me around to 9k before taking off. Depends on who else is there - might be a bit more tactical if there are some others in the lead group.
  • Padams, TT, hmmmm, so I need a few more years of high mileage before adopting the low mileage / high intensity approach around 2023 :smile:

    Went out for 4M yesterday and another 6M today. Recovering far quicker than I have done for any previous marathon.
  • OuchOuchOuchOuch ✭✭✭
    TT - Be interested how your new regime develops and what typical weeks look like, as peaking in 80's is still pretty good high mileage.   
    My marathon is on the 21st so about to a 10 day detox - though precious left to tox-out.  10m - split trial last night, 5 m out in 7.15 mm and 4 back @ mp 6.40 which felt exhausting whereas a 1* 6.20 mm felt so much easier!.
  • PadamsPadams ✭✭✭
    ES - my 20 years isn't all running. 4 years of rowing training (much more intense and more hours per week than I've done since), periods where I've focused on cycling etc.

    Very painful run last night but fairly pleased with the result. I knew my clubmate was going to essentially pace me around (he's probably in about 31 min shape at the moment) so I went with him when he went off hard. We went through the first km in about 3:05 and had started to open up a gap to the rest. 2km in 6:11 I think and we were well away by that point. The first half is net downhill that was helping and we went through 5k in about 15:55. I knew at that point I was working too hard and was going to pay for it later! Held it together fairly well to 7km in about 22:30, but the last 3km is all slightly uphill and my legs were going. Mate was waiting for me and encouraging me along but I had nothing left. 8km was about 25:55, then the last 2km must have taken about 7mins as I crossed the line in 32:55 (2nd place about 10s behind my mate).

    The positives are:
    - my fastest time on that course is 32:44, and that was in 2009 when I was in the best shape I've ever been in (ran 2:29 at Edinburgh in very windy conditions).
    - my fastest 10k for a few years
    - the course is very undulating, so I'd expect to be in the low 32s on a flatter course.

    I was pretty ruined at the end though including a tight lower back (probably due to the downhills). It feels OK this morning though - did 3M with the dog and felt OK, just not a lot of bounce in the legs!
  • TippTopTippTop ✭✭✭
    Padams - I fully get the logic of what she's doing, but it is taking a leap of faith. Having said that I need to do something different to get some motivation and kick on, and if it works anywhere near as well for me as it is for you I'll be happy. And on that note, great run last night!

    ES - sounds like you're recovering incredibly well.

    OO - no typical week as such, but it's 3 weeks base/rebuilding, 7 weeks 10k focus, 10 weeks specific.
    10k focus has a MLR (sometimes with a 5 minute pickup/surge), but no long runs, 2-3 workouts (typically 5k, 10k, LT or race), some shorter double days (4m, 4-7m), and some short (10-20 second) hill-sprints, or 30s surges dotted around runs throughout the 7 weeks.
    Specific phase has a longer run with some efforts or a faster finish (or a split long run double workout - e.g. 21-24m for the day, split in two, but with efforts in both runs), MLR, mixed pace, or 10k/LT sessions, occasionally surges or hill-sprints, and still with the shorter doubles on in between days.
    The idea is for the shorter doubles (and some of the other general runs) to be run at MP+10% if feeling good, so not hanging around.
  • HA77HA77 ✭✭✭
    Sorry to butt in TT. I lurk on here a bit but rarely post. I'm usually on the P&D thread.

    Your plan looks similar to what I did leading up to London this year, although I was sort of forced into it due to lack of time with the arrival of another baby. I didn't have time to do many long runs so decided to make Wednesday a big day - 9-10 miles at lunch, often with 3-4 miles MP-HMP, then 12-13 miles in the evening including a club track session. I ran the track sessions slower than if they were a stand alone session and also did a few targeted evening sessions replacing the club session. It felt like I did a lot of MP running on tired legs. Other than the Wednesday double, the only other hard session was a weekly 9-11 mile tempo, progression or fartlek. I averaged 55 mpw, with only one run over 20 miles. 

    Anyway, it went really well and I ran 2:34 with a 30s negative split after running 2:40 last year following P&D (averaging about 75 mpw). I don't think it would've been as successful however without the all long runs I'd done in the past.

    I plan on doing something similar next spring but will put more thought and planning into the program to make it more specific. I think it may be very similar to your plan, with a 10-12 week specific program off the back of shorter cross country focus. I'll be interested to see how you get on.
  • Padams - wow, fantastic 10K - that must have been a huge confidence boost! You were typically understated in your previous post as well, describing yourself as "running reasonably well". I'd say a sub-33 10K is running bloody quick :)

    TT, that sounds like an intensive plan, and there doesn't seem to be much recovery built in! I suppose you would run the shorter doubles at recovery pace if needed?

    Day off for me today, I'm in no hurry to start pushing myself.
  • OuchOuchOuchOuch ✭✭✭
    Thanks TT / HA77 - I found that interesting, as currently considering the options if I want to get significantly faster at marathon, I can either increase my mileage,  invest in getting quicker at 5K/10K, increase cross-training, cut off an arm, mix of above.
    Congratulations Padams, a great neigh on 8 year PB. Solid effort.  
  • Nice racing Padams.

    Interesting change of focus TippTop.

    I'm getting excited about my visit to your neck of the woods OuchOuch but guessing you're not going to be up for a long run? 

    Best run since before I was hit by the car this morning - it's been a while since I couldn't feel either of my knees whilst running. Hope it lasts!
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • PadamsPadams ✭✭✭
    ES - it's all relative. My mate was virtually running backwards in front of me for the last km, encouraging me to keep up. And he only finished 68th in the Trafford 10k in 31:31...

    TT - it will be good to have a change in strategy, and I reckon what you described might work very well for you.

    LMH - excellent news!
  • Race JaseRace Jase ✭✭✭
    TT - how is Renato? ;-)

  • TippTopTippTop ✭✭✭
    HA77 - interesting. Though, having said that, unlike you, I don't have masses of long, unbroken, MP in my specific phase. That's partially because my HM and MP paces are so close I always find MP a bit of a grind on the legs for any decent length. From a quick look, I've got a HM as part of a long run, and one big session (6m@MP, 1m @ 10k, 4m @ MP, 1m @ 10k) as the only time I run further than 7m continuous and fast over 10 weeks.

    ES - less mileage = higher intensity and less recovery. If I was doing extra mileage it would be all recovery.

    LMH - great news!!!

    RJ
    - that was my reaction when I saw some of her ideas. She's a big fan of Steve Magness who, of course, counts Canova amongst his influences. I've got the book and am working through it. Great read so far.

    This week was a slightly inauspicious start though as I spent the first few days migraine afflicted, so until today I only had 3 x 4m runs in the bag. Felt better today though, so 15m with the first 14m @ 6:57, and the last mile @ 5:57 (supposed to be current MP, but I was a bit ahead of that). LT on the grass in the park in the morning to look forward to!
  • Little M.iss HappyLittle M.iss Happy ✭✭✭
    edited May 2017
    It's quiet on here.

    I ran a rubbish 10k today - over forty minutes whereas last year I ran 38.52 at this race (though it was five weeks after London rather than three). On the way home I decided that running Yeovil was just stupid as the reason to do it would be to try to get the time I thought I was on for at London before I fell over. Much as I may enjoy just turning up and running round it involves a long drive, overnight stay etc so it's really not worth it, it also means that I would be looking to run a last big week when we are on holiday in Cornwall. Mark thinks that the race being two weeks earlier is the main reason I ran so badly today and is supportive of me trying for a big week whilst we're on holiday and of my doing Yeovil. I'm thinking I may be better off accepting that I've flogged the horse as much as I can, taking a few easy weeks then refocusing for Robin Hood. What do you think?

    I should probably add that I have had some better runs this week and have started to see mile times that I was before my fall - which was encouraging - but I was looking for a confidence boost at today's race and obviously didn't get that.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • WardiWardi ✭✭✭

     LMH.. at circa age 50 I think you/Mark are probably right about flogging the horse etc. It's the recovery time that starts to increase as we get older.  I think 3 weeks post marathon is just a bit too soon to run a brisk 10k so you've most likely run as well as you could.  A few easy weeks should also help the healing process of your impressive variety of war wounds!

    TT.. hope the change reaps dividends for you. Any target races in the near/far future?

    Padams.. excellent racing for 2nd & impressive to get so close to your best time.  I was lead bike at my local 10k on Tuesday for over 400 runners, the winner just broke 34 mins so you & your mate would've cleaned up there!

    RJ.. nice to see you dropping in. Are you doing Berlin again?

    I've managed to rack up 58 miles this week without particularly trying, most I've done for a while.  After a couple of 4 milers yesterday either side of work I had a nice 12.3m run in the sun/breeze today.  I feel a lot better now my iron levels are recovering, paces are much better and I'm enjoying the runs more.  

  • OuchOuchOuchOuch ✭✭✭
    LMH - Your massively disrupted run-up to London, the fast time you run and lack of  recovery must largely explain todays race - run only a little slower - than last year.  The positives must be a 40 mins 10K is a good run on its own terms. I don't know how many runners do the Robin Hood race but numbers running Yeovil fast will be sparse.  A weeks holiday is manna from heaven to put the miles in and properly recover.
    Excellent mileage Wardi and good to see your mojo and iron levels have returned in force.
    8m for me today, generally easy with 4 yasso's between 2:53-2.56 which was fine considering running  on grass - seems the Exeter marathon route is not completely finalised nor its start time (9am/9.30). It is Exeter though which is a pretty laid back kinda place - sure it will be all-right on the night. 
  • I think you're right Wardi - unfortunately. Good to hear you're feeling better.

    Thanks OuchOuch. Love the laid back attitude of the Exeter organisers - and you! I think the thing is that I wanted to do Yeovil to get a good time and I'm not sure that's going to happen (not that we ever are) so whilst my running is getting better a break now, mentally and physically, and an attempt at a time at Robin Hood (it's a big race) is probably the more sensible option otherwise it's going to be full on for the whole year.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • PadamsPadams ✭✭✭
    LMH - sensible to have a bit of a break (mainly mentally). Doing another marathon now would be a bit of a knee-jerk reaction and probably not best in the long term.

    Quiet on here over the weekend, guess you were all busy training/racing or even doing other non-running activities!

    Didn't do a lot of running myself, just a few miles with the dog both days and 44M on the bike yesterday - didn't make it in time to meet my usual group so was on my own. Managed to average very nearly 20mph on a reasonably hilly route which was quite hard work, and the 3M with the dog straight after didn't feel too pleasant!
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