P + D training for VLM 2013

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Comments

  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭

    I'll be on the smug bastards start. I'll probably get trampled by the lot of you speeding past me.

  • ChrisJ77 - if you declared 3hrs then you will be further ahead than I was!

    Pacer's can go too fast too - I followed a pacer at Reading HM once and he was way too fast at the start and up the first set of hills (inclines).....beat him at the end though, by hanging back and then moving through.

    I felt really exposed as I went past - so the mind still plays tricks, even if it feels right.

    Good luck with whatever decision you make.....have a plan, execute = simples!

  • Sounds like a good idea HeOw (and Mike). Still feels a bit early to be planning. Being a pessimist there is a lot that can go wrong between now and the start, so I'll leave the proper plan to later (hopefully). But good to get so many ideas and strategies to think about.

  • Hi All

    Blimey there's no shortage of activity on this thread - can't keep up with it all!

    I am one of the sevaral (it would seem) targeting sub 3 come April 21st and reading the last couple of pages on targets/pacing etc has been an interesting read. I started the plan after getting a GFA entry (3:13:38 @ Milton Keynes last year @ the age of 47) and my sole aim since starting the plan was a target of breaking 3hrs (ie 2:59:59 would do me very well thank you very much!) - I have run all the sessions to the dot for the last 11 weeks which led to me running a decent half yesterday finishing in 1:21:41

    This has led to a couple of very encouraging and supportive posts from a couple of guys (thanks btw) suggesting that my sub 3 goal is conservative and that something between 2:50 & 2:55 may be acheivable - however I am also (like one or two others) continuing to err on the side of caution and stick to the planned 3 hr target/pacing. If all goes brilliantly on the day & I hit the 20 mile mark @ 6:50 pace & still feeling good then I may try & pick it up (although tbh I'll just be happy to maintain pace at that point rather than slow down!)

    I guess I'd rather run a 'comfortable' 2:59 and bag the 'Sub 3' tag than risk the months of hard work to go a little faster and then blow up - at the age of 48 I don't think I've got too many attempts to go sub 3 left in me - but as has been said I guess we're all different which is what makes it so fascinating - however at least I'm content knowing exactly what my plan is and that's what I'm sticking to!!

    NN - sorry to hear you're not feeling well (especially if it was a dodgey post race cake!) and yes it was cold at the start - I even kept my gloves on to race in! Hope you feel better soon 

  • MennaniaMennania ✭✭✭

    bang on Dave!!

    Re the start - i put down 3.15 as target time and was over the line in 12 secs. If you have put 3 down you should be up there.

    VLM 2012 - heres a link to the 2012 results, its a good site to have alook around Gives you the race info from last year, My number is 38354 if you want a look. Would recommend you look at the masses sub 3  finishers and see their splits.  makes for interesting reading

  • Some great comments on the Sub 3, Its always been my goal, more so after getting a 1:20 half 3 weeks ago, it has given me the confidence that I could possibly do it, but I need to learn to stick to the pace early on in the marathon.  On my marathon paced runs, I run them at 6:40 and thats what i'm going for, I just need to pace right from the start, I can't wait for this and if I do achieve I will be wanting to better it, I'm 40 at the moment and really enjoying my running and since I started this P&D I feel fitter & stronger and I have only been on it 4 weeks.  

    No Pain

    After reading what you mentioned on your first marathon and what you learnt, I will be taking that all onboard.

     

  • Chris - I have done London 6 out of the last 7 years and I have started from all 3 starts. If you put  3 hrs you should be in at worst Pen 2 and I would expect you to be over the start line in a few seconds and you shouldn't be held up at all. The first 3 miles are slightly downhill so easy to get carried away.

    I did my first sub 3 at the age of 54 and again last year but I couldn't recommend my pacing strategy. Both times I have done the first half as an unofficial half marathon pb and then just hung in there for the second half. It worked for me but not something I can recommend!!!

     

  • TenjisoTenjiso ✭✭✭
    Chris J77 wrote (see)
    I'm hoping that the pfitz plan has enough endurance built in to help translate the shorter distances up to marathon.

    Amen to that!!!!

    My marathon time is now the only one that is totally out of kilter with my other race times.

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    NP - do you think that was a bonk?

  • Thanks for all those posts on pace guys, will help me and keep me in my place, 8.15 miling not 8. I have to remember I am 59 and it is 5 years since my last marathon, getting back the pace is a lot harder than if I was 29 and might take more than 18 weeks on a P & D programme.

    NP that was certainly some fall in the second half of your first one and shows the value of the 20 milers, which means 3 more of those for me this month. 

    Have run my 8 miles with 5 x 600m at 5KM pace, all the intervals averaged just under 7 min pace which feels very hard to me, have got a 5 x 1000m session next week which I'm really looking forward toimage

     

  • When I say guys NN you're included, not ignoring your advice at all.  You are an experienced runner and it's good to have somebody a similar pace on here to compare a few things.  I ran my last lot of VO2 intervals at about 7.15, increased them for this one because you said you did yours at 7s.  Thanks it hurt image 

  • TenjisoTenjiso ✭✭✭
    JF50 wrote (see)

    When I say guys NN you're included, not ignoring your advice at all.  

    Having just alienated all of the other girls, I'd say it's best to stop digging. image

     

  • TenjisoTenjiso ✭✭✭

    I'm afraid I'm also experienced in the second half fail:

    2009 13m 2:08:29   Finish: 4:38:23  image

    2012 Halfway  2:14:05   Completed:  4:38:54

    The 2009 marathon was simply going out too fast, and not making allowance for the heat on race day.  In 2012 I was on target at halfway and struggled from 19m.

    I'm really hoping that the P&D emphasis on mileage will change the way I feel for the final 10km.  I'm already noticing a big difference in how I feel after the long runs, which gives me hope.  I'm also better at pacing (with a garmin), if I can keep my head as the tide goes out.

    Third time lucky!

  • chickstachicksta ✭✭✭

    Nice speedwork, JF50 image. I'm with NN and others on the conservative pace. It's such an amazing feeling to get the pacing right and overtake loads of struggling people towards the end image. It took me a number of races to get there though image

    Chris J77 wrote (see)

    Also it's really strange comparing successful and unsuccessful 3 hour attempts of people I know. Some really fast guys have struggled, whereas more mediocre ones have posted amazing times in comparison to their shorter distances. I'm hoping that the pfitz plan has enough endurance built in to help translate the shorter distances up to marathon.

    Some people are more geared towards shorter distances and struggle with the endurance side of things. Many guys also run wayyyy too fast in training and leave their perfect marathon on the road coz they are knackered.

    NP's advice is spot on
    Chris77 1:22x2 = 2:44+15 =2:59 which is 6:50 pace London is hard to neg split so half way in 1:27 will allow for fade.

     

    No Pain wrote (see)

    I set off feeling on top of the world, bouncing with energy thinking 3hrs or under no bother miles 7 to 18 went by no problem, I went through the half way point in 1:28. I had never heard of gels not sure if there where any back then, no Garmin but used a watch with laps for pace and was running well.miles 18 to 22 I started to feel tired my legs just got so heavy I was slowing down fast, by mile 23, I was run/walking by mile 24 I was walking by mile 25 I was shuffling. I finished in 3:52 so the first half was done in 1:28. The second half in 2:24. Most of the time taken in the second half was between mile 22 and 26.

    What did I learn:
    1. More long runs in the build up.
    2. Fuel during the run.
    3. Most important go easy in the first 18 miles then add more speed if you can.

    Ouch! That must have hurt image

    Mike Sheridan wrote (see)

    I was in the general VLM start last year (3:45:xx) and we came to a complete stop for over 2 mins within the first 800m. Just pressure of the crowd narrowing the road and '000 of runners trying to get through.

    So, if you are calculating to the second for a major mark e.g 3hrs don't forget the buggeration factor!

    Stay alert through Docklands (bottom end and just as you turn north); it is as boring as hell, there is a slight hill and the breeze follows you round the buildings; there is little crowd inter-action so you can easily drop off the pace.

    Finally, with my experience of just 2 maras: I would go for a negative to even split which is what I achieved. If you press "Go" to soon you will never get it back at the end......anyway, the crowd might temper your pace.

    You must decide on a plan before you start otherwise your head will be in turmoil - then adapt after the Bridge.

    Finished in 3:32:xx

    well said, Mike. I remember miles 1 & 2 at VLM 2010 taking me almost 20 mins coz there was a myriad of fun runners in fancy dress, 4-5 people side by side in the 3:45 pen. Why ???   image

  • chickstachicksta ✭✭✭

    15 mile MLR d&d this morning. Beautiful day. My cardio has come a long way and I felt strong but my legs are shot as the mileage is catching up with me image. Off to Denmark for a week on Saturday. Very much looking forward to short easy running along the beach with no pressure (built a spare week into my plan image).

  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭
    Tenjiso wrote (see)
    JF50 wrote (see)

    When I say guys NN you're included, not ignoring your advice at all.  

    Having just alienated all of the other girls, I'd say it's best to stop digging. image

    Haha, I don't mind because I didn't offer any specific pacing advice. HeOw, on the other hand...

    I did my VO2 session early this morning and, like JF50, set the pace a bit faster this time. I think I got it about right compared to the last one, as the intervals felt noticeably hard work and I felt like I could do with the recovery jogs in between. Times for the 600s: 2:17, 2:19, 2:15, 2:18, 2:17.

  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭

    Chick, enjoy Denmark! A scheduled week of playing on the beach sounds amazing. image

  • Ten - I'll be following your race strategy with great interest! I've done 2 marathons and both have gone pretty badly with finishing times well off what you'd expect from my 10k and half marathon PB's. I've entered Chester in October and really, really want to get under 4 hours. Our paces seem quite similar although you've obviously improved alot since starting this plan (hope it works like that for me!image) and I'm keeping everything crossed that you get the time you want! Your heart rate stats always freak me out though - they're so low!!image

  • I will be at fast gfa start too, so hopefully won't have any crowd problems. Though in races I often start a little back so I can have the fun of hunting people down.
  • jf50 well done on the 7 min mile reps no pain no gain as they say  (oh so thats where he got his name from ) and dont worry I am used to being ignored  men never listen thats why we women are accused of nagging .image ..I shall be setting off at 8.15s also but its not easy getting away at the blue start..Even on the gfa start which I have gone from twice and was under the clock within 30 secs , there is still the point where the three starts meet you almost come to a stand still and you run the first 10 miles shoulder to shoulder dodging people who have gone off too fast, I had my best result  off the general blue start, I was in pen 3 and under the clock in about 2 mins but its the continual stop start for the best part of 6 miles that's frustrating.. its not really classed a pb route because  of the crowds, I have entered Abingdon in Oct which isn't so crowded

    feeling a bit better but not well enough to run or do much..will be back on track tomorrow...hopefully..image

     

  • Morning

    I tried to post yesterday but I had technical difficulties. image

    Well done to all the weekend racers - lots of fab times reported.

    Also good long running from everyone else.

    NN - hope the innards settle soon.  There is nothing worse than a tummy bug.

    With regards to pacing I agree with the slightly conservative approach.  I may be slow but I have also experience the unpleasantness of the last 6 miles.  It will particularly be a problem if the weather is warmer.  I plan to go for a sub 4 hour even tho' I think I can probably do better as I would be devastated if I performed more poorly than that.

    My understanding of the pens at VLM was that they mixed up the target times in the pens so they didn't get a huge number of people all finishing at once unlike GNR.  That might explain the fancy dress in the same pen as 3:45.  I started in the green start so not so congested at the start, but was brought to a complete halt at about 16 miles where the road narrowed loads and sheer volume of people.  I found it difficult to get going again at the same pace after that.

  • literatin wrote (see)
    Tenjiso wrote (see)
    JF50 wrote (see)

    When I say guys NN you're included, not ignoring your advice at all.  

    Having just alienated all of the other girls, I'd say it's best to stop digging. image

    Haha, I don't mind because I didn't offer any specific pacing advice. HeOw, on the other hand...

    I did my VO2 session early this morning and, like JF50, set the pace a bit faster this time. I think I got it about right compared to the last one, as the intervals felt noticeably hard work and I felt like I could do with the recovery jogs in between. Times for the 600s: 2:17, 2:19, 2:15, 2:18, 2:17.

    Oh I'm fully expecting some advice from HeOw, possibly not pacingimage

    Session nicely out of the way Lit.

    Good recovery week built in Chick, enjoy Denmark, used to visit a place called Tirstrup there many years ago.


  • Oh I'm fully expecting some advice from HeOw, possibly not pacingimage         ha ha ha ha ha thats funny jf50...

    you obviously remember the conversation about cucumbers  image

    Fiona you aint slow..what annoys me about the green gfa start is the bloody celebs get to go from there , the only decent runner I have seen there is the Lovely Nell McAndrew she really has a body to die for, and talking of fancy dress there is nothing more soul destroying  than being overtaken by someone dressed as a sausage (at least I think it was a sausage image )

    Chick have a super time in Denmarkimage

    LIT fab session to get out the way well done you..

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Hello - VO2 also for me today. Again not sure whether the intervals will be outside or in the gym, I'll make a decision when out there. 600m at 5.41min/mi is roughly 2minutes....so makes interval a bit simpler to track.

    Chick - have fun in Denmark. From what I've seen on tv it's all dark and grim with lots of horrifc murders and also lots of dodgy deals in the political world of coalition building.

    Had sports massage and has helped quite a bit with my poor aching legs. It was a deep muscle one so quite a bit of pain, but as NP would say, no pain..no gain.

     

  • Oh ignore me re pacing advice Chris, I just threw that in to mix up the chat... image  NP has given cracking advice and I will be listening to him myself (when I do VLM). I do say to people though that I believe you have an X time in your (say 2:59) and you can do it two ways, the easier way, which is start cautiously just a bit slower than MRP and ease into it and race the final 10k and finish like a KING or you can pace it like the fools do (i.e. me) and think by gaining a bit of time in the start will help when you tire in the end.  It doesn't!  I do think evenly pacing a marathon very hard to do, but you won't go far wrong going out going out pretty much at race pace and sticking to it, your training will back you up.  It is the people who have realistic aims who fuck up on the day.  You have a realistic target.  

    JF50 - don't worry - I am one of the guys.  I just post fake photos of myself to JustGiving Accounts and get some blonde bird to do the running for me...  I am actually David Falconer the First.

    Still no running for moi.  Foot feels lot better today but tendon still creaking so I am dropping today's session. I will survive.  Oh yes, I will survive.  It has been 41 hours, 12 mins, 38 seconds since I last ran.  I can feel the anxiety is starting to sweep over me.  I hope I get through the day...  image

     

     

  • ** holds hands with NN ** - we shall get through this togeva. 

    Mennania - sorry meant to reply re Parkrun.  It was great thanks, 152 runners for the first one is pretty great!  Are you going to venture into the Forest one day and do it?  You can pace me to a PB.  

  • chickstachicksta ✭✭✭
    15West wrote (see)

    Chick - have fun in Denmark. From what I've seen on tv it's all dark and grim with lots of horrifc murders and also lots of dodgy deals in the political world of coalition building.

    Gee, sounds great. But yeah, based on recent telly stuff it seems to be like that image. I shall report if I ever get back in one piece image

  • UNREALISTIC TARGETS not realistic.  Jesus.  The lack of running addling my brain.

  • HeOw I have not read back properly yet hows the foot ????

  • Ignore that just found your post !!sorry lack of food and water here let alone running thats addling my brain... tendonitis !! what was it with the trainers then wrong ones ? how long will you rest for ?

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