Junk miles

I was doing a 5.5 mile recovery run today after a hard tempo run yesterday and I started to wonder....is a recovery run 'junk miles'????

What defines a 'junk mile'??

If I run, say 10 miles and feel that I could run round the village for another two miles, are the two extra miles 'junk'? Why? I would regard them as building endurance..

Anyone help???
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Comments

  • mulemule ✭✭✭
    Junk miles = myth. In my opinion.
  • interesting theory, Sam. care to elaborate?
  • So Achilles...what's your opinion???
  • Me thinks so long as you are running for a reason and not just for the sake of it then thats fine. I think junk miles are what you'd do for the sole purpose of upping your mileage with no real aim?

  • I don't consider recovery runs as junk mileage. As the name suggests they enable you to recover from hard seesions. This is how I would define 'junk mileage'. If you take all the 'quality' runs (tempo, reps, hills, long, ...etc), they all have an objective. If there is no objective to a particular run then I would regard that as 'junk'.

    Someone will say I've got it completely wrong! Shoot, I can take it !!

    Cheers,
    FLM
  • mulemule ✭✭✭
    Ok. So Junk miles = myth is perhaps too strong. I wouldn't run just for the sake of the mileage. I always run to how I feel.

    Just trying to be a little bit controversial to see if my understanding of what people meant by Junk miles was correct.

  • On the other hand, would not going for a five-mile run on the grounds of 'quality' count as junk seriousness? Shouldn't we all keep our seriousness for stuff like the Iraq thing, mortgages and relationships? Or is all seriousness good?

    I'll be out for a five-mile run at a lazy speed tomorrow because that's what I'll fancy doing, thus conserving my seriousness for my race on Sunday.

    ;-)
  • Aren’t "junk miles" ones where you are training below your RE (running economy) heart rate. This would not include a gentle recovery run because the purpose of the training session is recovery.
  • OK..so, if I do two recovery runs a week, do they count towards the overall weekly mileage??

    JoohnnyJ, thanks for your thoughts on the distance thing...I just feel that if I only run 3 miles at slow pace that I've somehow 'cheated'..Strange maybe but I normally have Mon and Fri as rest days and couldn't really contemplate skipping another day as I won't do the miles I think I should...In fact I'm pretty sure I run my recovery runs too fast anyway..
  • I think whether or not you are running junk miles is determined by how much quality mileage you are putting in.

    in other words, if you are running really hard on your hard days and you've scheduled enough of them, your other mileage is not going to be junk mileage, but valid recovery mileage to keep everything ticking over properly.

    if you are only running a few quality workouts and you run them at a pretty conservative pace, and then you run your oher mileage at the usual recommended "talk-test" recovery pace (or whatever equivalent you choose), then you are running junk miles. too much of your mileage has low training value and you're not going to get faster in a hurry.

    if your goal is to get quicker (and not everybody's is), then run as much quality mileage as you can and make it count. then run as much mileage in between as you feel like doing. the reality is that some weeks you'll feel like going forever and other you won't be able to manage more than 3-4 miles on your recovery days. I'd say, it really doesn't matter - if you want to do more, do more, if you need to do less, do less, just let your body decide. there is no need for recovery mileage to be a regimented affair.

    the main thing is to be fresh enough to tackle that next hard session comfortably, to get the most training benefit out of it and not get injured in the process.

    does that make any sense? probably not ;-)

  • Thanks Achilles...seems to make sense to me..typical week for me (all things being equal) is:

    Sunday Long run (currently 16 miles 18 this w/e)
    Monday Rest
    Tuesday Track session or tempo run
    Wednesday @recovery run'
    Thursday Tempo or hills
    Friday Rest
    Saturday 4-6 miles easy..don't want to overdo it before Sunday..

    So what changes would you advise??

    My PB (Helsby) for a 1/2 is 1.46.53 and I'm aiming for sub 4 hrs for FLM.

  • I've wondered about this too Ratbag. I don't know if there's an official definition of junk miles but it's a term that seems to be used quite disparagingly and without taking account sometimes of the many different reasons people run.

    Recovery runs definitely count towards your weekly mileage, nobody's going to persuade me otherwise! 'Junk miles' for me are those occasions I trudge around for a slow run on very tired legs and without any pleasure whatsoever. Then I think I'd be better off with a rest day, or a bike ride.
    My definition of a recovery run is any runs under 70%whr and under an hour say. My recovery runs are currently 5-7 miles, I don't feel they're too long and usually find them relaxing.

    Finally I'm with Swerve, do all runs have to have a 'purpose'? Sometimes it's good to run just because the sun's shining , regardless of where it fits on your schedule.
  • Got to agree with you there Laura..I like to run just for the pleasure of it but marathon training, as you know, has a habit of pressurising you to run, which for me takes a little of the fun out of it...

    I hope one of the regulars on here can give ma a little advice regarding the training routine though..

    I hope yours is still going well...
  • I think even 'junk' miles help to develop capillaries in your muscles, thereby contributing to stamina and endurance.
  • yes, I'd agree with Laura too - especially on the point about not running when you know you'd be better off staying at home or doing something else. though not every run is going to be a delight, if too many of them feel like a chore, then you have to question what you are doing lacing up your shoes. only professional athletes *have* to run - we should be doing it because we want to.

    and of course all mileage counts.

    Ratbag - on the subject of your schedule ...

    it looks fine to me. two rest days is sensible for what you are trying to achieve and your long runs are looking good already. if you were thinking of tweaking it, however ...

    for my money, I'd make Tuesday a track session and Thursday a tempo run or vice versa, but make sure you do one of each religiously every week.

    try and run your tempo runs @ 1/2M pace for maximum benefit and for anything between 20-40 minutes. this is a crucial workout at this and any the distance.

    you don't need to be doing hills too often for FLM as the course is very flat - hills do make you stronger, but you're getting in enough mileage to take care of that. I'd certainly not sacrifice a tempo run to do hills!

    you might want to try turning your Saturday session into an easy fartlek (about 6 miles in total) to add an extra (easier) speed session. you'll probably find that it doesn't tire you out for Sunday's long run, and you might even feel less tired - fartlek is like that, oddly. (if you want to do hills, you could try doing some short 200m reps (up to about 10) on this day.)

    best of luck.

  • RB, your schedule mirrors mine except for 2 slight differences:

    1. my long runs a little longer than yours
    2. Saturday's is not as easy as yours. I try to do some reps (don't always achieve what I set out to do mind!).

    And my target is much nearer the 3hr mark than the 4. If you carry with what you are doing, I have no doubt that you'll surprise yourself come April 13.

    All the best,
    FLM
  • PS. you didn't say how long your Wednesday run actually is, after all that.
  • I long for the day that I can run and call it 'recovery'.
  • DustinDustin ✭✭✭
    Hello RB,

    To add my cents worth, I'd determine 'junk' miles as those added to an otherwise effective session to build up the weekly total.
    So if you've done some hard (200/400m)speedwork say totalling 6 miles , but the schedule says you need to do eight then doing two miles for the sake of it is 'junk'.

    Re your schedule I'd definitely make a tempo run a weekly thing : if you're targetting a halfM then up to at least 8 miles,preferably 10.I do mine on a Thursday with regular reps on a Tuesday, and definitely see the benefit.

    On Saturdays,I alternate specific hills/fartlek/strides depending on whats on for Sunday.I also incorporate hillwork into the long run (ie when I meet a hill I run up them harder) makes it easier come race time....well thats the theory :D

    Hopefully see you soon and good luck with the running
  • Cheers Achilles and dustin,

    FYI, my Wednesday run i.e. today's was 5.5 miles. I did this in 45.15. For me this is a good pace and maybe a bit fast for a recovery run..

    My 'tempo run' was yesterday..just over 6 miles in 47.20. Just under 8 min lies yesterday and just over today. There are hills on both runs but more on yesterdays.

    Dustin, all my long runs incorporate hills; I can't avoid them where I live. I do try to push it up them if I have the strength.

    I do normally do reps on a Tuesday but did the tempo run yesterday.

    BTW, can you only define tempo with a hrm or is it just a run at the edge of what you can achieve?

    Hope to see you guys soon..
  • I do junk miles every wekk i think
  • Ratbag -

    sounds like your tempo pace is very good for your marathon target time, although by the look of it you're being very conservative about your goal.

    there are some differences of opinion as to what pace benefits you most, but for most purposes I think you'll get the best out of doing them at 1/2M race pace. some people do a lot of "tempo" running at marathon pace (for the marathon), but really this is not quite the same thing - it's really just race practice. it certainly won't deliver the same physiological benefits.

    anyway, you sound like you're well on track for a great time.
  • I would never presume to call any other runner's miles "junk miles", but I've run a few of my own in the past.
  • i haven't read all the posts, but there is, i think, no such thing as a junk mile. you cannot not gain a beneficial efect from any mile run. a mile run will always benefit you,. even if only in the slightest way. however, there are times when you should not run, like when you should rest completely through injury, or on that one magic daya week whjich is called "day off", that's when you really recover, build up the glycogen again and get ready for running all those miles in the up and coming week, every one of which will not be junk because you are taking this seriously and treating your running and your body with respect enough to know when and when not to train.

    you can't runna junk mile...you can run too many too soon. this will ruin you. then your miles will be run in a junk fashion(but they still won't be junk).

    this post is only half opinion.

    phil
  • Sounds like you're well on track for a sub4 Ratbag, your recovery runs are a damn sight faster than mine!
    I've been evangelical about tempo runs at 1/2m pace since starting them in the autumn, convinced it's made far more difference than anything else I do.

    Happy non junking.
  • I'm with Laura on the value of tempo runs. In fact I now do nothing else but tempo runs ! I've tried fartlek and long slow distance in the past, but nothing improves my pace like running as fast as I can for a set distance. This is particularly true if you don't have time to run 4 or 5 times a week. My average is only twice a week (8 or 10 miles tempo runs) and yet I've improved my half marathon time by five minutes over the past 2 years to 1.29.30 (Helsby).

    So I guess what I'm saying is that you have to find your own training method that works for you, not just slavishly follow schedules, and it may be a lot simpler than you think. I'm proof that you can still run reasonably well on less than 20 miles a week with nothing other than tempo runs.

    Have fun,
    Ian
  • I'm also with Laura on tempo runs at 1/2m pace. In the first half of training I do them at marathon pace while building endurance and then in the second half I move up to 1/2m pace when concentrating on speed. They really seem to make the biggest difference to overall fitness.
  • MinksMinks ✭✭✭
    I've been wondering about this too. Trouble is that there is so much divided opinion on the subject of training that you just end up confused about what you 'should' be doing.

    I'm still a relatively new runner, and haven't yet raced further than 5K, although I'm keen to work up to a half later in the year, possibly with a couple of 10Ks and possibly a 10-miler en route.

    Despite various explanations, I have to confess I'm still not 100% sure what a 'tempo' run is. I just run these faster than a normal steady pace, and quite a bit faster than recovery pace. I also have difficulty with pacing generally, as even though I know the mile markers along my training routes it's quite difficult to keep the pace the same when some parts are steep uphills and others are descents (it's impossible to run a flat route from where I live).

    Currently I run as follows:

    Sunday - long run (up to 7.5 miles at present, which took me 1 hour 1 minute at a pace that felt steady but relaxed).
    Monday - recovery run of about 4 miles, about 30 seconds per mile slower than the long run.
    Wednesday - tempo run of 4.1 miles along a fairly undulating route. Sometimes I try to run fast throughout, other times I push it up the hills then hang back a bit to recover without dropping the pace too much. I average 7:50 per mile on these runs.
    Friday - have just started doing some speed work on these runs. Not sure of the best types of speedwork for me: have tried a short-ish, hilly route doing some fartlek, and a flattish route doing intervals of 2 minutes fast, two minutes recovery for 5 repeats, then a jog back at the end which is all uphill.

    I did wonder if my recovery run was 'junk' mileage and whether it would make any difference to have an extra rest day instead, but I only run four times a week and don't want my mileage to suffer too much. My other difficulty is that I can't really increase the length of my weeknight runs too much as they would just end up cutting into the evening too much.

    Am I on the right track with this kind of schedule? I don't have any specific goal in mind (i.e. I haven't entered a specific race, just have an idea of what I'd like to do later in the year).
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