Marathon training with Mike Gratton

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Comments

  • Thanks Mike, I will up a mile every run and see how I get on.
  • Kevin H, Difficult one. Running training to be 100% effective really needs to be specific. However, if injury makes it difficult to do as much running as you'd like then cross training is an essential compromise. The cross trainer is fine for building fitness, the down side is you do need to learn to take the impact of running and the biomechanics are different. I'd say, through, that if you are doing plenty of other runs then you need not worry too much. Another alternative is cycling out of the saddle as the leg action is closer to running - but check with your physio to make sure it is OK on your knee.
  • Thanks a lot...I'd rather be running, believe me!
  • cealceal ✭✭✭
    Mike,
    I ran a half mara on Sunday, Wokingham. time was 1:44.57. which was 3.40min PB. It is unlikely that I will run Fleet half as fast, as it is hillier. I think that one is meant to be able to estimate one's mara time from a half race. Is that the case? The prediction tables give me a time too fast, in my opinion. It gives the pace as 8.23, far too scarey by half. What do you think? Also, can one get faster in the last month or just stronger?
  • Ceal, I think the prediction tables are OK to give you a guide, but they are an average and don't take account of lots of variables. Endurance base is a key one. It is possible for someone who has trained on lowish mileage and higher intensity, i.e. for 10ks, to run a fairly fast half. But it is likely they will slow a good deal in the second half and have a big time differential. Someone with a very good endurance base may not run a half quite as fast, but may be able to hold a better differential thus running the full marathon distance quicker.

    The other perameter not factored in is confidence and how well you know yourself - and I would always say go with what you feel is realistic for you.

    To answer the second part of the question - getting stronger will make you faster. What you need is repeatable speed, so it is not short sprinting that is needed to get fast for longer distance racing but intervals that last between 1 and 2 mins at mile to 3km speed.
  • cealceal ✭✭✭
    Thanks Mike.
    yes I have been doing fast intervals as you suggest. They hurt:-(( But are invaluable, I know. Also, I do mile reps and the odd 5k race. Top mileage so far 60 miles the week preceding the half, not the week of.

    The recovery from the half is still taking place although I was able to run 5 miles later the same day, for endurance purposes then a recovery run yesterday and a rest day today.
  • K9K9 ✭✭✭
    Hello Mike,

    I have a silly question...

    I'm followed the sub 3:30 schedule last year which seemed to suit me quite well. This year I'm following the sub 3:15, and have noticed a few changes....in particular a set of hill reps 3 weeks running in February. (I think last year there were 2 lots but several weeks apart). As I struggled through this session early this morning I did wonder how exactly they would benefit me given that FLM is almost completely flat....I can see why they might be of benefit to my running and fitness in the longer term, but why the emphasis on hills in a schedule geared up to FLM?!
  • K9, Running hills in training isn't, in this case, directly related to the terrain of the race route - which in London, as you say, is flat.

    This has to do with building strength and developing cardio vascular fitness and lactate tolerence. The increased effort will require more oxygen and encourages the shunt of oxygen across the lung membrane into the blood. You will also stimulate the production of lactic acid, which, in a complicated chemical process, is part of the energy supplying cycle that happens within the muscles and is therefore important to train.

    The previous RW schedules had the hill sessions much closer to the race - I think there was one in the last couple of weeks. I changed this as I feel that these sessions are part of the building blocks to fitness that are best placed in the earlier stages of fitness development, and after some base work has been put, in that will then enable you to get more out of your training in the final phase when speed work is increasingly faster to bring you to a peak for the big day.

    In the days when I was winning London hill work was ever present and we had a club hill session every Monday (after Sundays long run) right through the winter.

    The hill sessions, as you noted, are pretty tough, and I think need to be done at a time when they are not going to inhibit faster training because you are tired from them as well as the possibility of there being residual tiredness and micro-trauma in the legs if you don't recover from them properly if done in the last few weeks.
  • K9K9 ✭✭✭
    Thankyou Mike for your detailed response! Although they feel tough i strangely enjoy these sessions, but most definitely could not do them on a Monday after my long run! Anyway, good to know how they fit into the training scheme.
  • Hi Mike

    Last year I did FLM in 3:04 and am aiming for sub-3 this year. Training is going well - much better than last year so far (touch wood) except for one thing. I was supposed to give up smoking on 1st Jan and after several false starts find myself still smoking. I know this is utter madness. Not sure what advice I want really. Perhaps just for you to tell me what a complete buffoon I am.
  • Arkinshaw, You're a buffoon....there, I've done now give up.

    Strangely, although I'm dead anti-smoking, there have been some elite marathon runners who have been smokers - two Olympians and one a champion that I have witnessed....not going to name names.

    But it clearly doesn't help the ability to move oxygen around the body and long term it just isn't good for you.
  • Mike - running in my first marathon this year and desperate to get under 4 hours (even if it is by 1 second!); don't have a background in running having only started about a year ago.

    I'm terrified that running the LSR's at the indicated pace will leave me unable to hit the right pace for long enough on the day.

    I'm currently trying to do them as close as possible to my marathon pace. Is this a REALLY bad idea that's going to backfire?!?!?

    Thanks
  • Noodle, It depends a bit on if your 4hr target is realistic or not. If you can comfortably run at this pace on your long runs then maybe 4hrs is a little soft as a target, if you're feeling like you are pushing the pace on the long runs, then maybe it is realistic, but you are probably training too fast.

    Don't mix up the physiology of developing the required energy systems - becoming an efficient fat burner - with the demands of running the required pace.

    At this stage the long runs are sub-max or you do not train your fat burning energy system, you simply continue to use glycogen until it is used up and have to stop and walk. Running at around 70% effort is what you should be aiming at - or you need to be able to hold a conversation in sentences rather than short gasps.

    Closer to the marathon you will change the emphasis of the long runs to race pace practice. But, as I have mentioned in earlier postings, you get the ability to run at marathon pace by doing some of your shorter runs at MP and some faster than MP - this gives you a balanced programme of LSD, MP and fast running.

    Try to hold back on the long runs - it doesn't seem like the obvious thing to do, but it works.
  • Hi Mike,
    I tried to post a message via another thread where you were following "Hillys" marathon training.
    I ma running London 2007 and have a current 1/2 marathon(WATFORD) of 1:35 and am 44yrs old with a pb of 2:56 but in 1987!
    I have just set up a newly affiliated running club"David Lloyd Pacers" and am a full time personal trainer running upto 75miles a week with groups or privately but making sure I do at least 3 "quality" sessions myself a week as my clients run btw 7:30 to 10min per mile pace.
    Do you think I am capable of a 3:15 marathon even though I do slow runs with clients.
    A typical quality session a week would be 8x4mins hard 1min jog rec.OR Tempo runs of 6-10miles.OR 10x30sec fast: 30secs slow.
    OR 10x90secs hills. OR pyramids or 2x30secs:2x1min:2x2min:2x3min and back down again with same rec time.

    I would do at least 2 of these sessons on my own a week.
    My longest run at present is 15milies off road.
  • Hi Mike. FLM will be my 3rd marathon and this year I would like to break 3:30. I ran 3:42 2 years ago. My last half marathon in Oct was 1:38 so I feel I can do it. However my boyfriend is now training for the marathon as well and I have been doing long runs with him to give him support (it is his first). This mean running slower (c30-60s per min) than I would like but I have made sure I do an extra 3-5 miles at half marathon pace at the end. I have felt fine doing this and enjoy the push at the end. Will the continued slow long runs hamper my chances of a 3:30 on the day?
  • Hi Mike, as you know from my previous messages on this thread, I am aiming for a
    sub 3 hr marathon.

    How far should my tempo runs be? and at what pace? when should I introduce them?

    I am doing the edinburgh marathon end of May.

    on the end of the 5th week, of training plan,
  • Mike - thanks for the response...I'll slow my long runs down and keep my fingers crossed!

    Cheers - Noodle
  • Hi Mike,
    My husband and I am following the RW sub 3.45 plan, and I am a little confused re Pace vs HR. We have been doing our long runs at a 9 min/mile which is 70% WHR for me and 68% for Jon, but faster than suggested by the programme. Should we slow our pace down for the long runs as per the training programme or keep to ~70% WHR for them?
    Thanks
    Vicky
  • cealceal ✭✭✭
    Mike
    when is the last weekend that you would recommend running a 10k prior to London?
  • cealceal ✭✭✭
    Mike by running a 10k I obviously meant racing a 10k!!
  • Trainer,
    It's an interesting problem. I had a similar problem when teaching PE back in the 80's. I think you need to count the miles done with the running group as recovery runs and additional to a 3hr programme otherwise you simiply are not doing enough. I suggest you lengthen the long run to 18 to 20 miles and bulk up the speed sessions so that you are doing a long rep session - 5 x 1 mile, 3 x 3km, etc. and a short interval session with 15 x 400, 20 x 300, 25 x 200m, all with short recovery of between 30 and 60sec. This will compensate for the lack of prdicatable quality else where.
  • Debbie, I don't think the slow runs are a problem at the moment if you are adding those extra faster miles. You may need to be a bit selfish in the last 4 or 5 weeks through when you really should be building the pace of the long runs to condition yourself to the higher intensity you'll need to run 3.30.
  • Thank you Mike for your advice. Will try these sessions and although I do my own speed sessions alone I try and push myself even though its better to train with people faster than myself!
    Have a half marathon in 2 weeks and planning a 17mile run on wednesday( as this is the day the david lloyd pacers want the long run to be as mainly mums doing the marathon!)Did back to back session on sat and sun just gone of 12miles tempo followed by 14mile on sunday picking up pace every 20mins until i ran last 20mins hard. Felt good!
    I also do 3 core/strength sessions in the gym a week.
  • Husky, At the moment tempo runs can just be a faster than usualy run - fairly non-specific. In March start to make them about 40 mins at predicted marathon pace, then in April make them 30 - 40 mins in duration but move on to half marathon pace. At this time start to introduce marathon pace into the end of your long runs, build up from a steady start and finish at marathon pace.
  • Vicky, Go on HR as it is a more accurate gauge of fitness - pace is an arbitary guess of what you should be doing for a predicted marathon time - but, guessing your marathon time is a non-scientific activity in the end. But there's not tricking your heart, which knows exactly how hard you a re trying.
  • If you are very fit then a week before I think gives some benefits in sharpening up without much risk of soreness lingering into the marathon. If training hasn't go 100% it may be a risk as recovery rate is to a large extent determined by fitness.
  • Hi Mike,

    I'm following the RW sub-4 training on my GARMIN.

    This obviously is tailored for entry in the FLM - I'm entered for the White Peak Marathon on 19th May. So I need to extend the training by 3 weeks. Do you have any "simple" suggestions?

    Thanks

    Proculus
  • Thanks Mike. We'll carry on at 70% WHR then!
  • Hi Mike

    New to this thread so hello everyone.

    Iwas following a 3.15 schedule and ran a 16 miler, 18 miler and 20 miler in Jan/early Feb - the 20 miler being on the 3rd Febuary. Up to then doing around 45 miles per week. Since then missed two long runs as we were skiing. Whilst that was very physical it wasnt running. I am a bit worried that I will have gone backwards and those three runs wont count for much as had a 10 day break.
    My question's are is that break likely to have had any serious effect on my training (not yet run another long one) and can I go straight back to 45-50 miles this week?

    Thanks for your help.
  • Mike,

    I am running the FLM and have been training well since Christmas up until about 2 weeks ago when I have developed lower Back pain. I don't know what to do - I tried to ignore it but it just has got steadly worse - so this week I'm doing no running at all. I did have a sports massage 1 week ago which did not relieve the back pain but my legs did feel good after. I have been doing lots of core exercises lately and I know that probably after 1 - 2 weeks rest the pain will just start again. Should I see a physio or just rest up and do a few stretches from this site I found http://www.runnersweb.com/running/news/rw_news_20051025_PRP_Pronation.html

    Maybe I just will have to give up this running and forget about FLM.
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