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Stu - there are plenty of folks run sub 3 off low mileage, but they're either (a) future sub 2:30 runners with a lot of natural ability, for whom 3 hours is a long way short of potential, (b) past 2:3X runners who are running below the pace they used to, or (c) people (triathletes mainly) backing up running miles with a lot of cycling or other x-training.
If you want to get quicker then for me it's intervals of some sort, but only after you've got an endurance base - as TR says, there's no point building speed if you can't last the distance. But on the plus side, your long runs don't need to get too much quicker - 4h runners tend to do their long runs closer to MP than 3h runners.
The main thing that will stop you reaching potential though is getting injured. If you can get your long runs in and get to the race avoiding injury then most of the rest, whatever you chose to do, is just icing and you won't be far off. Assuming you don't screw up the race on the day, but that's another discussion!
Back to 20 already LMH - impressive.
Positive progress TR - wish it all came back to me that easily
Very interesting reading the answers to Stu's questions.
I know I'm in the high mileage camp & also that cycling doesn't seem to help my running at all.
I've still not improved on my 3:02 from Brighton 2016. I bought P&D after Abo '16 (3:07) & tried the 24wk 70mpw plan but broke myself with about 2 months to go. At VLM '17 got to 22M on track, but slowing, then staggered the last 5K.
Since the start of November I've been running 70 mpw again but solely 8-9 min/miles in the week then a parkrun on Saturday & another race most Saturday afternoons/Sundays. My times over 5K & 10K are now back to at least where they were a year ago but I'm far less tired. Not gone much over 15M yet in one go but did do 6x 13+ mile runs + a parkrun the week before Xmas then managed a SB 10K on Boxing Day after a speedy parkrun Xmas day. Another month on & I went through 10K faster than BD during my 8M race today after running an all-time parkrun PB yesterday & only 3s slower than my 5K PB set in 2015 4 days before Brighton Marathon.
Jooligan - Sounds like your body has adapted well and your in a far stronger position this time around. Time to go longer than 15m?
CD - well done on keeping ahead in the family pecking order.
Jooligan- you will need to stop racing saturday and sunday every weekend, and put your eggs into a big race basket if you want to nail a marathon. You are burning too many matches too often imo.....I am getting back to it but it' taken a long time, thus time last year I was on a few 3 miles a week after several months of zero.
Btw congratulations on your latest marathon exploits. Your recent marathon achievements are inspirational for someone who's rapidly approaching yet another age category.
Knew that would be your take on it TR.
Stu - you've already had loads of great responses, but I would repeat TR's comment that I can't remember meeting a runner who has been running consistently 60mpw+, with no breaks for injury etc., and isn't in sub 3 shape (some people just mess up the race). I would also caveat that by saying they need to not be overweight (unlikely if doing that mileage).
The way to progress to higher mileage is to initially do it all nice and easy to minimise the risk of injury. Once you've built that base you can then start to add in some tempo, intervals etc. But by then you'd probably be in sub 3 shape anyway. And in terms of key runs, I would only list 2 of them, a long run (can be way slower than MP) and medium-long run with something a bit closer to MP (ideally a fair chunk at MP but that can come later).
TR - 68M for the week is pretty solid. You'll comfortably bag another 2:5x if you keep that up.
LMH - did I read correctly that you thought you'd test the injury with a 20M run?!
CD - nice run in the 10k, and sounds like a very impressive debut from junior.
Finally got some good mileage in last week with 61M. 30M during the week (mainly lunchtimes), then I did 18M on Saturday morning inc. a parkrun. I felt really good throughout - the slowest mile was 6:47 and averaged 6:33 I think.
Then on Sunday morning the Mrs suggested I go to the local 12M "training run" organised by a club down the road - I think I'd built up some brownie points on Saturday afternoon as she spent 5 hours at the hairdresser. I hadn't planned to do it (hence the long run on Saturday), but didn't want to decline the offer so went along and ran around with another local guy I know quite well, averaging about 6:30s (slower for the 4M along the muddy canal towpath, plus there are 2 chunky hills so we were running more like 6:20 pace on the flat road sections). Plus a mile jog back to the car.
I've brought my running kit to work today but if anything it will be a very easy 5M as certain joints are feeling pretty tight after a 31M weekend.
UDS -- I've morphed from a low-mileage guy into a higher-mileage guy, but the one thing I've always had in successful campaigns are at least a couple of full or over-distance long runs. Which won't scare you with the ultra background. So many people train for speed, only to conk out and haemorrage time in the last few miles, because they're not adapted to the whole thing.
Just recently I ran a surprisingly quick half, my best race ever in age-graded terms, with basically no speed work at all other than a few quick laps round the park in taper week. My average race pace was something I'd have struggled to do a single mile at in most of my training -- having fresh legs on race day makes a massive difference to me. Oddly I did a 28M steady training run for an ultra just the week before as I wasn't taking it too seriously...
TR -- cor, that 20 is a real comeback landmark. I'm sure that will soon be pea-shelling stuff.
Padams in significant training shocker! Can't wait to see the effects.
So, my race then, the Peddars Way Ultra on Saturday. Basically it was 48 miles in a straight line from near Thetford to near Hunstanton, like doing a spoke from hub to rim, if East Anglia is a wheel. Unfortunately there was a flooded boardwalk after a couple of miles ("you'll be fine so long as you look through the water to stay on it"), so we basically started the thing with excrutiatingly cold, wet feet. After that there was a fair mixture of road sections and mud/grass track. Quite a few fallen trees to be clambered round, too, after recent high winds. Mandatory kit requirements were like a fell race (full waterproofs, hat and gloves, emergency food, torch etc) so I was carrying a 2kg pack. I got through about 10 gels, restocking at half way, and taking on water at the 3 checkpoints to wash them down.
On the start line the race director recommended we re-route at a particular village, following the cycle route on the road (bit further but less muddy). I was miffed to get a last-minute instruction I couldn't hope to follow without local knowledge, and decided I'd have to stick with the route downloaded to my watch, as 50% of being successful in things like this seems to be summed up as "not getting lost". But once underway I realised I had the 1:25,000 mapping in ViewRanger on my phone, with my gpx route on that too, so I did have the means to gake the diversion -- which I did, in 3rd, but the guy behind me didn't. And I didn't see him later so I didn't know if I'd gained or lost by doing that. So at the midway checkpoint I yelled "am I 3rd or 4th?", which caused a bit of puzzlement and the reply "you're second!". Turns out one of the leaders dropped out early and oddly at the first checkpoint, I found later.
Weather-wise it did become windy, but it was behind us, so very welcome! Which meant it didn't feel very cold (maybe 3 degC at the start, 7degC by the end), and the rain in the last couple of hours wasn't too troubling either. I thought that about 8 min/M should be realistic, but was a bit reckless and did more like 7:45/M when it was easy going as I knew that was course record territory. In the end I definitely felt I was tiring badly at around 40M, but actually perked up again for the last 2-3M, and while it's a bit hard to tell about pace with the varied terrain and obstacles, I didn't fade too badly overall, though I certanly couldn't claim it was even-paced.
Scores on the doors: 2nd place (by 9 mins; the leader was 8 mins up at half way, so must have had a tough second half) of 110, about 6.5 hrs to cover ~48M. The race director said we first two both technically took the old course record as it was extended a couple of years back.
There was some logisical fun too. I decided against the coach from the finish to the start as I live closer to the start, and would have had to get up stupidly early. So instead I abandoned my car at the start on Sat, got home by bus/train/walk, and then had to retrieve the car yesterday by train & Brompton -- worked out fine in fact.
Nice one Charlie W, I wasn't expecting ultra race reports on this thread too. Great stuff and super result mate. Cracking pace. Loved doing ultras but haven't for the last 2 years. When I did them I found the time to train for them far easier than I do now. Or perhaps it was my motivation that was different. Back then I'd get out the door at 5am on a Saturday morning to do a 5hr run and be back for the day and family time. I'd struggle to do that now I think.
CW - fantastic run, well done. It is often hard to track positions in these races as people do seem to drop out randomly. I don't think I'd have enjoyed trying to get home again from the finish!
Stu - if you're already doing HMs in training in sub-1:30, a sub 3 shouldn't be a problem at all. When I'm marathon training I struggle to do more than around 5M at MP outside of a race. If you had a HM race now on a flat course you should be able to do sub-1:25 if you're doing sub 1:30 on your own.
5M at lunchtime didn't feel too bad, just a bit lethargic. Didn't measure it or anything, just decided to run for about 36 mins around the park and keep it very easy.
You make me miss ultras Charlie. Well done on the second place.
No ill effects from yesterday's run so I went out and did a few miles this morning. I think I'm back - shame I've lost so much time.
Big weekend from you Padams!
Really enjoyed the report CW; congrats on another great performance.
Had the Southern XC champs on Saturday and it certainly wasn't my finest day out. To get the excuses in, I still felt pretty wrecked from Thursdays tempo and then decided to run 4 miles inc. parkrun on Saturday morning. Had already decided to start very steady and build into it, treating it more like a long training session.
About 30 minutes before the start the weather turned from miserable to horrific, and the whole course was an absolute mudbath, with a couple of killer climbs. Steady start, but on the final descent on the first lap I tripped and went flying forwards, landing on my rib-cage. Completely knocked the wind out of me, and I was on the deck for a good 30 seconds trying to be a big boy and not cry. Eventually dragged myself up to continue, with the second lap being fairly uneventful.
However, onto the start of the 3rd (last) lap I realised I wasn't actually going to make the last 3 miles without going to the loo, so had to make an impromptu stop in the bushes. To cap it all off, I lost my hat on an overhanging branch on the final climb and had to run back and get it. What a rookie. I jogged it in from here, having lost all motivation (I was actually disappointed with how weak I was mentally). 305th out of 750 - standard wasn't too bad.
Had a much better day sunday, 3 hours on the turbo trainer keeping it nicely controlled, before a 20 mile, 6 hour walk in Surrey which had plenty of climbing - it was great fun.
Padams - those two runs back to back bode well. Very LMHesque.
LMH - just a few ?
Stu- I'm with padams, 13m at sub3 pace so far out? If so you need to aim higher and spend the next 8 weeks doing as many double digit runs as you can, so that you are strong enough to run sub3 pace all the way. Easy win from here given the right prep.
6m easy for me today.
Joe - A weekend of 2 parts, imagine a few choice words were used on the run on Saturday. Not a bad position considering.
LMH - Great to see you running 20m again.
Jooligan - Cheers, give us a hug!
Padams - Proper training! 5 hours at the hairdresser wow - you could have done 40m in that time.
Padams - how're the press-ups going for this month. Have changed focus this year after 67k last year. Same idea, but a new exercise each month, starting with 21 on first of the month, 22 on the second, and so up to 50/51. January was kettlebell squats. Haven't decided on Feb yet. Makes it manageable but sufficient discipline required to keep up the challenge.
OO - nice report; you're hitting some great recent form/consistency; giving me a lot of confidence that I've perhaps got some useful years left at a respectable level if I can replicate. Looking forward to seeing what you make of some proper mountain racing in the summer.
Think I'm over the plague. Got a 14, 15 & 20 in last week. Need to add some speed, but light at the end of the tunnel. Entered the big half on march 4th. Anything under 80 mins would be acceptable.
Dan - managed the 30 today in one hit, but I probably couldn't have done even one more, so will be moving onto shorter sets now! I knew you'd have another challenge this year - that one sounds mentally easier, but depends what exercises you choose I guess.
LMH - ah yes, that makes sense. I suppose straight into a 20 miler isn't quite as crazy then, although probably still not something I would do (or be able to do!). You're a bit more accustomed to long runs than me though.
Joe - I heard about the Southerns, sounds horrific! Pleased I couldn't make it. Don't worry about your performance, it's not exactly the type of event you're focusing on. Even Marders had an off day.
4.5M easy this morning - the first half with the dog and the second half into work. Hoping to get to track this evening again.
Padams - agreed, a challenge with lower totals is much more mentally achievable.
OO - what is next for you Barcelona?
My legs are still (unsurprisingly given recent efforts) a bit tired and heavy, but I ran further in todays 30mins of 30sec/30sec than I have for a while. They are certainly going faster than rhey did before stubbington 10k.
Almost forgot you had VLM on your radar Padams, good mileage last week.
Charlie.. as elsewhere congrats on the epic journey and 2nd place. Impressed that the start/finish logistics worked out too!
CD.. nice racing from you & junior with the right pecking order of course
Joe.. well battled anyway, XC is hard enough without incidents, accidents & lost property.
Dan.. that's been a long time with the lurgy, glad it's on it's way out.
LMH.. that must be a blessed relief, nice to see you getting double digit runs done again.
4.2m + 7.5m double today. Shorter run on the treadie waiting for a parcel delivery and out with the club tonight.
LMH -- sounds promising.
JB -- a lot of trials and tribulations in your XC! I did it at Stanmer Park once, and both I and my quads were surprised by the accumulated hills...
DanA -- will be curious to hear how the Big Half goes, as it sounds so VLM-like (which I love). It clashes with our Cambridge half this year though.
Just popping in as per usual - good to see my local pal and LBAC social secretary UDS has joined in! I was always berating him (in a friendly manner of course) for not getting sub3 in the marathon and fair enough he got the job done! Hope your little one perks up soon Padams..
JB - I would have thought that your story would be mirrored by a few of us on Saturday! The weather was ridiculous and the course muddied up very quickly. I also nearly had to stop for a toilet break on the last lap, but just managed to hold on until the finish. I started off very conservatively as I'm not tapering for xc anymore and did 5 x 1mle on the Thursday. Only really felt on it in the last lap, and came through for 132nd, which wasn't too bad. Ran with PP and Steve Way for a bit who seemed to be having a pleasant chat! Beer and a pastie on the way home on the train, so a good day out at least. CW - yes two bastard hills in each loop.
TR - fingers crossed for nice weather on Sunday at Chichester, I'm trying to get one of he top 3 V45 places to get in the 10k final in Brum in May..although you still don't get free entry to the Brum race if you do!
252m for January (with no zeros). It took me until mid April to run 252m last year when I was struggling to get back to it. February might be a bit compromised due to racing, but hopefully i can get some miles in after worthing for 6 or 7 weeks.
18m on Sunday and no ill effects from that this week. Had Monday off. Steady 5 yday and double digit run today. 13 with 5 at sub MP. I would have expected to still feel lethargic from Sunday so seem I'm building up that all important endurance and quick recovery. Thursday off and then tempo repeats Friday.
Do you usually have two rest days in a week Stu?
Not giving you a free entry if you qualify seems a bit mean Simon. I can't help feeling that these Masters things that UKA are doing are more about getting money in than promoting athletic excellence.
TR - 252M, I knew you'd been picking up the training but that's really impressive.
Have run every day this week, all easy except for track on Tuesday evening which was 5x1M with 500m jog recovery. I only did 4 of them as my calves were tightening up quite badly, but was hitting about 5:20s each time (including running in lanes 2/3 a lot of the time so probably a bit more than a mile). The recoveries were around 8m/m.
193M for me in January which is my highest since April last year. Also, it's only 1M less than in 2015 when I set my marathon PB, although I was also doing some cycling in 2015.
Watford HM on Sunday - tough course, so if I can manage a 74:xx at this stage I think I'll be happy. Marders is on the entry list, but there's decent prize money so not surprising that it attracts some good runners.