Sub 3



  • LMH - Im all for the techy approach. there is a free plug in to Strava called elevate which produces all kind of fitness trends and graphs based on HR. Might be worth a look for you

    Im coming round to S&C being pretty critical to keep me mobile and efficient. I intend to keep it all up but I need to map it into my mind as I know that id still go out for a 4 mile recovery before doing half an hour on the mat. 

    8 miles round and round on the school playing field after 2 ibuprofen to banish yesterdays debacle. Nothing to report-pain level of 1. No ill feelings 4 hrs later.  I think ill keep off tarmac for a couple of weeks and buy some Hokas. Cross train tomorrow and maybe a sloooow 3 mile recovery. Gunning for 25-30 easy miles this week.

    Selbs - be interesting to hear what bits grab your attention.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    Good to see a bit of progress menn.

    I had my P and D book out tonight, and I'm up for it,  18wk 70 to 85 mpw, i never follow a schedule so it should do me good, although it will need a bit of moving around to fit my week. Theres 4 mp runs within long runs and they should do me good.
  • Looking forward to your experiment TR. Im betting on a positive return. I
  • Little M.iss HappyLittle M.iss Happy ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    Glad you were able to enjoy a run Mennania. I'm not techy and don't do Strava, maths and graphs boggle my blond brain :-) When do you see the physio? I do my gym program as a double day - it's only half an hour.

    Yesterday's run was where I would have guessed it was effort wise so it could be that even though it's been five years since my accident the years of HR training have left me with a good judgement of effort level. Once I'm recovered it will be interesting to see if I can raise the HR into Z3 (I work on three zones).

    Go for it TR.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • Im with him and the ortho tonite to get all measured up. Looking forward to hearing what they have to say re structural/functional given the Chiro has cleared me.

    I dont use 80% of it - the graphs just confirm and give a numerical value what I should already know (undertraining/overtraining)etc. 
  • selbs, ES -- I did the MK winter half (delayed due to weather). But I skidded out on a corner, getting road rash on me -- and my Garmin watch face!

    Jools -- looking back at my training log, my recovery from the 100K this year was a lot slower than after the Camino (114K) last year, when I was trying to cram a bit to train for Chester shortly afterwards. It felt like something had "changed".

    LMH -- if you're training to HR, don't trust the wrist-based HR. I have been a bit lax with strength work to date, just doing some core exercises and some for my glutes etc once a week.

  • Is wrist-based HR consistently wrong in the same direction or just wildly inaccurate? If it's the former then you should be able to use it as it's all relative?

    Is the P&D worth a read or is it fine just to take the spreadsheet and roll with that? Would be tempted to follow that for next time.

    10 miles bang on 3 hour pace today. Had my rain jacket on which hides the Garmin so ran to feel for first 5 miles (avg 6:49) then hit a muddy section down the canal so dropped to 7:12 pace for 3 miles then picked it up for last 2 to 6:30. Really chuffed with that for two reasons. One, because I wasn't sure I would be up to pace again so quick after Sunday and two because the elements were against me and it just felt like one of those days where you have to grit your teeth and get on with it. Gentle 5 miles tomorrow and then 20+ miles Saturday in anticipation of not being able to run much after Saturday's halloween party!
  • Electric SheepElectric Sheep ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    SC2 - I don't think there's much difference between "how buggered do I feel" and using HR! I tend to use effort level as my primary guide, but then HR as a backup, just to make sure that my brain isn't trying to trick me. I also find HR useful to make sure I'm not under-performing, as it can be a bit too easy to start taking your foot off the gas a little bit, especially in a marathon. But if you can do all that anyway, then an HR monitor isn't going to provide much benefit, other than some numbers to look at.

    - I did MK winter half one year and had to wade through a foot of water at one of the underpasses! Still might give it another go though.

    TR - P&D 70-85 got me my result at Abingdon, so make of that what you will!

    RJR - I think the book is worth a read at least once, although I will freely admit that I barely look at it these days, having converted the plans into a spreadsheet several years ago.
  • Little M.iss HappyLittle M.iss Happy ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    Wrist based HRMs are just wildly inconsistent and inaccurate on me - my husband's works fine for him.

    Was tempted by the MK half but we are seeing Dido the night before in Sheffield so that's a no. Berlin is a maybe though I have until the 31st to make my mind up/persuade Mark.

    What was the outcome Mennania?

    I've been offered this for the bargain price of £65:

    This package includes the following battery of tests: 

    ·      Body composition assessment using bioelectrical impedance  

    ·      Blood lactate assessment 


    ·         VO2 max

      Once we have identified clear lactate turn points the protocol will change to 1 minute steps which you complete until exhaustion. This will enable VO2 max to be calculated. 

    ·         Running Economy Test – 3 X 4 minute Sub Max pace with gas analysis

     This package comes with advanced analysis of your results and training zones, provides you with some more accurate performance modelling and comparison to pros and identifies specific sessions which you can target to improve your weaknesses and maximise your strengths.’


    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    LMH - depends upon waht you do with the results, if you use it to make changes and work on any perceived weaknesses then maybe, if you dont intend to act upon it then save your cash. Is it targetted for marathons?

    ES - noted, Marigold and stu both went sub 230 off it too.

    5m easy today, legs were pretty good.
  • The idea would be to use it to inform my training TR - it's a bit of a waste of money otherwise!
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Go for it then, esp if they give you training advice, and you will follow it. There must be gains yo be had from different stimuli.
  • Im a fan of P&D as I managed 5 min gains each time out using it. Its worth a read - particularly the bit that tells you the purpose of each run. 

    With him at 7pm tonite @Little M.iss Happy - Re the VO2 test - ive had it done a couple of times and Its interesting to get the results - Must admit that they've never influenced my training much once ive had them though as the zoned didnt fit with my view of where I was at.
  • There would be a discussion of what I've been doing training wise and what they think I should be looking at doing to improve based on the results.

    How do you mean Mennania? Hope you get an answer this evening.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • saintjasonsaintjason ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    I've always wanted to do one of those performance tests LMH. I think it would be beneficial to know th he exact paces/zones to be doing. Does this mean you would try to do more threshold and faster training? 

    I find my wrist HR ok on my Polar. It has lag when changing speeds quickly compared to the strap but other than that, it's pretty good actually. It's one of the main reasons I switched from garmin as Polar are known for their HR stuff.

    I take it most folks are bumping the long runs up on P&D schedules? I think I learned that in here actually. I did up to 70mpw for York. Not sure I could do much more but I know I didn't do those fast finishes. Might be time to stick to one religiously again.

    Callum Hawkins has a coaching service. £120 for a custom twelve week programme with initial advice and regular analysis via email seems very reasonable? 

    DOMs all but gone here. Still taking it easy and mentally recharging. No desire to get back running just yet. 
  • SJ - I used the upto 70 and stepped upto the the 85 for the 4 weeks before taper. I tend to stick steadfastly to the one quality session, MLR and LSR per week but jumble which quality session and the 20s about to suit races and life. I some times give up the shorter LT and VO2 quality run for a Parkrun. Good news on the Doms

    They gave me all the HR and pace zones for training @Little M.iss Happy but they were quite a way out of sync with what I was training to at the time and as I was a bit through a 12 week programme I just carried on with the paces I planned,

    12mm structural shortage on the right leg. 5mm is accepted as a reasonable tolerance. Ive bought heel inserts and am to carry on and let them bed in. He thinks I have compounding functional issues with my right psoas and left Hammy which has pushed/pulled my hip up on the right hand side and exacerbated the problem.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    Sj - theres around 6 x 20 somethings in the 18 wk 70 to 85 plan with 24 peak, plus 4 long runs with blocks of mp in them,  and 17s and 18s, so not sure ill extend too many long runs. Stu did sub 2.30 following it exactly, not sure if that was edition 1 or 2. I think edition 2 has more mp in long runs? Not sure what edition 3 would have mp wise, might be worth a new book for chrimbo. I will defo struggle to hit paces in the mlrs as ill commute them, but its only a guide after all.

    Menn - thats a lot of difference, hopefully some of that is just the body imbalance due to hip lifting etc some physio straightening up plus the heel lift will hopefully sort you out, plus the pilstes etc

    Claimed my Abo result, Abo was classed as a slower day than i expected by run brit rankings, slighly slower  score than last yr when it was a warm day. Maybe a colder day isnt as quick as a moderately warm day ?
  • A colder day definitely isn't as quick for me TR.

    That sounds positive Mennania in that you have a potential solution. The orthotics (I have custom made - expensive but exactly the right height and have lasted for over ten years) definitely made a difference to me after I'd done all I could functionally. None of us are 100% biomechanically but there comes a point where the body can't compensate as effectively which is why we can continue for years and be ok then suddenly it's overload and we have an issue.

    sj - yes, the idea would be that it would determine where I needed to get to HR wise for what percentage of my mileage to hopefully improve performance. When I tri trained I did it to HR and found that I could hit the required HR whereas I can't hit the paces that 'should' equate to so hopefully this would allow me to continue to enjoy my running.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    LMH - i used to chase HR sometimes on the turbo to entertain myself, and if i was fatigued i struggled at lower HRs. So i guess they will set you shorter recoveey days and harder days with sessions etc. HR is relative to pace so you will need to be fresher to hit HRs and therefore pace?

    5m easy agsin here today.
  • OuchOuchOuchOuch ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    ,Joe - Good luck at Frankfurt and good luck to Katie to.
    - Progress: you've done surprisingly well then so far with such structural impediments.  
    TR - The Next% are a mere £191 on Sportshoes with the SDA7 code.  Very very close top buying them, matter of time.  Superior and more durable it would seem compared to the Vaporfly 4's. 
    Interesting to read the race reports from last weekend and how many of you are using HR, not something I've done in the past.  
    The lurgy has more or less cleared and about to venture out, not appealing  when its getting dark, pissing down outside with a 55 mph wind.  Hospital silent on a possible hernia date so current plan now is to run Malaga marathon in mid-December so looking forward to saying hello again Sunday LSR in a bit of a scrambled together plan. 
  • Cold, wet and windy here too OuchOuch but not quite as bad as you have it I don't think.

    TR - HR not necessarily related to pace as such, terrain, weather, stress etc will all impact as well as fatigue but I found I was able to work in the correct HR zone when I trained to HR whereas I just can't hit the paces that the schedules like P&D want. It will mean making sure my easy is easy enough and hopefully taking out any grey areas. As I said they won't give me a schedule as such but will suggest how much time I need to spend in which zone.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    OO - yes, i have that code. Would rather go for it with the 4% at 168 using that code, but the newer ones are probably a better shoe and more rubust. I can bide my time yet, as i dont need to "race" in a pair until April, but would want to try them out in fleet 1/2 in March.

    In other news, i realised today that i need to have a mental recalibration and change mp to 6.3X again. Its been a while !
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    LMH - well im sure that the change of stimuli and the mix of short and easy with harder days will do you good. I wouldnt be able to hit some of the p and d paces either, but i won't get too bent out of shape about that esp on the mlrs. There is always the option to do some of the longer mp runs in 1/2 maras, but i think its also good to try to do them in training as that will indicate fitness better.
  • I don't have the time, money or inclination to go chasing races as training runs either TR.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    I meant for me, you wont be doing p and d. ive done plenty of 1/2s tired due to mara training, but havnt tried it at mp yet, but i might give it a go, i have 2 x 1/2 and a 10m all booked for feb and march and i cant do them all full on esp with short tapers etc we'll see.
  • MennaniaMennania ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    LMH/TR - Quite interested in what speedwork, HMP/PMP you guys would traditionally do in a Mara build up? 

    FWIW I would race the fastest of them TR and either MP or progressive with a fast finish the others.  
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    Menn - fair enough, i have a 1/2 6ish weeks out and another about 10 or 11........this time i did some 3 min reps and some 6m tempos, i have done BAC type sessions in the past too (mixed length tempo reps) and have run maras off no faster running at all. Never followed a proper schedule for anything, and only done a few sessions of anything each campaign.
  • Looking forward to seeing how you get in with it TR. I think the 1/2 6 weeks out will be a good marker of MP condition however you choose to run it. I tend not to hit the MP runs with any consistency or control until around then.
  • None unless I race Mennania - though I do try to make my long runs progressive and finish most runs with a 'fast last mile'.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • saintjasonsaintjason ✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    Best of luck to Joe and Mrs Joe at Frankfurt and to anyone else racing this weekend although cant be many after last weekend.

    Torrential rain the last 24 hours and the forecast looks like more of the same. Good job I'm staying indoors. I bet Wardi is enjoying some better conditions. 
Sign In or Register to comment.