Marathon training with Mike Gratton

[Deleted User]

Hi Mike,

I am currently doing the 3:45 schedule even though this is my first marathon. I chose this one as my half marathon pb is 1:47. I would like to get sub 4 hours but this plan seemed closer to my times and needs.

However, at my club we do our speedwork on Tuesday night which fits in fine with the program and tempo on Thursday nights, also fine. My problem is that I can only do my Wednesday run at lunchtime which is less then 24 hours since my Speed session. So my Wednesday runs have not felt easy even though they should. I am running them at the suggested pace. Is there any way the program can be adjusted for this? The Wednesdays are starting to feel like the hardest run of the week!

[Deleted User]

Hi Mike,

I did a 10k in 37.57 last year, not a fast course, and felt as though I could have gone faster, at 5km I was on 18mins 30.
I have been buiding mileage since Start of December, working upto 40 miles a week, and long run of 15miles. On this I decided to run the Bath Half Marathon, and then the edinburgh Marathon. I have looked at your sub 3 hr plan, and think I could do this, I have done a few 15ks not as far I know, but my times are could not be established as they are all off road muddy hilly/sand dunes etc, but 1hr 32 secs was my fastest on 30 miles a week. also my long runs I feel are good and I really enjoy them, at a good pace, I did a training run half on beach sand soft, and some hills and the other on road with a3 mile hill, finnishing 12 miles in 1hour 15 mins.


My question is the goal for the end of month 2 is to complete a run of 2hours 20 mins, what is the suggested pace/distance?

[Deleted User]

HI again, just read right throught the posts, and ITFAC seems to be doing somewhat more experiance than me, similar plans.

If I keep up my 10k inervals at the moment 4x 1 miles, 3-3.30 mins recovery. pace I have been doing recently 5.40 mins pace, is this too much speed as it is my 1st week of the plan of 16 weeks, I am doing approx 40-45 miles at most presently. Does sub 3hr seem appropiate?

Mike Gratton 2

DM, I think it is sensible to start out with shuttle runs on the track - say 8 x 80m concentrating on running form with a slow walk back recovery. This gives a controlled environment to rehab. As form improves this can be lengthend out to 200m sprints, 400's, 800's all keeping at a good but controlled pace. Do this every other day building up over 4 or 5 weeks until up to 3000m on the track and if now there is no pain from the original injury then progress onto the road and towards every day running very gradually.

Mike Gratton 2

Winnie30, The Wed run should be at medium effort and I think you will eventually get used to it. It may be worth slowing down the club speed session a little so you are not too tired going into it then re-build the Tue session gradually once you feel that you have adapted to the demands of the Wed run.

Mike Gratton 2

Husky, 3hrs is possible and I think you should concentrate on the long runs - as many over 2hrs as possible, and probably looking to go 20 miles as regularly as poss. You can be as much as 90sec slower than marathon pace at the moment. However, I would keep the 10km pace running in at least once a week so that you maintain the ability to run sub-6 min miles, but try to avoid too much other speed work until March or you may find that you start to come to a fitness/speed peak before you have got the most out of the endurance development.

[Deleted User]

Thanks MIke, excellent feedback, what I wanted to hear, I thought I was trying to over achieve.

The 2hours 20 runs would that be for 20 mils, so a split time pace of 7 mins, Would this not be too fast for endurance running, or have I got the wrong end of the stick so to speak.

I did my 15.5 mile run yesterday, on sand etc, beach dunes, muddy track undulating for the first 7 miles, approx 8.30pace, then on road at approx 7.45-8,15 pace. on the last 7 or so miles evening out average 8.00 mins. does this sound right. I like to do the off road, for strength and for making the run less boring.

Also Should I start to increase this mileage, or do more runs, of 15.
If I were to do the over 20 mile runs, should I go slower, than my 15 pace? and less strength maybe, I actually find it harder running on the road as I have a tendancy especially as I do shorter races to speed up.

thanks Husky.

Mike Gratton 2

Husky, You dodn't need to be too precise with the long runs initially, just aim at time on feet and run the 20 milers conservatively for now - doesn't matter how long it takes. I think you need to be thinking of getting to regular 20's even if it's slower than your current 15's.

Over time you will find you can run closer to the 6.52's you'll need to do to run 3hrs, although you'll never need to actually run 20 miles at marathon speed in training....that's far too difficult a target in training. Most of the fitness to run quicker will come from mid-March when you start to do more speed work quicker than marathon pace.

Typically, as you get fitter you'll find that you can start your long runs at a steady pace then gradually speed up so that you do the last 5 miles at marathon pace.

[Deleted User]

Thanks Mike! I had noticed that last week, we did a hill session on the Tuesday instead of track and I found the Wednesday run quite good. It only seems to be after track that it has been hard. I will try to slow down for a bit. It was revealing this week when I worked out from our 1km efforts on the track that I was running it at 6.30 sort of pace. The track is the only place I can do that sort of speed so I must have been overdoing it. Here's hoping the next few Wednesdays feel easier.

[Deleted User]

Thanks Mike, I shall aim for a 20 miler next week!

I found I needed to eat after 9 miles, which is the original long run I used to do for my 10k's!

Is this usual, I never before had to have water or electolites during any of my runs, unless it was soaring heat in the middle of summer of course, even then I only ever had water, and did the replacement after.

Is this usual, as when I do my marathon will I need to re-fuel every 9 miles or more often/less, what is the norm, as when you see the elite's they seem to only re-fuel twice? so I have never taken a big interest in this, I have always watched the marathon in awe, I will have to watch them all more closely.

Thanks and this is a great thread, I couldnt have asked for more, in advice!

Husky

[Deleted User]

Hi Mike

I'm following the Runner's World Ultimate Marathon Schedule: Sub-3:15 and the long runs are specified to be run around 8:20 pace. The thing is, I just need to hear whether this is correct from somebody who obviously has the experience such as yourself.

In my mind, I cannot let go of the notion that surely to run at 3hr15 pace, you should be runing your long runs around 3hr15 pace, otherwise, it will be too much of a shock to the body on race day to run so much faster. I understand that running loads of training miles at marathon pace will increase the risk of injury, but, I still cannot understand how the body will suddenly be able to run at 3hr15 pace on the day when you haven't run even half the distance at this pace in training.

Until somebody who's been there done it tells me to trust the theory, something in my mind is just stopping me from making such a "leap of faith".

I hope you are able to put my mind at easy as to the pace I should be running my long runs at. I can then just get on with it and not have to worry or be tempted to speed up when I start panicking that I'm training well below 3hr15 race pace.

Many thanks in advance

Matt

[Deleted User]

Hi Mike,

Sorry to butt in but I would like your advice, please.

I am planning to do the Atlanta Marathon in November. I started running again in September after a 13 months lay off.

What do you think I should do:

4 days running, 2 days weight training, 1 day rest or
5 days running, 1 day weight training and 1 day rest.

Thank you very much.

Some great coaching going on here!

TR

MBJ,

I'm new to marathoning and am following MG's plan (55-75 mile version). I've gone form being a 3 dyas/week runner to 6/7 days/week in a few months. I have no real idea of MP yet, maybe sub 3, maybe sub 3.15.
But, one thing I have picked up is that you cannot routinely bang out long runs at marathon pace - you probably never will through the whole of your training.

However, I understand what you mean - I come from a background where I ran hard 3 times/week. I reckon that I am doing 18 mile long runs in 2h 10-15, and 20's in 2h 30 - and they are probably still too fast -but I find it difficult to run too slow, and am still able to run on a Monday after this.

I have simply been churning out easy/steady miles. With the two main sessions being the 2-2.5 hr long run and a midweek run of 90 min.
You will get some good advice from reading the Hard Training Thread that MG contributes to too.

I'm sure MG will ease your worries for you.

[Deleted User]

Looks like a great thread...will be watching closely. (Mike you 'encouraged' our reluctant 3 1/2 yr old over the line at Poppy Hill last year...;-) thanks!)


http://www.justgiving.com/andrewFLM2007

[Deleted User]

MB J Stil TR, I am of the same thinking, too, but you would just injure yourself, When I do my 10k Training, I really hammer myself, doing lots of intervals and running faster than race pace, then I would test myself alot doing an actaul 10k route, on a route harder than a race would be.

So I understand were you are coming from, but with such high mileage, your body would break down, I would get a good marathon book, maybe Paul tergat Running to the limit, or somthing like that, just to read and actually understand how gruelling a marathon is!

I do alot of research and have done for many years, but when it comes to training I really need guidance, as I would just hammer myself and end up injured. Still TR, if your aiming for a sub 3, and your doing those runs in that time, you should be able to do it, when is the actaull race and were?

I am doing the Edinburgh! and the Bat Half, on March 25th

[Deleted User]

Mike,

I'm following the 3:30 schedule but with the paces reduced to 3:45. SO far I'm hitting all the targets with some time to spare so hopefully I may be closer to 3:30 than 3:45 on the day.
My question is this... I run my 'easy' Saturday 5 milers straight out of bed, no fluid and no breakfast, I hope this will be good training for running those last few miles on the day when your body is 'empty'. With the Sunday long runs now pushing up to 18-20 miles, am I likely to be taking too much out of my body on the Saturday by running with no fuel 'on board' leaving myself with reduced energy level for the big one on Sunday??
regards, Kev

ceal

Mike
I had a session with Jenny today, your protegee I believe, she coaches the Esporta Gym running club. It was good we did 3 x 1 mile intervals around the park. I sandwiched it into the middle of a 9.5 mile run!! I ran at 5k pace.

TR

Husky,

I'm doing the FLM (first marathon). I'm usually a 3/weekrunner who does the odd 5k/10k/5mile race - best times 10k=38 min, 5M = 30 min.

I did a 1/2 mar (my longest ever run - training or race) in 1h 26m in Nov. then increased the running from 4 to 5 to 6 to 7 days, and now have no idea of an intended marathon pace - because obviously I'm not now the runner I used to be, a few months ago.

I am a bit of a fitness nazi really, bike, workout, swim etc usually and so weigh 12 stone - which is a bit heavy for marathoning, but I'm giving this marathon one big push.

I've built up steadily, and cos I'm following MG's plan all the miles have been easy/steady which suits me as I've no running technology and could not tell you what % of HR any of my running has been at - and I don't really care either - I just run!!

My easy/steady long runs do really feel easy/steady - I'm just not yet sure how fast I could race the Marathon. I'm just accumulating "time on feet".

Best of luck to you in your Marathon.

[Deleted User]

still TR, great, training, sounds like your about the same as me, I did a 10k 37.57 mins but I could have gone faster, I wnet through 5k in 18 mins so a tad fast, when I looked at the stop watch, so I slowed considerably and lost my pace, and struggled to get back on pace.

Not done a half yet, thats to come this year, the thing is I do my long runs, and feel great wanting to go faster, especially towards the end, and really hammer it, on the odd occasion I have blown out, looking back at the garmin I was doing 6.30 no wonder I blew out, sometimes I struggle to keep an average of 8 mins, and go up and down with my pace, which is really mind boggling at the time, ranging between 7-9 mins, over a couple of miles.

good luck in your training and marathon
H

Mike Gratton 2

MBJ, You need to haver a balance of training - long and slow, marathon pace preparation and fast than marathon pace. You are training different things:
Long slow runs initially should be 60sec to 90sec slower than marathon pace (for a faster runner - 3.30 or faster - but for runners slower than that you will probably find you will run slightly closer to marathon pace). The aim aim in the long runs initially is to develop fat burning as an energy source and this only occurs at moderate pace - the quicker you go the more you use glycogen (sugar) and you will not fully develop the fat burning ability that is essential towards the end of a marathon.

The long slow run also stimulates the development of the capilary network enabling you to deliver more fuel and oxygen to the working muscles.

As training progresses you may do one or two runs at marathon pace, usually starting steady and finishing at marathon pace.

Tempo runs, or marathon pace runs, over about 40/60 minutes develop the nuero-muscular and speed endurance required. If try to run MP for much more than this you run the risk of producing too much stress and may get injured. Some elites - Paul Tergat - will do runs as far as 25km at MP in the last 8 weeks of the training plan....but that is really tough.

Then there are sessions at speeds from HM to 3km, which develop the function of the muscle and make you morte effiecent.

The balance of training goes from long slow to 10km pace or faster in gradual stages in the last 8 weeks, and it is this bit that gives you the ability to achieve race pace - but it doesn't happen unless you have a good endurance bedrock to build on.

My best marathon pace was 4.57 per mile in LM 83. But in the middle of winter we would do long runs in woodland averaging 6.30's. By Jan I would have switched to the road and would be doing 6min miles. By March I might average 5.30 in a 20 mile run, but only the last third would be at race pace.

Mike Gratton 2

Spud, You know me well enough to guess I would suggest you should do more running and less gym if you're going to do a good marathon. But I also suggest that you build up gradually given the long break.

Mike Gratton 2

AJ, Are sure your 3 1/2 yr old wasn't thinking who's that grey bearded old fella shouting at me:-)

Mike Gratton 2

Kev, i used to go straight out of bed and run my Sunday 20 milers. There is evidence to support your thoughts that your body will benefit from fasting runs as you start out with reduced glycogen stores and are then into using your fat reserves. But you must refuel well after the run otherwise you will become progressively depleted in glycogen and your ability to run and, more important, recover will be impared.

Mike Gratton 2

Hi Ceal, You're in good hands with Jenny. She probably gave you some background, but as she ran exactly 3hrs in her first marathon off little proper marathon training and being knocked flat at a drinks station in FLM I think she has great untapped potential.

Mike Gratton 2

Sorry about all the typo's in the above replies - Sunday afternoonitis I guess.

madrocket

hello Mike,
I'm actually doing the Paris marathon on April 14th, so I'm a week ahead of the flm schedule.. I'm following the 3h15 schedule and have did my first 18 miler yesterday, in just under 2.30 . The last couple of miles were quite slow and painful, i was often wanting to stop and walk to the end. Is this normal?

[Deleted User]

Hi Mike, I did a 22mile run today, at 8 min pace, for the 20 miles, and did 7 min pace for the last two as I felt okay, not great obviously but okay to up it. I am absolutly amazed I have never run this far ever, it took my just under 3 hours though, does this sound right?

I know it should be slower but should it be this much slower, I did feel okay, not sure if I could have gone faster though!

Mike Gratton 2

Bananaboy, It is possible you started too fast and 'Hit the Wall', i.e. ran out of glycogen. You have a store of about 1600cals of energy stored as glycogen - at a rate of around 90-100 cals per mile (depends on body weight) if you go to quickly and energy comes mostly from glycogen you will run out at around 16 - 18 miles. Try doing the first 2 or 3 miles slowly and building up the pace through the run to get the feeling of finishing quicker. The other thing you may want to consider is taking energy gels on the run to help keep glycogen levels up. Use a gel every 30 mins or so to keep topped up - but you still need to start slowly as they are not going to offset a very rapid use of glycogen.

Mike Gratton 2

Husky, It sounds like you are running on 'feel' and getting it about right.

[Deleted User]

thank you very much Mike. i will do that.