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A bit of a harsh mother?
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FR - point taken about 'savant' skills, I was trying to explain the usual classification for purposes of communication & comprehension, rather than what i think (I wouldn't cut up the PDD spectrum that neatly - i'd see everything as more like a set of overlapping Venn diagrams rather than exact categories, and I think that multiple scales for things like theory of mind, reading ability, co-ordination, sensory anomalies, etc are more useful than categorisation by diagnosis. However, I'm rather wary of being described as ASD because it usually leads people to say 'No you aren't, you're a girl / you can talk / you can do theory of mind stuff / you don't look weird', or to decide that I can't possibly do anything I do do and I should go & be an accountant).
I agree that IQ tests are a very blunt instrument, but looking at performance on individual subscales can be a useful diagnostic tool for PDD - if administered properly by someone who's trained in their use (which hardly ever happens - it's a year-long postgrad qualification on top of other professional training) then they can be very helpful to show specific areas of strength & weakness compared to self & appropriate population norms.
Badly administered IQ tests though are less than useless, and I think that group tests (increasingly popular in schools) are a particular problem for PDDs in this regard. I got stuck in the 'life skills' stream at secondary school for a while (no-one else could actually read) - kept losing ~100 points because I couldn't fill in the computer-scored reply sheets which were lots of really tiny boxes which kept changing direction from left to right to up to down, practically impossible for a dyspraxic to fill in. Hit test ceiling when I was allowed to say the answers though.
BTW, is the person on the video the same one behind Getting The Truth Out?
I think it is the same person as "getting the truth out".
I was interested in the byplay with the cat, as it reminded me of the relationship Mrs has with her dog. I may be imagining it but I always get the feeling that there's some sort of communication going on between them that I'm missing...
One of the most interesting questions (IMHO) about savant skills is whther they are a hyperfocused version of what the normal brain does (ie anyone, given obsessive training & concentration, could do the same thing by the same route), or whether they represent a novel cognitive approach to problem-solving (they are a 'short-cut' to the solution rather than going through all the usual steps). Either way, finding out a proper answer could be absolutely fascinating & hold some profound implications for the way both PDDs and NT intelligence are understood.
My guess is on synaesthesia being involved somewhere, but anyway, it'd be an incredible area to research & once serious brain scans get a bit cheaper then a lot of these questions will be answered. I wonder what will happen then?
I have been instructed to revise my previous comments, as Mrs FR pointed out that she does have some traits that she believes must be truly savant. For example she can tell me exactly how many sheep are in a pen at Bakewell market simply by looking at them (and I'm talking about several dozen here). It might take me two or three attempts to count and get the correct answer and certainly longer than the few seconds it takes her (and she rarely if ever gets it wrong). She's also been known to settle disputes at our local over the score in a darts game, without necessarily appearing to have paid the game any attention, she knows exactly what the score is.
I think the thing that upsets and disturbs me most about the CAN and Autism Speaks campaigns are the way they use imagry to desex and dehumanise (particuilarly) female subjects, and then uses that to reinforce the message of the "tragedy" of the transition form "attractive" little girl to "Ugly" adult, and the idea that these things must be "eliminated".
Fopr the record - Mrs FR is a very attractive woman, and dresses far better than a lot of Neurotypical women of her age (although seeing her wandering around in dungerees and pigtails just now you wouldn't think it :-))
it is his favourite subject
but he can't do tricks like telling you what day your birthday will be on next year and stuff (although he did work out how many seconds till the end of term once)
he can do "pure" maths
i think he is of average intelligence
and also has Aspergers
:-)
oh actually he remembers car number plates as well
maybe i am just being dim and not noticing what he is doing
Little brother is doing a Maths degree but i can't think of anyone else in the family who just does straight maths (a few each for engineering, chemistry, biochemistry, and one does quantum mechanics as a hobby & used it to invent a new sort of electricity transformer).
I do keep remembering my way round by the numbers written on lamp-posts, but i think tha's more about me reading everything & weird attention to detail than numbers.
It is worth remembering that only maybe 1% of people with an ASD diagnosis have a full savant skill. a jagged academic / intellectual profile is a significant diagnostic feature of many PDDs, so it's not surprising that savant skills occur more commonly in PDDs than the general population.
except that because you are an adult you probably don't do it out loud
whereas boy1 does
and it drives me nuts
is that part of it too?
Take the supermarket thing. As an NT when I walk in I know where the vegetable aisle is, and the meat and the deli counter. I might know a bit more detail, like where the carrots are on the vegetable aisle. I might in a few places know what a particular product looks like - like the instant noodles are on the bottom shelf of the pasta aisle on the right in the yellow packages.
So when I change things round I can't find stuff and it makes me grumpy (although the phsycology is that it makes me buy more stuff). I have to redraw my "map" in my miind. But thats OK as it only happens a couple of times a year.
Someone on the lower end of the spectrum with (say) mild aspergers might map things down to the second level of granularity (where the carrots are etc). So the map is more complex and needs redrawing more often. So someone with aspergers might get grumpy every couple of weeks.
At the more severe end (where Mrs FR is) the level of granularity gets progressively more detailed, as does the map, and the frequency with which things change. So the grumpiness level goes up, to the point where sometimes we have a meltdown. There's just too much information to deal with
From week to week she can just about manage. If she gets stuck, or worried she'll stand still until I come and find her. Usually she'll be standing focussing on a particular object or product or reciting something. At the supermarket we go to they've got used to her doing this. generally they just carry on working round her, but if they think she's been there too long they'll come and find me.
Of course she's learned, over the years, to cope like this. You couldn't expect a young child to be able to do it. So a kid with ASD will probably just tantrum in these circumstances.
Also, and I don't know why this is worse some weeks than others, he sometimes can't steer the trolley (and it's not because of dodgy wheels before anyone suggests that) and the trolley just bumps everything and everyone in sight - it's as if he can't judge the distance. Yet other times, he's fine with the trolley.
As traumatic as it can be. Shopping remains one of his favourite activities ... but only food shopping. Clothes shopping makes him feel sick.
Goes to Matalan on her own quite a lot. Finds that to be OK as they don't shift stuff round too much. The staff tned to be a bit less "Boutique snooty" as well.
I always push the trolly - it'd be a demolition derby otherwise :-))
Somebody from University of York ( Margaret somebody ? ) was quoted. If you like I can post it to you.
HATE clothes shopping, especially if i have to try things on. Charity shops tend to be a bit easier to cope with. 'fashion' shops like 'Miss Selfridge' are horrible - loud music, lots of people, weird lighting, & visually cluttered. I'm quite picky about what I'll wear though in terms of texture - don't like anything tickly (wool) or slippery (silk, polyester) or too tight. Fortunately, scruffy baggy jeans & a jumper don't exactly stand out on campus, and my cousin who does Fashion Design at uni can be relied on to tell me what to wear if i do need to look more dressed-up. No-one will ever get me to wear shoes with heels though.
I read EVERYTHING. if it's there, it gets read. when i was small if i misbehaved then i'd get my books taken away - but then i'd hide the telephone directory & read that. can't remember reading aloud much (i didnt talk much at all when i was little - learned to read faster really) but i did used to repeat everything people said back to them before i'd answer (technically called echolalia). brother did this too & still does sometimes (he's 20). he will also repeat verbatim big chunks of what someone else has said if the subject ever comes up again, which people found really quite disconcerting when he was younger as he wasn't using age-appropriate volcabulary or ideas. i try & avoid that - except in exams, when it's useful.
at university I had my eye movements tracked and I had eye movements which would suggest that I was dyslexic ( repeatable ).
i'm not dyslexic and at primary school had a reading age that far exceeded my real age.
I hate clothes shopping, hate shopping centres
I don't think that makes me asd !
FR - i like the 'granularity' explanation, that's a really good way of putting it. stuff changing too much for me is a bit like my Mum (who's NT) and Birmingham. She grew up there but left 46 years ago, and it has changed a lot since then. she cannot drive through Birmingham because she knows exactly where everything is, except that it is not & new bits appear every time, so she tries to go down roads that are not there & gets stuck because she knows so well that that road should come out here, when really now it comes out there, but it is too much in her head to change it.
the good bit about supermarkets getting really enourmous is that the one mum goes to sometimes has a changing room for clothes, so i can sit in there where it is quiet if it is being too busy. but i do not know why anyone needs 38 types of mustard, without counting different sizes & things that are like mustard but aren't.
Interesting about the eye-tracking. I'm guesiing it was part of a research study? as with any research & most tests, then it's not 100% accurate, and some level of false positives are going to turn up. Considering that you were a very good early reader - if you were mostly self-taught, i wonder if this means you have a different eye-movement pattern to someone who was taught to read in the usual way? just a guess.
;o)
Thank you all - I think from reading the last lot of posts that nephew has (hopefully) HFA with sensory hypersensitivity.
But I'm probably wrong.
You guys are fabulous - thanks for sharing all this precious personal stuff with us.
Throughout my school life I read using a ruler however, to block the line beneath the one I was reading, as they all would merge into one otherwise so maybe that is an oblique form of reading problem.
I also have a small , well compensated ,vertical fixation disparity. I had a pair of specs with a bit of vertical prism which I used when I was studing...but never use now.
stock photo, andhow they use it.
another stock photo, andhow it's used
stock and p[uzzle pieces.
Red hair is more common than multiple sclerosis, cystic fibrosis, and childhood cancer. Combined. In fact, it's even more common than ASD. I's a major cause of bullying, and many children with red hair grow up to be adults with red hair. Clearly, we need to spend lots of money on avoiding this tragedy!
(oh, and I'm, ummm... sort-of... Welsh Gold. Definitely not an actual 'Ginger Nut' at all).
I have to say that I'm uncomfortably aware that there may well be someone lurking on this thread who has a young child who is severly Autistic who has huge issues with what I (and others) have said about a cure or an invitro test.
I fully recognise that for every, at least relatively, happy ending there are many who are nothing like as fortunate, and face a difficult future. For every Stephen Wiltshire, Temple Grandin and yes for every Shel there are a dozen or more who have a bleak existance.
I still firmly believe, though, that the answer lies, not in eliminating the condition, but learning how to properly help and support those who have it, and their families, and making that support readily available to those who need it. At the same time there needs to be a huge increase in public education about these conditions.
My issue is with the vast sums of money that are being spent, particularly in the US in the search for a "Cure" that may well never come, whilst thousands are deprived of proper support, healthcare, meaningful employement etc.
Sorry I felt that just needed saying - its perhaps a bit of a rant.
Lunacy - I'm truly glad this has helped.
i know that it is deeply offensive to DG and to mrs FR for me to say that i would prefer it if boy1 did not have dyspraxia and Aspergers. that as a mother i would prefer not to worry about what is happening at school (nothing as far as i know actually) and how he wil get on as an adult, how he will cope with college, and work, and moving away from home.
will he understand enough about the complexities of relationships to have one? Hard enough for any young person.
I am terrified when i hear about young men who have misenterpreted sexual situations, or become involved with younger girls - there were a couple of cases last year. I can't garantee that my son would not believe it if all his mates told him the "no really means yes".
So, if there was a way i could make it go away
i would have to think very hard about it
i shouldn't have shared all that really
ASD's are different and I don't necesarily see it as a negative thing but it certainly can be a negative thing if its not acknowledged or understood. I think Little Mint is fabulous, clever and funny. Sadly that's not how everyone sees him and unless they can be bothered to try and understand him, they never will. I have one or two friends who just accept him for who he is and they think he's great and have a fabulous relationship with him and can have intelligent conversations with him. However, if it goes the wrong way, they can also be on the receiving end of his vitriol - not a place I would wish even my worst enemy to be - he says some remarkably cutting and unforgettable things to people and many adults have fallen out with me for what he has said ... since he was a 2 year old believe it or not.
I don't think you'd be a normal mother if you didn't worry. All you can do is be very matter of fact and drill it into your son that no does mean no, or even teach him to agree a safe word other than no which will mean an emphatic 'no'. I don't know how I will broach that subject with Little Mint but it's certainly a conversation that has to be had. Little Mint is only 10 at the moment. He's always said he will live with me when he grows up. When he goes to university, he thinks I am going to stay in a nearby hotel and he certainly doesn't like girls (yet)!!!
I'm not in the least bit offended by what you say. Its a mothers love honestly expressed, and a view worthy of my respect.
Indeed in many ways its a view that I relate to. I know that Mrs FR was and remains a very vulnerable individual (particulary as you say in the field of relationships and sex) in a society that she sometimes struggles to come to terms with, and frankly struggles to understand her.
However the abuse and illtreatment she has suffered was nothing to do with her condition, and everything to do with how society interprates her behaviour, and my scorn, such as it is, is reserved for those who in their arrogance believe that the answer to this is to ensure that people like her are effectively eliminated. It never has been and never will be directed at those who desperately wish, as you do, that there was something that could make things better for their child.
What particularly distresses me is the way that some groups (and I specifically exclude the NAS from these remarks) manipulate stereotypes and play on peoples fear in order to fund quite fruitless attempts to find a "magic bullet" to cure Autism. Its far too complex a condition for there to be such a straightfoward answer. The best that can ever be achieved may, and I say may, be a very crude invitro test which will effectively result in abortion of any doubtful unborn child. Retrospectively that would leave me without a wife and three children, not to mention a whole bunch of students with no tutor.
I repeat - I understand, and empathise with what you say - there have been many times when I have sincerely wanted her to not be Autistic, but I've always known that its never been because she's a bad person - just a deeply misunderstood and abused one.
Which kind of brings the thread back full circle don't you think ??
:-)
and i am aware that we are very lucky, boy1 does have a small amount of support at school, the kids he went to primary school all know about his condition, he has always been like it, and for the most part they accept him as he is. i think they think he is a bit eccentric. i know they tease him sometimes, but it has never deteriorated into anything more, and i know that he teases others since his lack of automatic empathy does not allow him to see what it may be like to be in their shoes - but he is learning.
His childhood is totally different from mrs FR's and thank goodness for that.
when he was a toddler i read articles in the dyspraxia society newsletter and just cried and cried. it was full of stories about kids being bullied at school such that they stopped going.
i stopped reading them
It hasn't happened, and it may not.
I avoid the forums on the official web sites for ASD because, i don't feel that i need help (and to be honest i don't want to hear the awful stories other people have - self protection)
however, it has been great just to get a few things straight in my mind. Ask a few questions of adults who know what they are talking about.
so thanks
:-)
Thank you all for such a frank, fascinating and honest discussion. You and your families are all remarkable people who have taught me some new and interesting things and (I hope) made me more understaning of these conditions.
When I first posted this thread it was because I thought that it was a slightly amusing news item but one which clearly if you read between the lines had a serious issue at heart, hence the question mark in the thread title.
I am a judgemental person by nature, partly because of the "knocks" that I have received in life (nothing very serious BTW)
This thread has made me promise to not take everything at first view.
Thank you to everyone who has made such informed contributions.