Sub 3

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  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited January 25
    OO - great run, top performance on a tough day. Sometimes the uncontrollables mean performance matters more than target time.

    Dan - happy birthday, I'll have a beer in your name later.

    Padams - press ups are tough with your long levers.

    Just some easy miles yday, my quads had been achy since getting so cold and wet on Sundays run. But I was back on it like a car bonnet today with a 12m (inc BAC 16min, 4x4min, 16min) and 8m commute, so 20m for the day.
  • Mega miles TR! Especially on a school day.

    Nice report OuchOuch.

    Physio yesterday - she thinks I have some kind of post viral fatigue and that my legs are also objecting to the time off, I don't generally react well to rest but had no choice with this bug. She said she had never seen my legs like it, neither glute was firing at all and lots of tight spots. I've had a good going over, need to do some glute activation exercises and get out and run, pushing through it (within reason).
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • Dan - belated birthday wishes. Hope the snot and groin strain bugger off. 

    Pug - no carbs, no thanks :) 

    Padams - I hate the wind full-stop. I once got off my bike on a commute home as I was faster walking it alongside me than actually trying to ride it. 

    OO - Great report and nicely managed racing by looks of it. Annoying that same guy pipped you though :)

    TR - serious days work there mate, fair play. 

    LMH - hope the diagnosis and specific exercises prove beneficial. Always better to have things to target and hopefully see improvements from. 

    Easier week so rest Weds and Today with a 10 last night. Thankfully the 10's are at last feeling comfortable. Heart rate moving in the right direction too. I wouldn't say shelling peas just yet but getting there, slowly. 

  • CharlieWCharlieW ✭✭✭
    I'm on the thick white bread sandwich stage now. My legs seemed worryingly wooden on the way home on Weds but were OK for a little tune-up mile round the park earlier, so I'm all set for the ultra tomorrow.

    TR -- great double there.

    OO -- nice report, it sounds very chilled (well not in a thermal sense)

    LMH -- hope you're firing on all glutes soon.
  • TR - hahaha... " back on it like a car bonnet today " that made me chuckle lol.

    LMH - Sounds like you're proper fatigued there and that virus has taken it out of you bigtime...

    CW - So cruel... I could just go a sarnie now...

    Well Atkins Day 4 today... and the 6 mile today at 7.30 pace was hard... zero carbs in body for a couple of days now so burn baby burn is all I can say to the fat... fingers crossed it'll work this time. Swore I wouldn't do Atkins after doing 15 weeks of < 20g of carbs per day last year... that was proper hard... but just feel I need to sacrifice some training for 4 weeks! Might do a park run tomorrow morning if I can be bothered getting out of bed... we shall see...

  • PadamsPadams ✭✭✭

    TR - correct, I am definitely not built for press-ups! Just a bit of a challenge really. Soon I'll have to move onto 2x20 or something, and eventually some sets of 20 in the morning and some in the evening. Not sure I'll make it to 365 though as I think I'd need to be doing a load at work!

    Very nice double by the way, especially with the MP efforts.

    Dan - happy birthday, hope you had a good one.

    OO - enjoyed the report. To be honest the thought of 25C is very appealing at the moment, even if I had to run in it.

    Pug - I'm impressed with your restraint, but wouldn't it be more sensible just to cut back a bit overall and be able to keep training better? I think I'd be useless without carbs and would probably just get ill if I tried to keep up the training at the same time.

    LMH - doesn't sound great, but maybe some very easy jogging might get the glutes firing again without any strain on your CV/immune system.

    6M steady yesterday and will try to fit in another 6M later, but mini-Padams has got an eye infection (on top of the never-ending cough/cold) so today has been disrupted by going to the doctor etc.

  • Padams - Problem is, I've not got the time for dilly dallying around... and weight because I've been a yoyo for years... just doesn't come off normally... I have to go extreme hence Atkins... Also, just want the next to final stage off ASAP... so will to sacrifice a little training for losing weight. My theory being is, I'd gain more in speed over 4-5 weeks of weight loss than I could in training if the weight loss enabled me to lose a stone.
  • Hope mini-Padams is better soon.

    Have a good one tomorrow Charlie.

    I'm with SJ - couldn't give up carbs, I'm a total carb monster.

    Well this morning I woke up and my calves didn't hurt - that hasn't happened for weeks! Walked the dog and did my glute activation before heading out for a run and it felt so different, definitely not 100% but loads better. Left hamstring tight and niggly and my left adductor joined in on the way round but it still felt good. Physio (she's great at replying to emails) says adductor is because of the hamstring and I'm not to stretch it but keep up with the glute and hamstring stuff and keep running. I'm just hoping that everything still feels ok in the morning, I've run about as many miles this month as I would normally in a week.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • OuchOuchOuchOuch ✭✭✭
    On carbs I am with the restraint vs zero carbs camp. Saying that just finished off a Christmas fruit cake I've been casting longing eyes at for a month. 

    Good luck CW. Its going to be epic. 
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited January 26
    Padams - agreed, sets well away from failure is the way to get the volume. You can alternate sets with crunches or squats too. I still do this stuff (inc pull ups, where is NS2? He used to post chin up volume).

    Pug - some carbs would be better so you can train properly, which will enable you to train and lose weight.

    Hope you go well CW

    LMH- good news then. See where you are in a few weeks. I have the opposite going on, I'm doing bigger weeks than some of last year's months.

    Just some easy miles today, my legs were tired after yday.

    The Southampton cricket training sessions have changed to Tuesday and Sunday (afternoon luckily), from Tuesday and Wednesday as the intensity is builds towards the upcoming season. This means I can run a couple of commutes a week now, so vlm is looking likely now (unless i have a shocker at worthing), hence ydays 20m (which I will move to a Wednesday after worthing).
  • WardiWardi ✭✭✭
    edited January 26
    LMH.. pleased to hear some better news for you.

    TR.. top midweek running yesterday.

    Ah Charlie, the doorstop sized jam sarnie is brought out, must be a long distance event coming up  :) - best of luck & hope it's not too windy out there.

    OO.. loved reading that, quite tempted given the temperatures here!  Probably change my mind when I think of slogging through 23 degrees at 22 miles though  :/
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    LMH - btw, once you have got back to it a bit, you could do worse than the 7days of 10M I did between Boxing day and NYD.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited January 26
    Hywel Towel (Davies) does an advent running block where he adds 1km every day in December, although he does a minimum of 10k in the first 10 days, and then does 11km on 11th, 12km on 12th etc right up to 31km on 31st. But its a lot of long runs towards the end of the month.
  • Hey guys I'm new on this thread and thus wanna ask how best to tackle the 3968 of pages of sub 3 advice!! Reading that lot will probably take longer than my entire marathon training program. I have training questions but I'll post them separately :-) 
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited January 27
    Stu - this is the 2nd thread, there is another to read first!

    8m today, 68m for the week. 10 weeks on since gosport 1/2, I've run every day except Christmas day of that 10 weeks.
  • Stu - firstly don't expect to find much advice in the 3968 pages! Where are you now, which race are you aiming for, how many marathons have you done with what result off what training?

    Consistent consistency TR!
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • Thanks guys. Brighton Marathon 15 April is first target of the year. Second is Warsaw in Sept. However saying that I was only going to focus on Warsaw for the sub3 attempt but figure there is no harm in trying at Brighton too if I arrive on the start line fit and healthy. I squeaked under 3 in London 4 years ago but want to get back to that level. Turning 40 this year which is another motivator to turn back time. My weekly training miles will definitely be less than 4 years ago as back then I was training for ultras and the sub3 was such a by-product of training rather than an end goal. This time around I'm thinking I can train more intelligently and just ensure that each run really counts.

    So are there people on this thread who believe that you can train well not through high volume but through quality over quantity where I'm talking much greater emphasis on speed work and marathon pace long runs. And if I was to ask what are your THREE must do sessions in a week what would those three be? 

    Thanks guys. 
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited January 27
    Stu- there are pleny on here running well under 3 hrs over 40, so it's defo doable. For me 2:5X isn' about speedwork or quality, that's for the pointer end. But even the pointy end is more about miles. Run as many (mostly easy) miles as you can reasonably build around your life and can maintain consistently and you will improve. So your 3 "sessions" would be long run, medium run and another double digit run, strength (miles) trumps speed if you are a sub3 hopeful imo.
  • Sorry Stu - I'm in the older and more easy miles camp too.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • Pugheaven™Pugheaven™ ✭✭✭
    edited January 28
    Stu - In my opinion you can run sub 3 off 40 miles per week but for me... you have to have that long run... start at 12 and add a mile per week... to at least 18... preferably 20. While building upto that long run make sure you do another double digit run mid week. A mix of fast and slow runs and maybe use fartlek within that second longer run!

    Once at that stage then get a couple of faster runs in say two 5 miler in where you push hard and then try and get a 10 miler in the mid week for the 40.

    Also at this point you may be able to add another run for more mileage...

    Many people will have differening ways and we all train and react differently... so its a matter of plucking out what works and what worked in the past.

    Core advice is... run long, run medium and run short fast during a week...

    I've ran 2.48 bad run with guts (and a 1.16 half) off 42 mile per week... some people need more mileage. All depends on what type of runner you are really...

    Just read every ones advice and pull the bits out that make sense...
  • OuchOuchOuchOuch ✭✭✭
    Also feel much more comfortable and confident on running sub 3's being in the more miles the better camp (average 65 mpw)....top 3 runs for me would be: 
    Weekly 20 - 22 miles - as many as poss and ideally progressive
    5k speed session - as fast as you can. 
    10m with 6 of those at target mp - 10-15 secs
    and don't forget the marginal gains - diet, sleep, running on grass to avoid injury, keeping to a strategy etc.
    TR - Great 20m, back in the game.
    12m recovery run for me, a few more miles than ideal but couldn't pass up he chance to run in the wind and light drizzle again. 

  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited January 28
    20m on tired legs today. Coped well. I'm up to terminal velocity (or volume) now so hopefully my quads will settle down. Chichester 10k next Sunday.
  • Are you planning a lighter couple of days ahead of the race TR? I managed 20 today too but I'm a long way from where I was/would like to be - at least I'm running again.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • Ultra Disco StuUltra Disco Stu ✭✭✭
    edited January 28
    Thanks for your insight TR on your preferred training methods for a sub3. 


    I posted this question below before I then refreshed my feed and saw your other responses so thank you all for those :-). I'll leave the second question here though..... 
    So let me ask the question another way if I may....  What is the one thing that you feel makes the biggest difference between someone training for a sub3 and someone training for 3.30 or 4. Do you believe that greater volume is an essential component of sub3 training plan, that without doing 60+ mile weeks you reduce your chances of success. Or is sub3 success about 'harder sessions' e.g. Greater speed or intensity in the sessions you complete. 

  • Thanks too OuchOuch and PugHeaven for good advice and a break down of your runs. That's really helpful. Yes I like the progressive run approach in my longer runs as I really feel that toughens the body and mind for want is to come in the sharp end of a marathon. 18 miler planned this afternoon. I always start off not knowing what pace I will run at. See how the body feels first, warm up and then crank it up. 
  • I don' do any speed work (I tend to break if I try) Stu so rely on the increased mileage, it was this that took me sub three for the first time at 49 years of age.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • Wow first sub3 at 49!!! That's epic LMH. Nice work. Well that shows that speed work isn't necessary to get quick in the marathon. I enjoy speed work and intervals so will certainly still incorporate that into a weekly schedule but on the balance of advice so far I will put in some slower runs to increase overall training volume. 
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited January 28
    Stu - if you want to do some speedwork then do it. I'm just saying it' not neessary. Folks can progress up the times by simply repeating the same training anyway, you get fitter by backing up campaigns. However I bet there arnt many folks running 3.45 off 75mpw, but i bet there are plenty runni g sub3. My point is it' irrelevant how fast someone can run the club interval session on a Tuesday, if they havnt done sufficient long runs and double digit runs.

    LMH - nicely salvaged, still time for 10 more 20s yet too (or about 30 more at the rate you can pop them out). Will ease down later this week, but more so the following week for Worthing.
  • saintjasonsaintjason ✭✭✭
    edited January 28
    Interesting reading various thoughts on the ingredients for sub3. 

    Stu - I have only run 5 marathons but 3 of them were sub3 (I still count Manchester '09 despite it being 300m short!). My thoughts on what made the difference for me are basically more miles so I am in agreement with many here. In the past I have run most of my runs progressively which always seemed to help, confidence especially. However, I'm struggling with that this campaign as I'm heavier and appear to be slower across all sessions compared to 2 years ago. Sadly, my work/life balance is messed up so I'm an intermittent campaigner which is why I've never got close to converting a couple of sub 80min half times. 

    Easier week so only a 15 today. Had some thoughts about extending it but got a headache and tired a bit so kept it at 15. 

    January went 13, 15, 17,15 with a 10 miler during each week and a few miles at sub3 pace. Averaged 40 mpw throughout Jan so upping the long run and adding another easy session should see me get up to 50 mpw throughout Feb. 

    I have to be happy with that since I didn't have any build-up before Xmas so January has effectively been my miles in the bank to toughen up my legs. 

    P&D says 10 miles w/ 5 @ HMP on Tuesday. I'm getting nowhere near that so will run to HR again so its hard enough. With 10 weeks to go I will only have Wilmslow as any indicator of form. 


  • I still don't think I'll do London TR, too much faff just to run round. If I can build from here then maybe Copenhagen as it's three weeks later.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
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