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P + D training for VLM 2013
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Blimey MXB - Don't be too hard on yourself! Make sure you arn't trying to fix a problem which is actually a strength. No-one can run their best possible marathon after just 18wks of training. The best marathons come on the back of previous marathons, it is the consistency of running miles over time which allows you to run further, faster and more efficiently. It is always hard to know which variables to change, but for all the variables you are coinsidering changing above, it is possible to come back with a counter argument for NOT making those changes: eg a) Your aerobic base will not be as developed b) You will be tired for the next training session c) Injury risk.
Wow mxb thats fantastic, definatly a natural athlete. Can I ask have you ever played sport at any level IE football for a pro club when younger or such? Agree with Keir consistency is the key.
Well did an easy 7miles (in 58mins) last in quite cool singapore evening, then tonight i did 8miles with 10x100 (in1hr 12mins) and it was hot and humid out there and it was hard work from the off.
Is everyone running tonight?
MXB - wow that's great. It has taken me 5 years to get to sub 50 for 10K.
Been and done my run already. 5 miles at 5:30.
Ship - I can't say that it is easy running at that time of day. I do prefer a longer lie and running at night, but I find that life gets in the way and the running doesn't happen so I force myself (most of the time) to get up and do it.
Kease7 - that sounds pretty uncomfortable. I remember it was very hot and sticky when I visited Singapore briefly and that was without running.
Hey Fiona J, Yes running is hard out here. Finally after 2 years I learnt you need to drink at 500ml of water/sports drink for every hour run you do. I've also become a treadmill fan reluctantly as sometimes needs must.
I have been known to do 13miles on them out here, you just need some good music on your mp3
Thanks - very good points!
One thing which has (I think) helped already is buying a Garmin 610, which I can programme to beep and vibrate horribly at me if my heart rate drops below a certain level. I did a threshold session last night and kept an average HR of 168 compared to the 166 it's been on previous occasions.
Thanks - no, no sport at any level.
bliddy hell, mxb - that's what I call some debut! Wonder what you are capable of going forward! It's taken me 5 years to go sub 3:30 eventually.
same here, ale
. I'm too fat and too old to ever go sub-3 
Kease: humidity is always a killer. I ran this morning
. And I should have donned my wetsuit, it was bucketing 
. I think I'm about to develop webbed feet what with all the rain ...
Not sure if it's normal, Tek but it's deffo the same for me and my marathon was October 7
.
It might be worth finding and listening to Steve Way (aka Marigold)'s interview on episode 13 of Marathon talk MXB. It sounds like you, like him, have a bit of natural talent.
Tek/ Chick. It might just be your legs arn't 100% after the marathons and that manifesting itself in the heart having to do a bit more work for a given speed?
Chick - hope we're back on track soon!
Gaz - thanks, that should be it. Just clicked onto Keir's suggestion re Steve Way...his beats per mile are like 800!!! I was so proud about getting below 1400...
Dylan - Myself and Al were just dicussing a few pages back that 1:23-1:24 region is a good sub 3 hour indicator that we are both aiming for in Silverstone and I agree my half marathon will tell me the shape I'm in. I'm aiming for 1:28 but time will tell if it happens.
MXB- I noticed we both ran in the Regents Park 10k Series this year. You ran a sub-39 and just 4 and a half months later you achieved a really fast marathon time - that's a seriously good improvement. Every time someone that tells me that my aims are unrealistic I will use your success as motivation!. Were you using every training session to build up your aerobic base or did you also throw in a few tempo runs or intervals with your club?
Yeah, although my 10k times are not as good as my marathon time, which I think is slightly unusual, so I wouldn't draw too many conclusions. Even now I haven't gone below 36 mins. I cannibalized bits of P&D55-70 and 70-85, averaging around 70 to 75 miles a week. I ran to and from work which helped. Have you joined a running club?
Keir - thanks for the tip, I'd be interested to hear Steve's thoughts because I've read about his background online.
MXB: can I ask a third question?! Do you have a flexibility or strength training regime that helps injury-proof you?
Cheers!
Forgive me MXB, I am still waiting for the book to arrive, do those plans include a lot of speed work or tempo runs alongside the long runs and easy miles? I have recently joined a club yes. You must be really unsusceptible to injury to go from a non-runner to 70-75 miles! I don't think my knees would enjoy that much running.
Afraid not. I don't even stretch before or after runs (I should probably start doing that though).
Yes - there are a few tempo runs at LT pace to do, and a fair few VO2 sessions (where your heart rate is 95-98% max). Personally I skipped almost all the VO2 sessions on the basis that (a) they're bloody painful (I once managed to keep my heart rate at 90% for 20 mins and it was so unbearable I just never wanted to do it again) and (b) I'm not sure how useful they are - you can only run at VO2 max for around 8-12 mins, so I figured (in an amateur, lazy way which is probably wrong) that tempo runs would be a more efficient use of my time and energy. So far as I could tell, pure endurance and LT pace are the biggest factors by far in marathon performance, so I just focused on those with recovery runs thrown in to make up the mileage.
MXB: yes, leave no stone unturned!
I agree with your "lazy thinking" Mxb, I don't think those VO2 sessions are anywhere near as important for marathon running as the LT runs. I think they are there to try and put a "fine edge" on things whereas the long runs and LTs are the bread and butter work outs.
Yes - they might be of some benefit, but given (a) time constraints and (b) the fact that I don't really want or need to run the last 5km in sub 15 minutes, I'd go for an LT run instead. Might be different if I were national standard though.
Theres also c) going tear arsing around town at that sort of pace in liable to get me either injured or run over.
Wow MXB you are my new hero, along with Steve Way
I finished off the week last night with a 9.5 mile run as part of my commute home, with 4.5 miles at 07:20/mile, which according to P&D and my HRM, is fairly close to my marathon pace. Heart rate for the 4.5 miles was between 160-165, and that is around 82-83% of my WHRR.
Being completely honest, the aim last night was to do 5 miles at HMP (which should be around 06:50/mile), but I was carrying a rucksack with laptop, etc, in it, and my legs just didn't want to go that fast.
10 easy miles this morning, again as part of commute to work..... Happy running everyone!
YP
YP - please take this in the spirit of debate...but P&D give 73% to 84% of WHR as MP, which I've always taken as 73% to 77% for H1, drifting up to 84% by the end.
Drift in my last mara (which I did in a -1min neg split) was 18% (including the first few miles of easy HR until I hit normal operating HR for the first half).
If you're at 83% WHR after 4 miles, where do you think you'll be at mile 23?
Also 30 secs between mara and HM pace is several years away for me (only just broke 60 seconds).
please don't be offended...
Not offended at all.....
When you say your drift was 18%, do you mean you went from 66% to 84%, or do you mean you started at an average of say 170bpm, and drifted up by 18% of 170 to around 184bpm?
Also, how big is the gap between your HM race pace and mara race pace?
I wouldn't dream of trying to race a marathon at 07:20, but I know I can hold that pace at around 160-165bpm for 13-14 miles (without a rucksack on my back), so I'm experimenting with using it as my MP for training purposes.
YP
I did six miles (easy) yesterday evening to test out my new HRM. I kept my HR below 150bpm for the run and it took me almost exactly 48minutes or 8:00 pace.
I think I'm on the right lines but I keep reading conflucting information about where certain training zones start and how to measure HR Max. So any heart rate related advice for base building will be hugely appreciated.
Hi YP
I use maxHR so mile 1 was 72%, mile 26 was 90%, but let me convert that to WHRR
mile max WHRR
0-5 74 66
6-10 77 70
11-15 80 74
16-20 84 79
21-25 87 83
26 90 87
I admit I ran a conservative race, but I've bonked 6 times previously...
HM/MP gap is now 54 secs...
I never really understood heart rate drift. My heart rate tends to decrease over the course of a long run even as my pace remains constant.
For example, over a 34km run approx 1 month before my marathon:
15:04 - 4:13/km, HR of 157
1:13:56 - 3:59/km, HR of 156
1:46:12 - 4:04/km, HR of 153
2:11:11 - 4:10/km, HR of 152
2:24:03 - 4:11/km, HR of 151
You're wierd MXB!
What was is like during the marathon?
No idea, I didn't wear my HRM, which I regret now.
you need a new HRM, mxb
YP: good running there. A backpack, especially a heavy one, will always elevate your HR anyway, so without it HR @ 7:20 pace will be a lot lower.