Sub 3

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Comments

  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    Es - as per my other post big up the sheep for seizing the moment. I remember spesking to Stevie Wh after last yr and he was sinilarly buzzing. The shoes as a first race was possibly a masterstroke, as you obviously felt great, was running quick and the self confidence snow balled. Correct on the reduced leg damage too, they inptoveve economy.

    SJ - i turned down a lift from TT, so i had to walk to the pub, walked to the beer shop later too, it defo helps to get moving.

    LMH - would you do pilates once a week instead of a short run if it guaranteed quicker marathons ? I reckon its worth a go.......will i go yo regular physio and run long tempos in order to go quicker?........will charlie switch his training up to go quicker ?..........i think we could all go quicker if we really want to and are prepared to do these things.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    Looked at some of the race photos today, theres one where i have 1 gel left and still have my luco, so thats before i pushed on with 6 to go. 1 of the 8 or 9 i looked up that were around me finished ahead of me by abourt 30 secs (about the time i lost in last mile fending off cramp), the rest were all behind me from 2.55 to 3.01, so that reassures my trying hard late on.

    If i had had a stellar day i reckoned 2.53 at best, and i wasnt too far away, esp after a slow start, possibly due to it being colder. Anyway, all in all im pretty happy with that day, if i can find 2 minute by Spring and then 2 more by Abo 2020 then ill be on for a pb which would be remarkable.......the shoes would probably give me some of that too.
  • Of course I would if it guaranteed it TR - I make myself go to the gym to do my strength program at least once a week because it helps prevent age related muscle loss - but I don't know anyone who would tell me that or any evidence to support it. Today's class seems to have annoyed my left knee too so that's another good reason not to go back.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • Crikey - So  much to comment on;

     LMH - its easy to forget the level you are running at even when you have an off day.  A short reset and strategy review and you'll be good to go for London. How do you fancy a programme with Fewer miles and more tempo maybe? I have  found that I only need a 12 week intense programe to get to race fit so 3 a year could fir if you took the in between time as down time. Berlin/Amsterdam.

    TR - Well earned and deserved. Your targets for spring and Abo are big orange shoe ins! Ive got a digital excel P&D spreadsheet knocking around if you want it - it makes it really easy to manipulate

    ES - Nice run and report. Ive found my recovery and doms has reduced the more ive done to the point that whilst im massively fatigued for a couple of days Im generally ok functionally

    Shawks - I like your style particularly the slow first two - shows youre confident of youre pacing and race strategy -. A 3 min neg split is quite a bit so maybe a little bit of easy gain on the next outing but it means 2.55 is defo on next up.

    Selbs - Still a great run and not far from the 2,3x at 20 so plenty to take from that run.  I had an issue with my HR when i first ran sub 3 - at 8  miles I was maxing out so I switched it off and have never used it in a race since. I take it its an external HRM chest strap you use

    CW - Im getting data envy! Seems like a great run.  Change the graph to show achieved against anticipated and I think it will be right up there!

    Tick Tock - Really well paced nice run by the sounds.

    Quality Al_P

    Wardi - Cant argue with faster than last time.Nice to beat the younger ones.

    SJ - Quality PB there - Hows the quad now?

    ES - Sounds like you had the perfect day out. Nice one. 

    RJR - Sensible running - 

    TMap - Finishing is not to be sniffed at given you were off from the start. Great result
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    LMH - that annoying it might be doing it some goodvl though. Id wager that a pliates session or even a rest day would be better for you than an easy run......the exanples above were just examples, just saying that theres progress to be made from doing different things.......pilates saved crab from a back op, i think itd be better than a gym session.
  • LMH - I am doing pilates once a week - must admit Im not sure about it but going to stick at it. Its the only thing that all the different people treating me can agree on
  • Pilates might be good and I may still try a class but there is good evidence to support the importance and benefit of strength training after 50 TR, it's not just that someone said that it helped them. This is a life thing as much if not more than a running thing. Why would a rest day be better for me than an easy run?

    Mennania - I would quite like to try a slightly less miles with a bit of speed approach but every time I have tried to do speed work whether that be tempo runs or on the track with a club I have knackered my hamstrings. Add to that the huge improvements I made by increasing mileage and I'm reluctant to change what has been a winning formula for the last four years, and which I generally enjoy, for an untried potentially disheartening (I really can't hit the paces I 'should' be able to in training) misery making schedule. It would be so nice if someone could tell me do x, y and z and this will happen but as we all know what works for one won't for another.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    LMH - i understand re muscle/strength loss with age, pilates can provide that stimulus. But you could do both.  Depends on the gym work being done too.
  • WardiWardi ✭✭✭
    Quite right LMH, some folks do marathons well on 50-60 mpw, others 75-100.  We all have to find what works for us and what we can cope with both body wise and time wise.  BTW the Medoc Marathon is in September, ideal if you fancy a glass of red and some fine bread & pate on the way round  :)
    I bimbled 5k on the treadie today, slightly uncomfortable but my legs do feel better for it - I can almost walk normally now.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    Well you could get a coach LMH and give that a go for a year ? Worth considering given your ranking in AG? They would tailor the training esp to you too.

    Wardi - you're keen, im giving myself a bit longer. I want to do Gosport 1/2 in  weeks so hope that a few more days off now will help.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    Menn - ill mull over P and D or not, as id need to fit it into my commutes but as long as i did all the key components id be ok.

    Hows the running going (or not)?
  • I understand the dilemma LMH - I mentioned the mileage in your instance as a change is as good as a rest. I appreciate its each to their own - it would be good if someone could prove that the benefit and investment of higher mileage outweighs the benefits of more recovery and shorter quicker sessions or vice versa  +1 for the coach 

    Track work breaks me too - I still do tempo work on road - I dont do much at VO2 at all, maybe 3 sessions a programme (12 weeks) - its mainly LT work so its not so bad. 

    TR - I got upto over 20 miles last week and did 6 back to back on Sunday and Monday - did half a mile today and it was back to playing up. Ive seen the chiro tonite who has discharged me as I am structurally sound, he thinks its a functional issue, got someone measuring my legs this Thursday as a physio thinks ive a leg length discrepancy (?). The consultant has recommended and is on standby for an epidural, which Is booked for a week Thursday but I am desperate to avoid it, however if there is any regression I dont have a choice I guess as Im stuck in a bit of a loop at the moment. Good news my S&C is coming along nice and I can now touch my toes for the first time in decades.

    If you want the schedule to review just PM youre details and Ill ping it over for you to look at it.


  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    Good progress of sorts then. Shame about today. The exercises and S and S must kick in soon,  esp if you have note functional range. The leg length theory seems a bit bizarre, given what youve been able to do previously. Hopefully youll avoid the epidural. As said before pilates helped crab avoid an op........i have a copy of P and D, i bought it after last yrs 3.01 at Abo. I followed a few principles before Brighton. ......SBD did 2.51 at Abo off P and D as M55, Sheep did 2.43......a fella doing a 1.25 mp run at solent 1/2 recently told me after a few miles sunday he felt great and pushed on to achieve his target 2.49.
  • Electric SheepElectric Sheep ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    Is now the right time to mention that there is a 3rd edition of the P&D book, released a few weeks ago? No idea if any of the plans are different, but the blurb does say it contains "a new chapter for the older marathoner. This features training, nutrition and recovery information to help you sail through your training regime."  :D Perhaps Santa can bring me one in December. I saw him at Abo running a 2:49, should've asked him when I had the chance!
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Best get on it then CW and LMH, i cant possibly buy a new copy so soon......i have orange shoes to save up for.
  • WardiWardi ✭✭✭
    ES.. I wonder what they mean by 'the older marathoner:)  
    TR.. I did a similar short run after VLM and it did seem to shake a bit of stiffness out of my legs.  I have to sit on a plane for 3.5 hours in the morning (off to Malta for a bit of R&R) and I don't like sitting for that long with stiff legs.  I doubt I'll run again until the weekend but have packed a singlet & shorts, plus swimming stuff.
    Menn.. at least you seem to be in a treatment process, hopefully they can sort you out one way or another.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Enjoy yourself then wardi

    Ok, vaporfly watch is on,  £189 is the best i can seen. It was £167 a few weeks ago too. I reckon the pink and green will drive down the 4% prices, but it depends upon stock levels.
  • Sounds like a 7.45 BBC 2 program that TR. Indeed re the short leg, however he suggested that a short psoas on the left and a tight hammy on the right would twist my hips and exaggerate any issue there was. Ill know on Thursday
    Chiro told me to take a pill and try again tomorrow and hope its just a minor blip along the recovery road so well see. 
    Im off to put the hem up on on one leg of all my trousers now......
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    Well you have to trust in the professionals, i think you'll get there in time, and will have the tools in place to manage your issues......have to say that my back is better than it was saturday, so movement is good, its just not ideal for it to be 26m after a few pain killers. Getting moving and keeping moving is the answer, its defo dawned on me in the last yr that it needs a bit of faster running as i get older,otherwise i will get slower.
  • Read all the reports, thanks for taking the time! Interesting stuff in there, but can’t get over the HR stuff. I found it hard enough dividing Berlin up into 8 5k’s and a bit! I tend to go on ‘how buggered I feel’ and slow down if I’m feeling tired. Marathons are brutal though. 

    Selbs? Stevenage half is quite runnable, not as hilly as you’d expect. And if you get an Westerly wind it’s not a bad course. 
  • Happy holidays Wardi! Medoc would be lovely if I could eat the offerings:-)

    TR - a leg length discrepancy can be functional or structural so Mennania could have developed one by building a muscular imbalance over time. I'd rather have a Garmin than magic shoes - better return on the investment.

    ES - I'll be interested in a review if you do get the book. As I don't follow a schedule I'm not buying another copy without good cause.

    Mennania - no money for a coach unfortunately. When I was doing long distance tri I had a coach and it was really beneficial but that was because I was very fortunate and started with him when he moved from competing to coaching so he was still cheap and had the time to give me a level of accessibility and feedback that would cost a fortune now.

    IIRC Crab was adamant that it was seeing a Pilates instructor for one to one sessions that was so beneficial for him - he didn't advocate a class - and unfortunately economics prevent me seeking that out too.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • 5k jog and stretch this morning. feels good to be back out. could have done without the few wines last night. 
  • shawk -- I have seriously worried about whether I'll be able to get downstairs sometimes (my bedroom is on the 2nd floor!). After my Bob Graham Round, I felt like I'd been run over by a freight train -- I had not just stiff legs, but a stiff back, and stiff _feet_. But it's only in the most recent ultra especially where I felt the recovery was suddenly 2 or 3 weeks instead of one week, and I just wasn't getting back to form.

    Today however I'm a bit creaky but moving OK, after two days of more significant DOMS. So not _too_ bad. I was consciously not going all out at York (but broke that rule a bit in the latter stages) to avoid damage.

    LMH -- I'm definitely thinking about strength training for my beleaguered muscles.

    ES/TR -- aha, I just heard about the 3rd ed P&D having a chapter for old gits like me yesterday, was going to mention it too!


  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    LMH - shame re the coach. Dont forget that crab was trying to avoid an op not make marginal gains, a class session would be fine........have you cracked and run yet? My legs feel runnable, i have no real desire to run but will get going in a day or 2 as i want to do ok at Gosport.

    CW - maybe yourself, LMH and me should all buy a copy?
  • Thoroughly enjoyed reading up on all the exploits from the weekend, and the frenzy of activity on the forum as a result of it. Just a shame we're not all running marathon's every weekend!

    Re; DOMs, the worst I've ever had led me to limp around the rest of our Croatian holiday like I'd been shot in both quads. It took over a week before I felt normal again. That's what you get for doing a hilly mountain marathon off zero training I guess!

    Training as usual this week, with just a slight reduction ahead of Frankfurt. Luckily they've got a parkrun there, so we can squeeze it in before settling down in front of the rugby. 

    Only goal is to keep pace with the better half, so how hard it is will depend on how fast she runs! Assuming I don't get left behind..
  • JoolskaJoolska ✭✭✭
    CW: curious about your recovery times.  I have pain walking after a flat out marathon for several days and wouldn't usually be even contemplating a run until the Friday or Saturday after the race.  An ultra presumably has a longer recovery time than a marathon. I'd hazard a guess you tried to get back into things too quickly after your ultras and your body is now crying out for an easy month (or even two).

    10 miles for me this morning and then a sports massage.  Back to work properly tomorrow after a couple of lazier days (sometimes being self-employed rocks!).
  • selbsselbs ✭✭✭

    i've got a Bday on Saturday, have put in a request for the new P&D edition!  Maybe following a proper programme is what i need.

    I've entered the MK winter half in the end as that weekend worked best for me, so something to have a mini goal to keep training for (after a week or two of binging!)

    went to the gym today, cycled 30 minutes and jogged 10 mintues.  My legs are largely fine apart from the hamstrings glutes which were sore to begin with.

    Oh Menn - yeah its a chest strap, the wrist based stuff doesnt work at all.  There was no problem with the HR anyway, just with my body! Coudl be I need a bit of this age related strengethening work as well i think. Hope todays run has gone OK btw.

    Good luck this weekend JB.  Still going well there it seems Joolska.

  • Electric SheepElectric Sheep ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    Nice one Selbs. I may see you at the MK Winter Half. Need to find something to focus on for the next few weeks!

    DOMS ok here, almost went for a run at lunch time! Decided to hold back though, no point in rushing.
  • I'm generally ok to run the day after any race, albeit slowly.

    I did run today TR, decided four miles would be sensible so did six as I was enjoying being out so much. Left leg isn't totally happy but no worse when running or after.

    Top job selbs - you can scan in the new chapter and mail it to all us old codgers:-)

    I'm sure you'll do a top job Joe.

    Not being funny Charlie but you've reached the age where you should be doing something, my physio assures me it doesn't take much to stop that particular aspect of ageing from being an issue.

    Sounds as though you'll be out there tomorrow if it's a nice day ES.

    I may have found a way forward - at least for now. I discovered a previously untried version of the Garmin HRM strap which I wore today without discomfort (though obviously it was only a short run) so I plan to just wear it whilst running for a few weeks and see what the numbers come out as and then maybe do a bit of training to HR (which worked for me when tri training). I could hit HR numbers before if not pace. P&D advocate doing the LSR at up to 85% of MHR so most runs would be that or lower with up to 20% of miles at a higher HR (I think that's the current thinking - will do some more research).


    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    LMH - ha ha, didnt think youd last the week.

    Strength work is important, im also coming round to the need to do some quality work as an older runner too.
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