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Great Morning Magic Mile Gul. I was still asleep when you did that, got back and posted about it! Our Club is doing a Magic mile race this Friday, which I might give a go?
KR - have a blast on Friday.DM - there are lots of black toenail afficionados on the thread who will be pleased to discuss in detail and post lots of lovely pics. I only have one black toe-nail at the moment. Anyway, pleased to hear you had a good speed session yesterday.I did 2 very slow miles this morning. Well, this is meant to be a cut-back week for me (again!). I've decided to leave the Magic Mile #2 until next week and save my legs for parkrun on Saturday when the King's Lynn event celebrates its first birthday.
Thanks Mennania, but I think this w/end would a little close. I may take a race rest for a few weeks. Just a shame as I could have challenged 80 mins at the GNR..
I'll do the parkrun too Gul- I'm becoming a big fan.
Nice 10k there speedy,now you are sub 40 and over the mental barrier there should be a few more to come.
Gul, was looking at that King's Lynn mile and wondering who would run it
I am doing my magic mile tonight in Bushy Park. Slightly odd as the run is on the roads so they need to wait until the park gates are closed to traffic so it is run in but car outside and I am a bit nervous about parking and access etc.
Sort of talking myself into a 2:45 attempt in 2014 or 2015 so I can run VLM 2016 from the champs start when I am 50. It will be hard but is possible: I am ranked 53rd for V45 and need to improve to 26th. Any hints from the old fast campaigners much appreciated.
SlokeyJoe wrote (see)
Wow, that's a great target PMJ! I'm sure that you are mental enough to pull it off too I like the long term planning - how are you going to approach it?
I look at it like this:
Take any race predictor tool such ashttp://www.runningforfitness.org/calc/racepaces/rpand type in a few numbers so I want to do a 2:45 marathon aged 48 which is a 83% age graded result. On po10 my best age graded result is 82% and I have a couple over 80% this year so the age grade is not an issue: I need to improve by about 1% age graded and in 2010 my best was 74% so if I can go from 74% to 82% surely I can go to 83%.
The predictor also says that this is a 1:18:46 half (I am 52 seconds down on that) and a 59:06 10 mile (I am 20 seconds down on that) and therein is the issue: I am 20 seconds down over 10 miles but 52 over 13 so need to sort out the endurance.
So the issue is really doing the right training for a marathon and do one real justice which basically means taking 6 months out for a serious campaign and not trying to be jack of all trades and double up over country and road and a marathon as well.
Havnt been on here for a while, had a bit of a coughing virus thing after VLM that scuppered my early season Tri's and I was too busy arragning and re-arranging kids cricket games anyway. Back to health now though. PMJ awakened my interest......
PMJ - If you want to run a 2:45 in 2014, and then run strongly in 2016 (dont want to be one of those champs starts folks that gets caught be the mid 2:50s runners like me). Then in my numpty opinion (WAVAs and Po10 do not appear in my world) it would be easier to get to that level ASAP and maintain it, than it would be to achieve it in 2014. Assuming that you arnt doing an Autumn 2012 campaign then your marathon relative mileage is already falling since VLM 2012. Back to back campaigns in 2013 (VLM and Abo) would get your year round mileage up there ready for a 2:45 attempt in 2014. I would chase a sub 2:50 at VLM 2013 and then a 2:45 at Abo 2013. You are looking to gain another 5mins from this year and thats nearly a mile, so I'd get some of that mile under my belt ASAP, and keep the mileage frequency and consistency up, rather than try to get it back up in 15 months time, if you are sensible then it might be less risky injury wise too......just my numpty opinion of course.
I can't think beyond 2013 and that's a stretch....
Firstly, great respect for getting the speed, keeping the speed, and setting the bar higher. I got 2:58 aged 48, but started to break down physically and mentally. You've clearly got higher targets than me, so the underlying head issue does not apply to you. I'm now 51 and trying to come back a bit.I've seen my colleagues and rivals who are and were both faster and older, so the height of the bar is not an issue physiologically. My best marathon performances came off the back of 2 solid years of other good results. I would say that you needn't forget about the other distances. In fact I would positively recommend that you raced every single race that was on offer from 5k to 50k, cross country too. The year prior to my marathon pbs I had a year of pbs in every distance except marathon. Maybe I had unlucky days on the target race day. Of course, my strategy was never to play it safe. Shoot hard and high. If I blew up then it was spectacular. But once or twice the gamble paid off.
The obvious alternative is to kneecap the 25 people who are faster then you.
Blisters - great to hear from you again. What have you been up to, and more importantly, what have you got planned race-wise?
Good advice Blisters (what happened to the beer?).
PMJ - I'll leave the advice to those who know what they're talking about but you have shown that you have the ability, dedication and wisdom required, so give it your best shot.I thought I'd try out some 5k pacing this morning and I think the mile training has confused me no end. It took me 3 attempts to pace 400m correctly (97 = way too slow, 95 = still too slow, 91 = target pace). I'm tempted to forgot the pacing and just go for it at the parkrun.
So two extremes today:
Magic mile 5:26 which gives me 75.6% age graded and currently 6th for Team UK and Team UK is now leading (most likely due to my efforts, he says modestly). The gauntlet throwing is over, the serious action has begun.
Marathon 2:45 day dreams: so good advice from TR about building up slowly and maintaining so more ratchet to 2:45 rather than a magical reveal. I am a bit nervous about the timing for Abingdon: I seem to do 3 months hard and one taper so that means July, August and September are long months and they may be hot, you never know. Any thoughts on trying a back to back of something like Luton and VLM. Luton is a month later so has the chance of long runs in cooler weather but race end of November means December recovery gets critical as I have to be back in training in January.
B&B, I like to race but can you expand on what exactly you mean by that. I note Speedy broke her 10k PB this week on the back of a mighty mileage and no taper but I tend to cut back for race weeks so I did Wokingham this year in Feb and in Jan my weeks (and long run) were 60 (18), 60 (21), 55 (14), 58 (21), 61 (21), 53 (13) and 52 (14) so really that half marathon had a impact on about 2 weeks of the campaign.
PMJ - I meant to say, great Magic Miling. I think I'll soon be off page 1 of the results.
PMJ, Just get on with it in the summer and enjoy the sunshine. Winter training can be quite interrupted, and FFS who actually likes going out there in the freezing rain or howling wind? Trying to run a long hard session when you are kitted up to stop your nads falling off results in a slow run anyway. My preference is to train hard in summer, where all you get is sweaty and a bit dehydrated.
The question of planning to target winter marathon races is something else entirely.
It's been a while since I posted, I have seen there's been some good training and racing going on here, well done all.
My running has not been going too great- a few weeks ago I was doing a 20miler in the midday heat when I had to stop after about 13, I tried carrying on and had to stop again etc etc, (there was a pain near there bottom of my sternum)- I made it to 20 miles but the last 7 were very slow and I had to stop about once a mile- I weighed myself when I got home and had lost 4.5kg.
That probably took more out of me that I thought, because I had a LT run to do shortly afterwards that I really struggled with.
I've been following the P+D 55-70 sechdule almost to the letter, (with a few switches of the days) but I think I might have been bordering on overtraining, my last LT run was the slowest one I've done- though I think that might of been mental partly, and I don't like running at dawn after doing 60miles in the previous 5 days.
The crux of it all is that I'm now really bored of running, 70 boring miles a week for a marathon which I'm never going to be able to do in a time that I'll be pleased with.
This week I've done all the training, but rather than doing the 20%-10% business for the med long run/long runs I've just run them at what ever feels comfortable. It seems to have done some good.
I guess my questions are- if during mrathon training you do over train how do you undo it without taking time off?
As with a lot of people I only started running with the aim of running a 2.59 marathon- so am already (perhaps foolishly) looking forward to spring where I will have a 5/6 month run up at it- what's the best way to do a long marathon plan and what's a good fast spring mrathon in the southish eastish area?
Sorry that this is a bit rambly and not very up beat,
Sounds like a tough time you have been through. Hopefully you will get some good advice shortly from the experienced campaigners.
As a novice runner, I have never taken a plan as set in stone. If I was a decent runner, with a coach, I am sure the training schedule would be adjusted regularly dependent on performance, tiredness, injury etc, reducing / increasing intensity, mileage.etc. I am constantly doing this for myself (possible to the detriment of performance) in a bid to avoid overtraining & injury. I'm pretty much on the edge at the moment, running on average 60 miles pw compared to 0 miles pw 9 months ago. I have dropped one or two LT/Interval sessions recently in favour of an easy run . I'm not sure where this 'non-prescriptive' approach will get me - hopefully to the start line at least. As said, I feel I am at risk of overtraining at the moment, and am considering some cross training to reduce my mileage for a week or so, whils mainitaining aerobic fitness (rowing is my preferred cross-training torture device).
I'll look forward to the advice you get - may be something in it for me.
JD3. My personal opinion is that a marathon campaign should not be 5 to 6 months long: what you need is maybe 2 months base building and then 3 months campaign afterwards. The base phase is very much about getting your body used to the training and getting the mileage per week and the long runs up to something decent. In November and December I was doing from 40 to 55 miles each week and getting my long run up to 20 and then from Jan to March I was doing 55 to 65 with a regular long run of 21 miles.
I also think that with a reasonable athletic build that sub 3 is possible of much less than 70 a week. I did 2:57 of about 52 and this year 2:50 off about 55.
Quick OO! Both Haile and Mo have withdrawn from the GNR - you might be able to pick up a number?
PMJ - you could just stick with a spring mara nad run Autumn 1/2's, but would you get enough miles in through the rest of the year to get you where you want to be in 2014 ? I only run more than 13M ish myself when its VLM build up, and wouldnt be doing weekday 10milers.
Re training in the summer, I think I would do better at Abo after training in the warm than I do after training 6am in the cold all winter and then meeting a warm/hot day at VLM and melting. I'd be much better prepared.Luton is an option for you but in the last few years I'm aware of it being weather affected.
JD3 - if you think you need a break then take one, 2 or 3 zero's wont hurt, dont be a slave to the plan. You'll lose nothing. I've burned too many matches in VLM campaigns training too hard and running long runs too fast, its all about consistency and being at your peak on race day. For me nowadays, marathon training is about ticking off LSRs, MLRs etc saving as much energy as possible, just running hard on a few select occasions in training.
AR - if you think you have been over-training then dont cross train, either rest or do some very short runs to keep the legs ticking over. I'd say rest, smell the roses, have a few beers and relax for a few days.
If folks really do over-train and over-reach then you can dig yourself into a hole that you cant get out of in tie, so err on the side of caution, it really wont ruin your campiagn, but it might if you dont.
I am also a novice and will defer to the experienced threadsters, other than to say we can all have a bad day. I would also do my favourite run (that is not so prescribed) for pleasure to shake the shackles. Good luck and keep the faith!
Am going to but an exercise bike as a x trainer to help over the next 6 weeks - any suggestions. I am initialy drawn to a star trac type machine.
Mennania, one thing is to get a bike with cleats and a set of cleated shoes: you will get much more out of any kit that way.
TR, agree that marathon training is all about the long ones, and if you need to cut back then keep the log ones and ease back on tempo, lactate etc. Weather is such an issue, you can get a hot VLM after a freezoing run up and also a freezing Luton after an Indian summer. I don't find the cold, dark mornings an issue. Once you are out it encourages you to get roudn and back in and I am good about following a pattern so get up, get into the office, get running and still asleep internally.
You're right about the routine PMJ, I find it harder to run 3 or 4 days per week than I do to run 6 or 7 days. I was intrigued to hear that you popped those sub 3s off 52/55 mpw. I think I was more like ****** checks diary******. Well I thought I was doing 50 to 60 mpw. It transpires that I wasn't, and it was more like 50 average. So there's a bonus.
PMJ - I agree with TR - better to try for continual improvement from now, rather than a sh*t or bust campaign. I went from 2:5x pea-shelling to 2:46 over a couple of years of consistent, diligent application. A main component was the weekly pack run with my then club, 10-12 miles of nearly race pace (for me) with, in the main, faster runners. Ironically my other distances indicated much better than 2:46, but had a spectacular failure at mara PB, and never was near again. Also I was in my mid - late 30's then, with much fresher running legs than now. This is where you can profit, Philip, as you have had a fair time away from competitive running, so are still relatively un-beaten up. (There's loads in Noakes on this). Good points by Blisters, also - racing is, generally, good. This leads to the other point (mentioned by Speedy as well) - no need to taper for the other distances if your main goal is the mara. This prompted me to get the diaries out, and, for example, prior to my 10K PB I did 16 miles the day before (6 morn, 10 lunch), and before 1/2 M Pb did 20 on the thu, rest fri, 5 sat, race sun. Like I said I had a "young" running age then, and a work ethic. You have these, Philip, but in addition you have the talent and certainly the desire, so I would say you've a good chance. Which leads to JD3 - "I don't like running at dawn after doing 60miles in the previous 5 days" - an important issue here. Firstly, that's a valid observation, and illustrates that we shouldn't slavishly follow schedules, as other stuff (niggles, illness life) will always have a say. However, there are times when we need to ask ourselves (and answer honestly)Do I need to miss this session, (am I really tired/ill or am I just being lazy)? It's normal to become bored with mara training (Ron Hill said he reached the stage when all he seemed to be doing was putting on or taking off running gear), but that's part of the game; it's not meant to be easy , and that feeling when it all comes together is surely worth it? It appears you need 2 or 3 days respite, JD3, so take them - then come back refreshed - trust me - the mojo won't be far away.
In other news, I received my letter today and have consultant appointment next week. Saying that, my knee has been feeling better by itself recently, so (foolishly, I know, but desperation is a strong force), I went out for 3 miles non-stop today. 31 mins !! but no pain -.can "feel" it a bit now, but we'll see what the man says . . . .
Meant to say, PMJ, hopefully injury shouldn't blight your path, as I only really started suffering more than "normal" niggles when I got to about age 52, with 20 + running years in the legs. I think that up to that point my consistent running almost "injury proofed" the legs, but since then they are maybe saying "enough's enough"!
Birch: I can join this thread as I run sub 3:15 at Brighton, probably should have run faster, but jew to injury difficulties, did not happen.
Anyway, Matchstick Man, that is the same as initials as Meep Meep. MM.
Delighted to read of your running, Birch! Hope the appointment brings good news. Rock on.
I never become bored taking off or putting on running gear as I only put it on in the morning and take it off at night. I might pong a bit but nobody has thought fit to tell me, yet.
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