Sub 3



  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Chees for the comments, its been a tough 2 years to get back to sub3, and this year has had a few hurdles. Without the late easing off to prevent cramping id have been 2.54,  but thats not a lot quicker than Yeovil, although Yeovil was a cruise and yday was tough. Happy that i hung tough. As per after  yeovil i feel i can still go a bit quicker, so a sub 255 will motivate me over the winter, only got to gain a few minutes and I'll be closing in on a pb.

    Legs arnt too bad (thats a result of mileage not not trying imo), but are a bit sore, stomach, groin, back and hammys all ache.

    I have two overriding that i must take the physios advice and turn up healthy as well as fit, i had tight hammys and back before the off......and im not sure i got the ROI to justify my week off the beer.
  • If I did do it TR it wouldn't be as an attempt at a time but as a way of further playing with the nutrition side. I don't particularly like racing so have no plans to enter shorter, more painful ones.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • LMH -- maybe getting cold is what did for you yesterday?

    For those who haven't already seen them on FB, here are my updated marathon progression graphs. Now I've highlighted my 2018 and 2019 summer ultras, too -- admittedly that's selective, because I haven't shown the Bob Graham Round in 2013 or Meridian Ultra 100K in 2017. Overall the curve is ridiculously smooth -- my variation between marathons has been tiny -- but scarily curving the wrong way fast now:

  • saintjasonsaintjason ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019

    ES - Superb run yesterday once again. You must still be buzzing from that performance. Your training on Strava was exemplary and very inspirational. Enjoy the posh toilets.

    LMH - others have said it all already but I was sad to read you had a bad day in your opinion. However, I don’t think it was as bad as you think considering what you have had to deal with this year. It showed great strength to toe the line feeling like you did pre-race. The stomach concerns will have played on your mind a lot too. I swear by a big pizza margaretta and coca-cola as pre-race meal :) Plenty of cals in that. Glad your legs are feeling good but take that break - if you can resist. I won’t be deserting you any time soon and will happily pace you anytime. I’m a really good judge of pace - don’t let yesterday put you off :)

    TR - enjoyed your report and sounds like you got it spot on especially closing the race so well whilst nursing the hammys. Top stuff again and super happy for you. Just rewards for the hard work to get back. Plenty of positives to take from yesterday and the desire to improve is a great motivator as you say for those dark january runs. Hope you redressed the beer abstinence?

    Tmap - sorry to read you struggled and that your legs weren’t happy from so early on. However, that’s some effort to continue and finish when feeling so bad especially nursing your legs home with 10 still to do. Fair play. You and me both on the imposter syndrome. Some seriously fast people here.

    Wardi - cracking run and improvement on recent performances. Well toughed out in the last few miles too and yes all part of the fun having to dig in like that. Sorry didn’t catch up too. I was away and on the bus back to the station as I was shivering as soon as I had stopped running.

    Jooligan - cheers mate. You and others are right of course. A PB is a PB after all.

    OO - thanks appreciate the comments. Probably was a touch quick but as my report (to follow) hopefully shows I don’t think it was massively wide of the mark. In hindsight I would have run a minute slower to half way and maybe held on better for a slightly better time. The pacing is what got me so down straight after the race. I am usually super cautious and diligent. It felt like I had ballsed it up a little. Hope the lurgy buggers off sharpish.

    RJR - very disciplined running and hopefully that gives you a nice endurance stimulus to take forwards to your goal race.

    Padams - cheers for comment - agreed - it's an improvement and can build again from here. Nice parkruning around the rugby.

    Selbs - Well gritted out in your run especially as it got tough for you in those last few miles too. Impressed you were doing maths towards the end too. Whilst disappointed you did well to creep under your C target I reckon. I’m sure you will get some solid advice on what you could do to try something different that might help. Really not impressed you are walking up and down stairs with no problem! :) Cheers for comment - Not my usual style tbh but sometimes you have to go for it - which again is very unlike me. Normal service will resume.

    Joe - cheers for comment and you are correct. Best wishes for Frankfurt for you both.
    Al_P - Sounds like you managed that fairly well and finished strongly. As you say - backing off paid dividends later on. I have much to learn. Recover well. Glad to read someone else's legs are borked today!

    TickTock - cheers for the comment and you are and others are right - on reflection very happy.  Sounded like you managed your race well at Abo and well done on getting the performance you went there for. Agree with the one or two little annoyances about the race itself.

    CW - likewise - it was great to say hello on the  out and back twice! You settled into a nice rhythm early on and soon disappeared from my vantage point. Indeed you were looking very strong on the A166 - both times we passed one another. Congrats on exceeding your expectations and rest well on your sabbatical - well deserved I’d say. Nice graphs too and although that trend is curving the other way - you are still way ahead of the curve :)

    Shawk - yay super well done on getting the job done. I’d say you have done a great job and in no way should you feel you could have gone quicker. Save that for the next one now you know what the pain of those last 6 miles feels like. Good job.

  • saintjasonsaintjason ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    Ok so this is a little self indulgent as this report is copy and pasted from my blog - please feel free to skip as you all already know the result. 

    TL;DR - Initially slightly disappointed and thinking I had messed up, now happy as reviewed the race and I gritted it out. Onwards and upwards indeed. 

    Yorkshire Marathon 2019
    I had changed to kilometres only a few weeks previously in training which meant some mental maths had been taking place in the build-up whilst I adjusted to the new unit and paces. The first couple of km ticked by quickly but since I was running to HR (based on the last 3 recent marathons) I knew that avg 158-162 was my range to keep things within. 

    The first 5km sailed by easily enough with splits ranging from 3:56-4:02 to average 19:57 and 158 HR. I felt I had started well and got into a decent rhythm. The next few km also passed uneventfully as I settled and found myself trying to figure out who was running what pace. Around this point I was joined by a Kendle AC  runner who stuck around and a group of sorts began to form although quickly disintegrated. The next 5km continued smoothly with pace ranging 3:59-4:02 to average 19:59 and 159 HR through to 10km.

    The hill at 8.5 miles cost me 10 beats as my HR rose to 170 momentarily but settled quickly as we continued along the rural roads. I didn’t lose anytime on this hill as I caught it all back on the descent. I didn't notice the wind at all in the first half of the race but I bizarrely do recall a small congregation led by the vicar blessing us as we ran past a small church :)

    10-15km in 20:04 160 HR with pace ranging 3:59-4:01 and still running strong. The field had spread out now and I remember commenting that we needed to get into a group for the next 15km to help us a little. It never happened as we all ‘maintained’ and when we did catch someone we moved passed fairly quickly as they were slowing or presumably managing pace. Ahem. 

    15km-20km confirmed I was still going along nicely as that passed in 19:59 with 159 HR with pace ranging 3:59-4:01. I reached the halfway point in 85:15, which I thought was a touch fast but not by much. I was still confident the course would not get any tougher than the hill at 8.5 miles.

    I think the course got a touch twisty between 20km-25km as we reached the out and back section along the A166 and the first turnaround point where crowd support was excellent. I’ve decided I don’t like turn around points as they mess with my rhythm. This 5km was completed in 20:16 and 160 HR as we worked hard into a now very obvious cross wind which at times became a headwind. At 25km my Kendle AC wingman began to fall off, at first to take on a gel, but then a 0.5 km later for good. Psychologically this may have messed me up a little as the grind along that road seemed to take forever and became that little bit more tougher now solo as my legs began to ache and the thought of what was still ahead of me first entered my thoughts. 

    25km-30km included saying hello to CW for the second time and the second turn around which again had some great support. This split was a bad patch as the grind on that road took its toll and was completed in 20:19 and 160 HR. However, the signs that I had got through the bad patch were evident despite a couple of splits of 4:10 and 4:08. I was reassured since the other splits were 4:03, 4:00 and 3:58.

    30km-35km includes the left turn off the A166 at 32km which was a much needed mental boost to now be heading back to the University and the finish line. My right quad was becoming sore at this point and I began to feel my legs hurting and becoming even heavier. This split came in at 20:46 but HR had dropped to 158 as I now began to struggle to maintain early pace.

    35-40km I remember trying to not look at my watch anymore which lasted about 2km. My form deteriorated a little as I began catching the walking/runners from the end of the10 mile race. As I slowed I focused on passing anyone in sight. My right quad twitched a few times but I controlled it and it didn’t spasm. One foot in front of the other but the desire to stop was huge now. I completed this split in 21:50 but HR was dropping all the time and was 156 HR now as I struggled to maintain the effort and the pace.

    The final 2 km were 4:35, 4:41 as I desperately wanted that last hill to appear back up to the finish. It duly did and I managed to get up and over it for the very welcome downhill section to the finish line in 2:54:45 for a 37 second PB. No wild celebration or fist pump as that was a tough last 10km.

    Whilst initially disappointed I took great encouragement from feedback received and after reviewing the splits it wasn’t too bad actually despite the big positive split. It was more of a gradual decline rather than a big blow up. I think fueling was good with a gel every 8km. I think the legs began to lose strength first which was exacerbated later on by running out of stamina at that early pace. What I am most proud of is the mental strength I showed in toughing out that last 10km. I never quit and although it got tough I have to be very, very happy with an improvement, no matter how small.
  • WardiWardi ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    Charlie.. one the wise old athletes in my club told me many years ago that runners have approx. 10 years of running at somewhere near their peak before times start to decline.  This has proved true for most of the runners I know.  Congrats on finishing ahead of expectations BTW, very pleased for you.
    LMH.. one other thought ( I do wonder this for myself) is how many times is it wise to go to the marathon 'well' as one ages?  I'm not sure if 3 marathons a year is entirely wise for a gent of my years.  However like you I enjoy running and I am fairly convinced that fairly regular marathons prepare you for the next one. 
    Selbs.. you deserved better than that but I do admire the grit shown at the end to rescue the sub 2:45.  The marathon is more difficult to get right than shorter stuff.  However I can't think of anything you did wrong from your description so I can understand why you are a bit disappointed.
    Al P..  that's a great run on a slightly compromised build up, nice one.  I hope you didn't have to do all the driving back to the south coast!
    TMap.. you did well to battle through that with tired legs, any plans for another?
    Shawk.. Well done indeed on your first sub 3.  I wouldn't bother wondering what might have been, just bank it for now and look for improvements in the next one.
    JoeB.. I enjoyed Frankfurt when I ran it, you will love the mad indoor finish!  Best of luck to Katie.

    One memory from yesterday, I was running on empty in the last couple of miles and was dreading the hill just before the finish.  I was determined to run all the way up it as a couple of local runners I know were spectating near the top and pride was at stake.  I was so tired I almost careered into a crowd barrier about half way up.  Once I got over the top however I spotted an A/G rival and managed to muster enough pace to pass him and gain another A/G place.  No idea where that last burst came from!  FTR my legs are not working very well today.  :/

  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    SJ - great write up. Im plessed you are happier today, marathons are a tough day and even the odd % off colour makes a difference. Well done for hanging tough. You have had a great 18 months, with more progress to make. Like me you can use the thought that you can squeeze a bit more out as a motivator over the winter.........i had a couple of beers last night, but will ease into it as the week goes on. Like you im happy that i hung tough. I thought of you a fee times yday, as cruised past me around 23m last yr after one of the trail sections, i made sure i kept trying hard yday.........marathons are such a mental game and you have so long to talk yourself into and out of it, early on yday i was teying to remember where the route got as close to the finish as possible whuch is around 15m so i could drop out there and walk back if my legs didnt improve.
  • I have checked my online splits and the 30k time seems to be incorrect. Has anyone else checked and seen a noticeable difference?
  • In contrast to most it seems my legs are trashed. Even my arms hurt. 

    This suggests I didn't quite run enough long runs - 9 I think including one 40km but crucially I don't think I did as many fast finishes this time compared to Mcr in April. I think that played a big part in my fade yesterday and the legs feeling so bad today. 

    I also switched my tempo day to a Friday where as at the beginning of the year I was doing them on a Saturday, the day before my long run. I really did feel that was a good stimulus starting my long runs on tempo tired legs. That will be going back in the plan. 

    At least two weeks off for me now. Have gone back to back 4 times over past two years so a little break before getting back into things. 
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    Wardi - good to see you racing the AG rivals.

    SJ - i have achy sides and hips. Not sure re more long runs, i think long tempos is what I'll aim to include next time, but that is pretty much the p and d long runs inc long blocks of mp anyway. I did 5 23 or 24m long runs this time, but the constant flat course yday at mp hammers my legs. Maybe ill even go full p and d although id need to move the days round............anyway, beer time. Ghost Ship today.
  • JoolskaJoolska ✭✭✭
    SJ: I'm a big fan of intervals/tempo work on Saturday and then long run on Sunday.  With my current fitness it needs careful management, but I think it really helps to be doing your long run on tired legs.

    Rest day for me.
  • OO - the factors behind my performance? I think three things. Firstly, I think in my VLM training for this year I was guilty of leaving too much on the road in training - burning too many matches pre-race as TR would say. On race day I didn't feel good and 2:51 was the result. I was determined not to overtrain for Abingdon, and paid a lot more heed to effort levels and HR in training, instead of looking at speed/splits. Secondly, the conditions - as near as perfect as you'll get. Thirdly the Nike Vaporfly shoes. I don't think they necessarily made me hugely faster, and certainly not by 7 minutes, but they saved my legs and enabled me to sustain the pace without cramping etc. Oh, and I am going to add one more thing - I think I am just better at Autumn marathons!

    Padams - thank you, and yes, as per above, I also don't think a pair of shoes can shave 7 minutes off a PB!

    Selbs - thank you also. Sorry to hear you're disappointed. Could it have been a case of working too hard in training? Sometimes you just feel crap on the day though and there's no obvious reason for it.

    Al_P - thanks, looking forward to VLM champs. Great run in York off only a few weeks training.

    JoeB - thank you! I was pleased with the pacing.

    TkTk - it'll be at least a week before I put on trainers again, but yes, we should meet up in Viccy Park soon!

    CW - thank you, and well run at York. Don't be so sure you've only got a couple of champs starts left in you. A "reboot" maybe all that is needed. Love those graphs!

    Shawk - congrats on the sub-3! That's a nice negative split as well.

    SJ - thank you! Of those 9 long runs, how many were 20 miles (sorry, 32km) or over?
  • saintjasonsaintjason ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    Andy - Just checked and yes the official results seem 1 minute over. My watch split for 30k was 2:00:34 but the official result says 2:01:33. 

    Which makes sense as I felt it got really tough at just after 30k not before as the official website would suggest based on the 30k split. 

    Jools - Yes definitely going back in the plan especially as I hate doing tempo in the dark so Saturday mornings means day light for them over winter. 

    ES - all 9 were 20+ I think 3 x 21, 1 x 22 and the big 25 4 weeks out incl last 10km at tempo. Just not enough of those fast finishes I reckon. First few were on hilly courses too. Nice insight there into your recent training. Perfectly executed. 

    Wardi - great to get that scalp - love it! 

    TR - Good mental strength not to stop. I wish I was as lucid during the pain :) I like to think I handle it well but in reality I probably could do a better job there too. Enjoy those well earned beers. I trundled down to the local shop for some Brew Dogs last night - finished them off tonight - alright I admit it - I drove down there (literally 400m at the bottom of the road :) )
  • Abingdon Race Report

    We'd stayed in a hotel nearby overnight, thus avoiding a pre-dawn start, and helping take the stress out of getting to the start, if you ignore road closures and full car parks... I had to walk about a mile to the start which helped loosen the legs a bit but I was pretty cold by the time I got there. Fortunately the building was nice and warm and I even managed to sit down for a bit. I saw Selbs, TkTk and DanA for a chat as well. I left the building to head to the start with Dan's words ringing in my ears - "perfect conditions today, don't let them go to waste"! It's funny having to walk almost a whole lap of the athletics track to line up at the start, just a quirk of Abingdon I suppose. Since I hadn't realised that was the case, it was only about a minute to go when I got myself settled into the throng about 8 rows from the front. I wasn't too worried about being that far back, in the end I just overtook people using the outer lanes of the track! It all widens out once you turn out of the stadium anyway and I soon settled into a position with a few people doing a similar pace. The first 3 miles are largely downhill so I was expecting them to be a bit quick, though 6:05, 5:57, 6:00 were a bit of a surprise! HR settled at 152 by mile 3, and miles 4-6 were 6:05, 6:06, 6:01 at that same HR. This was the first evidence of the impact of the Vaporfly's. I'm normally at around 155bpm for the same effort level. I tried not to think about the pace at this point! I got a cheer from the family just before turning onto the first lap of the roughly 8M loop that's the bulk of the Abo course. The route gently climbs from mile 7, and my pace slowed to something more in line with expectations - 6:13, 6:16, 6:10 for the next 3. By this point I was running alone, but could see two runners not too far ahead, and hear one not too far behind. I was finding the sections where you have to run on the pavement a bit tiresome, so tried to run in the road wherever possible (roads are not closed on most of the course). Fortunately local drivers were very understanding. I was pacing based on 6:15s, so checking based on 25 mins every 4 miles. 6:11, 6:06, 6:09 for the next 3 miles, and HR dropped to 151. I urged myself not to start drifting, even though I had over a minute in the bank. I passed halfway in 80:31, which made me wonder just what was possible! At this point I was sure that aerobically I'd have no problems, and it would just be whether the legs would stay the distance. As I came round to start the 2nd lap, the family weren't there, so I guessed I'd be seeing them cheering me at the finish. The next couple of miles were 6:14 and 6:13, but as I came to the uphill lap for the 2nd time, I did slow to 6:21, but decided not to push hard because I had time in the bank. The miles up to mile 20 were 6:11, 6:10, 6:15, 6:17. At some point someone shouted that I was 10th. I started to believe sub 2:45 was on, but still wasn't taking it for granted. It would only take a bit of cramp to knacker the whole thing! I found miles 21-23 hard (who doesn't?!?) not only because of fatigue but because there is an off-road section and slower runners to lap, plus a ridiculous barrier/gate thing that you have to negotiate. I also got a weird stomach cramp which forced me to take shallow breaths and I started to worry this would scupper my race. If I tried to take slower, deeper breaths, it seemed to make my stomach worse. 6:22, 6:19, 6:21 was evidence I was slowing but as we turned back towards town I was still ahead of 6:15 target and the stitch had largely gone. I didn't take my last gel though, just in case. Get to mile 24 I thought, then start to believe! I went through 24 at 2:28:5x - it was on! Coming back into town was great because of the cheering crowds, though not so great with tight turns and narrow paths. As you come out of town it's a climb all the way to the finish. Mile 25 was a struggle - 6:33 and two runners passed me. You have to run on the pavement at this point, and it is weird just passing people out walking their dogs or going shopping. It seemed never ending, but finally we turned onto the road to the finish, and it flattened out. Mile 26 was 6:20 so near enough back on pace and as we turned into the stadium, I saw the family and gave a massive fist pump! I gained a place back as we turned onto the track, and could probably have gained another but for a touch of cramp in the final 200m. I couldn't have cared less though, and crossed the line for 2:43:07 and 11th place. I had not wasted the opportunity gifted to me!
  • Great report ES - you made it happen.

    Charlie - I definitely seem to run better when it's warm.

    sj - I'm glad that on reflection you are happy with your time and proud of your performance. I fear you'll be going a bit too fast even for my hopes (never mind expectations) at London. Had to laugh at you driving 400m for your beers. My stomach issues were a major limiting factor at London this year and not sorted by Yeovil hence my caution yesterday and the thought of trying another just to experiment with taking on a few more calories without upsetting it as I think that would have helped. The Nottingham one has portaloos every mile round the course..............

    You could well be right that three times a year is one too many Wardi - I had no intention of running Yeovil this year but when mark said he wanted to it seemed silly not to and of course that turned out to be my best result of the year. Unfortunately for me there seems to be a newcomer in the FV50 category who is faster than me so I'm sliding down the UK rankings with my decline:-( I'm glad I wasn't the only one who struggled with the hill at the end - I was determined to run every step but thought I'd probably be faster walking it!

    I always try to smile as I run and most of the myriad of race photos make me look as though I'm enjoying myself (though with the odd obvious grimace) both feet off the floor in lots though - it certainly doesn't look as bad as it felt. Off to 'Pilates Stretch today - should give the regulars a laugh.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • TmapTmap ✭✭✭
    Spose I need to plan another one now. Not too keen on late spring because I have the Green Belt Relay to organise; early spring tends to clash with ski trips. Ah, first world problems...

    I think the answer is the Val D'Arly Trail at the end of March, although those alpine ones are very tough on the knees on the downhills and it's hard to train for that if you don't live there all the time. Hmmm...

    Or maybe Barcelona - that wasn't quite my PB but I think it was the best one I ever did as an all round great race. Dr Tmap has never been there too so she'd like that.
  • selbsselbs ✭✭✭

    great reports Al_P (and fantastic time, and well managed race!), TickTock, CW (not bad, i think you can get tback sub 245 with a change up of training no problem so plenty more years in the posh loos), and ES - performance of the weekend for me.  Shawk, thats a comfortable sub 3 well executed with plenty more to come i think.

    ES - yes that pesky bolard around 13 / 22 miles...near where  had my "pit stop" when i first went sub 245 in 2010.  i was sore/tired, struggling and overtaking some of the first lap runners (although felt like i was running same pace!) and managed to smash into it with my right arm!  That's the sorest part of my body still today, bit of blood/scab and large bruise on it!  Really didnt need that at that point!

    Padams - yeah it is still hard to describe.  It wasn't cramp though, more sore muscles that had been sore al week/bit sore for the last 3 weeks i guess, only thing i can think of was the fast 5km race i did worked muscles i don't normally use and they never got a chance to recover?  Dunno really.  Maybe the body just knew if i went faster i woudl cramp?  Really hard to work out that is the frustrating thing.

    CW - i do chuck in some faster ones in my final week for sure.  3 weeks taper were 64 miles (bit less than planned as work trip away) mostly easy, but a fastish 20 miler (with 4 miles at MP) and a mid week 14 milers with 8 miles tempo.  then 44 miles, with two 12ish milers that each had 6-8 miles tempo.  then final 7 days pre marathon was rest day, 6 miles (with 2 at sub 6m/m) 4.3 miles easy, 5.8 miles with 2 miles at 6:03s, and 3.7 miles with 1 at 5:54.  then rest Fri and Sat.  Pretty standard compared to all my previous "good" marathons.

    was tempted by Valencia (but full) as a "family holiday" and having a look at Nottingham, but not sure i can sell that one as a holiday, so not sure i want to discrupt the family just for my arbitrary time goal.  Might need to wait till next year.  Hopefully can find a decent close half to have a go at though to keep some focus, as i normally eat/drink to much for next 2-3 months!

  • Selbs - What about Malaga marathon on 15th December; fast and flat.  Great city to visit too for 'holiday' and the Malaga Christmas Lights are something special.  Went last year, going again this. 
  • WardiWardi ✭✭✭
    Tmap.. Barca was never a hilly marathon (done it 4 times) but they did tweak it in a few places last year to take a few rises out.  e.g. You turn south of the Nou Camp now and the first out & back section is longer than before to make up the distance.
    Selbs.. certainly worth doing Valencia one year, great event and the flattest marathon I've ever done.
    ES.. nice report, sounds like a very well executed race.
  • Nottingham isn't bad for a weekend away selbs.

    I am mostly still eating for England.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • Not sure which barrier/gate you're talking about but some of them on the course weren't really getting the job done. There was one where a guy had speakers out and was playing music (Scatman when I went past the second time) but an idiot was driving a scooter down the path there the wrong way. He almost hit the lady in front of me and that's not an exaggeration. But that's just another one of the variables you get on an open roads course. Other than that I would say the drivers and pedestrians etc were really courteous which is nice to see.

    Nice thing about Nottingham is that it's a Saturday so get it's out the way and hopefully a full Sunday with the feet up, although my partner tells me we're putting up the Christmas tree Sunday! But definitely not a holiday. I'm really interested to see how it goes. Actually like the idea of doing laps assuming there's really solid support around the finish area each time and that you don't need to carry anything on you. For people who like to play the numbers game and check out their splits (and there seems to be quite a few here) it's pretty perfect for that.

    Muscles feeling fairly fresh after Sunday but my joints less so. I've done a bit of 2hr+ driving lately and it feels pretty painful come the end of it. Any prolonged periods sat down seems to have my legs pretty stiff so something to keep an eye on. One thing I forgot about Sunday was that in a hurry to get out on Saturday (was at a wedding in the evening) I grabbed the wrong shoes. Ones I had definitely worn out in early September but for whatever reason hadn't thrown away. Suspect a bit less support didn't do my joints any favours over 26 miles. With walk to/from the start I actually clocked 53km on Sunday. That's ultra territory!

    As my office is in Abingdon (although I rarely come in) I'll be out reliving some of the course tomorrow morning so that will be an interesting test of the legs. I was pretty happy with myself yesterday that I was running up the stairs at home.
  • shawkshawk ✭✭✭
    Thanks for all the comments, much appreciated. I think that next time the mental aspect of the 3-hr barrier wont be such a factor and I'll just be able to run to feel a bit more - if that results in a blow up then so be it. No doubt I'd benefit from a longer training block too.

    CharlieW - Obviously I don't know how you train but I wouldn't underestimate the differences between your ultras and the road marathons, and given where your times are at (v fast!) it probably won't take too much change in your training to explain the drop-offs you've had in your recent times. I've wanted to run a road marathon for quite a few years now but just never felt like I'd be able to train or race properly because of some other race which I was more focussed on. Perhaps either the 100k races took more out of you than you thought - especially if you really raced them, or you subconsciously swapped e.g. a shorter/faster long run for a longer/slower one and over time that's had an impact?
  • selbsselbs ✭✭✭

    bgger OO that wuold have been quite good, but we have friends from NZ over that weekend so can't do.  it's actually looking difficult for me to find anything that works.  Still thinking about Nottingham LMH.  As for a half, has anyone done the Hertfordshire Half (24 Nov) in Stevenage.  Only been on 3 years i think, looks a tad hilly.  Also pondering Barcelona if it settles down over there, for next year.

  • PadamsPadams ✭✭✭
    shawk - sounds like you were working pretty hard towards the end so not sure you could have gone much quicker? Let's say you were a bit conservative - if you'd gone out in 1:28, I suspect you'd have come back in 1:29-1:30, so at most a couple of minutes quicker overall and maybe a lot less (or perhaps worse!). So I wouldn't worry about it.

    CW - love the graphs! Suggests to me that you need a bit of a break and then build a new base for the next attempt.

    SJ - thanks for the report, enjoyed that. Definitely not a blow-up and sounds like you got the most out of your body that you could on the day.

    ES - nice report, sounds like one of those days when it all comes together and you surprise yourself at how easy it feels!

    6M yesterday lunchtime, nothing much to report!
  • selbs -- OK, sounds like you were keeping your legs nicely tuned in the taper then.

    shawk -- my leg muscles just felt really, really trashed after those ultras, as if they were rebuilding themselves from scratch (but never getting back to quite where they were). Otherwise my training regime has been the same as in previous successful campaigns (or tried to be).

    Padams -- indeed, a break for me, and then maybe thinking about muscle strength... though maybe that's just it now. We'll see! PS I think you did a good parkrun or something at the w/e which I lost in the marathon reports, well done if so!

  • shawkshawk ✭✭✭
    CharlieW said:
    my leg muscles just felt really, really trashed after those ultras, as if they were rebuilding themselves from scratch (but never getting back to quite where they were).
    I'd put it down to that and forget about it then, you don't want to start convincing yourself that your best days are behind you when that graph clearly shows consistent improvement over a long timescale. I don't know how much long stuff you've done - but my first few races absolutely ruined me to the extent I couldn't really leave the house for 2-3 days, and in the 24hrs post race sleep was basically impossible because of the constant leg pain.

    Even though the running comes back quickly enough it can take a long time to properly recover and you see lots of examples of new talent coming through, appearing to dominate for a year or two then never being themselves again most likely because they never let themselves recover properly between races.
  • Do you do any strength training Charlie? When I turned 50 I made myself start going to the gym, if only once a week, to do a short program designed to counteract age related muscle loss which running alone won't do.

    I think that once you've done something it's definitely easier to do the next time shawk. Are you going to focus on another road marathon?

    Pilates stretch at the gym today ended up being yoga stretch as the Pilates teacher has left. Let's just say that whilst my hips and back did feel better for it it is 45 minutes of my life I'm not going to get back and definitely won't be making time for going forward especially as it would mean missing or at best doing a shorter run than I could otherwise fit in. I may have to resume running tomorrow as I've just about had enough of not:-)

    Given that I seem to do better when it's warmer I was wondering about a September rather October marathon next autumn - any ideas for flat fast ones that aren't in Spain?
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • Easier from that there London selbs. Not sure I'd sell it to Mark as it's a bit pricey too and I'd have to make my mind up in the next week.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • Selbs - I was thinking of entering Berlin next year as it happens! On the Hertfordshire Half, that's local to me but I've never done it. I would think it would be fairly undulating, that's typical for round here. I seem to recall mentioning the MK Winter Half to you in the pub on Sunday - that's Sun 8th Dec.

    Tuesday DOMS update - nowhere near as bad as usual. Another benefit of the magic shoes I suppose. I should probably say at this point, that in previous marathons I've always worn light or light-ish racing shoes. Nothing with any special foam such as Adidas Boosts or anything like that. So I probably had a lot to gain from switching to the Nike shoes.

    Speaking of which: interesting article on Vaporfly in the Guardian today. Talks about the 4% to 5% increase in running economy translating to about 60-90s off a marathon time. Not clear where he gets that number from but it was something I was wondering myself, as improving running economy by X% doesn't necessarily mean increase in speed of the same X%. So if 60-90s is right then I'd have still been under 2:45 in normal shoes  B)
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