The Middle Ground

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  • Did someone mention Dirty Leeds? We haven’t been dirty for years, we have become a soft touch and that’s half the problem, we are always at our best when we are in full on bully mode, and make no apologies for it either….image

    Anyway, I haven’t been running or reading here either, tale of woe bellow, but a cursory read back tells me:

    Vellooo
    going sub 19, nice benchmark that, means you can start thinking about 38 mins 10ks, I think I went 38:3x after going sub 19 two weeks previously…..just saying.....image

    CB is back in the game with a couple of parkruns and some of his mad early morning sessions.

    Noticed Phil back on his bike (saw a picture of your bike on facebook, old school, nice image )

    Simon
    – great mile time on a grass loop, bodes very well for the coming season indeed.


    iower: the impact of hills in a race are hard to quantify. Best way to think of a tough race like that is to think of it as a hard training run that you wouldn’t get anywhere near being able to do in training. The fitness benefits from the run will be enormous, don’t get down about it.
    I had a similar experience at a tough 10mile race last year, it didn’t go to plan, but off the back of it I hit some decent consistent training and started to get the rewards a month or so down the line including a 10k pb on a course that was certainly not a pb course.

    DT19 – looks like a sound structure, don’t be frightened to drop a quality session from time to time and just do another steady 1 hour run. Maybe aim for three quality session every two weeks to avoid burn out but still get in plenty harder running.
    As for 6 x 1m @ 10k, no that’s too hard, 5- 6 x 1m at 10m to HMP might be more appropriate or some of the sessions Simon has suggested would also be good.
    Also agree with Simon, slow down the easy running.

    WJH – well done on hitting the ‘A’ target at Cardiff.

    Mr V –
    I have seen some pictures of your race on Sunday on bookface, you were in a couple, do you want me to tag you?

    Pittsy78 – nice pace on the intervals. I am a big fan of the progressive 10 milers. Don’t push yourself too hard on the first one and don’t worry if you don’t hit a pre defined pace at a certain point. I would use the first sessions as a scoping exercise, make sure you are hitting MP from mile 3-5 and then wind it up. Its better to finish the first like you could have gone harder and to wind it up a bit on the second attempt at the session.

    Tom – the link CB posted up is a good one, use the advice in there and you wont go too far wrong.

    Big Bob – nope, not looking good I am afraid, I still like planning training schedules even if I don’t end up using them, it’s the running geek in me image
    Good news on the shin, it reads like you have been sensible with it, looking forward to seeing how the race goes for you.

    Duck – that’s close to PB form isn’t it? Either way, improved pacing could see significant improvements could it not? Not to mention the next phase in training making a difference.

  • Update from me, other than an aborted test run (aborted at 0.5m) I haven’t run since the 24th April, so over two weeks with no running. I got what I thought was a standard cough and a cold, but it just wouldn’t shift after taking it easy for 5 days and after that period I started to get dizzy spells, tooth ache, pains in my cheek bones, head aches, pains across the top of my head when I bend over and lots of weird fluids coming out of my nose ( + the usual snot). To cut a long story short I have a nasty case of Sinusitis and I am now on antibiotics and a steroid nasal spray.
    Another slight annoyance is achy feelings coming from my left adductor area (particularly bad on the aborted test run mentioned above) suggesting there are more bumps in the road post hamstring injury than I had hoped for.
    So as Mr V has mentioned we have a plan to conquer the marathon based on an amended P&D plan, but before I commit to that I have a lot of work to do. I think there is a strong chance that I wont be Marathoning this year. It all depends on how quickly I can get back to pain free running and build in some mileage. I haven’t run properly since early March and I don’t want to be taking on a Marathon campaign if I can’t run 55+ miles per week pain free before I start the campaign.
    I am going on a weeks holiday to Greece on Thursday, hopefully the antibiotics and some sun might get rid of the Sinusitis and then when I can get back I can start to think about getting my running back on track. I might take some running kit with me and have a run or two on the beach, but only if I feel up to it.

    I am starting to think this year might be all about base building for next year now..

  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭

    Duck – Shame you didn’t hit the time you wanted but its still a very strong run at this stage of the season.

    YD – Yeah go for it. I can always untag if they are too unflattering image I guess your priority for now just has to be getting back fit and healthy. The last thing you want to do is go into a mara campaign when you are not 100%. Even if the mara doesn’t happen for you there is still plenty of time to get fit for shorter autumn races and then crack on with the mara plan  after that. From a selfish point of view at least I’ve benefitted from your work putting the training plan together image

    A reasonable session for me last night. 3 easy, 3 steady and then 4 at something between HMP and MP. Was actually glad of the wind and rain as it meant it was less humid than recently.

  • Duck it sounds bloody fast to me! Well done.

    YD - sounds like you've been throught the mill. Hopefully it's behind you now. Have a great holiday and don't even think about running!!

    10.4 gentle miles last night. Was going to get a cheeky 3 in at lunchtime but stressed 6th formers worrying about exams next week took up the time instead.

  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    Afternoon all.

    Duck - I'm losing track but I'm pretty sure it wasn't too long ago we'd be congratulating you on a blistering time!  Anything with a 5 on it still sounds quick to me.  A good marker for the season anyway.

    YD - Sounds tough.  A great time for a holiday!  If it were me I might be tempted to take my running shoes as well.  No pressure either way but a leisurely bimble in a foreign land by the sea can be very refreshing change from the training grind when on less than perfect form.  I can remember a very pleasant (but slow) 10 miler in Lanzarote just a couple of weeks into resuming my running after the hip op.

    Since my 67-mile sunny ride on the posh bike on Monday I've managed all of 6 miles of running, lots of walking and little else.  Initial excuse was donating blood on Tuesday, so I skipped track.  Feeble excuse since then, quite frankly, has been lack of mojo!  I'm having a mojo-dip since VLM, not losing much sleep over it, and it'll probably return when I get back into the routine of things with the quicker stuff.

    Welcome newbies.  I'll pitch in when I've got my running head back on.  (I think I said that last week!)  image

  • Big-Bad-BobBig-Bad-Bob ✭✭✭

    Sorry you didn't get what you were after, Duck - but I'll concur with consensus of it being pretty damn quick regardless! How was the weather? If the forecast wind turned up, that can't have helped.

    An unoriginal but apt observation from song seems appropriate here, YD - if you didn't have bad luck, you wouldn't have no luck at all. Enjoy the break - get yourself well. Hopefully the pair of 10 milers churned out by Mr V and CB can give you some light at the end of the tunnel to look forward to as they continue to get over their recent woes.

    Phil being a lazy arse - nuff said. image

    Raining when I got home last night, so subbed the cricket nets for a trip to Sweatshop - time to get out of the trails I've been using for all of my running so far. Had the full analysis done and though I shunned the bespoke insoles (£45...you're having a giraffe, pal!) was quite impressed with the service I got that apart. Bloke immediately identified my right leg as dominant (left leg was the torn quad) and confirmed what I'd already pretty much determined for myself that I've got an essentially neutral gait. Did reckon I've a slightly low arch on the right, and a minor tendency to over-pronate on the weaker left, but was happy that neutral shoes (which I've preferred when trying a few on recently without buying), were most suitable. Then it got interesting. Tried on some Nike Pegasus (soft and horrible), Mizunos (nah), Brooks (nah), and Asics Cumulus that I really wanted to like and were down to £82 from £110 (or so the price tag said at least), but just didn't like the fit - too roomy. Went in with a bit of a prejudice against Adidas after some of what I've read here and elsewhere, but tried on a pair of clearance (£59) Supernova Glide 4, which felt just right, and thus that's what I ended up with. Quick road test round the block when I got home last night and still felt good, so will have an easy 3 miler with some strides this evening, and then decide whether I use them on Sunday for the 10k. Expect I probably will though - realised immediately how heavy the contact has been using the trails on tarmac by comparison.

    http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/reviews/shoes/cushioned-shoes/adidas-supernova-glide-4/61028.html

    Anyone have/had a pair themselves and have an opinion on them?

  • CB, I disagree that miles in that area are junk. All aerobic paces can be useful. I would define junk miles as those where the fatiguing element outweighs fitness benefits. That would include doing extra miles when you should be recovering, doing faster miles when you should be taking it easy and runninng miles much too slowly.

    Duck, sounds good to me. I found it took me all season to nail 8/15 last year. I reckon 400 is even tougher with a smaller margin for error allowed. You'll knock out something special soon.

    YD, sorry to hear about the sickness. I know so many runners (including myself) who have had prolonged bouts of illness this past year. Thinking about base building is all very well, but I can't imagine it's much fun for the summer. Have you considered targetting something shorter in the meantime. If you find it irritating that your endurance has suffered a blow perhaps working on speed or strength as it builds back up could make things easier.

    By the way, if I were going to amend a P&D schedule it would be by taking it, throwing it away, and replacing it with something decent image ( Nah, I'm sure they're greatimage)

  • Bob, I worked my way through a pair of Supernovas (had to chuck them when they started giving me a blister, but I got about 800 miles out of them). I got another pair, but hardly every wear them now since they are too bulky. I now do all my road running in lightweight shoes and flats: Kinvara 3, Mizuno Wave Ronin, or Asics Hyperspeeds. I have some sper lightweight Asics Piranhas which I use for road races and hill/speed (i.e. 400-pace) sessions.

    A similar shoe to the Supernovas is Brooks Ghost, which I found a bit less bulky and a little more roomy.

    What winds me up about Adidas is that their sizing system is out of synch with the rest of the shoe market. I had to get 13 1/2 in Adidas and I'm 12 - 12 1/2 in all other brands.

  • Bob – I have had two pairs of Adidas Adios and a pair of Boston’s in my time and have liked them all, not sure about the Supernova, though they do look quite similar to the Boston’s.
    These days I wear lightweight/racing shoes for all my running. Brooks Green silence are my bulk mileage trainers, Saucony Grid Type A4 for racing and the latest Adios which I had planned on using for the Marathon, I had used them for long tempo runs and thought they were good. I also have a pair of Asics Hyperspeed, I fell out with those a bit after the GNR last year, it rained during the race and the daft holes on the soles sucked up loads of water and I got blisters as a result. But they are good shoes in dry conditions.
    The key thing is the shoes fit properly and are comfortable. The rest is less important, I like lightweight trainers, others like cushioning, just go with what you prefer so long as they are comfy and fit correctly.

    Mr V – I will do the tagging tonight when I get home. It’s a chap called David Aspin who often photographs local races and quite a few of my club mates were tagged in his pictures and I spotted you, prf and Hannah amongst them.
    As for autumn/winter races, then yes there are loads of good ones to target across the North. After a couple of months of base building I could quickly get into decent 10k – HM shape I would have thought, so plenty of options if I don’t do a Marathon but start to get fit in August / Sept.
    As for the Mara plan, feel free to use it, happy to bounce some more ideas round with you if you like. I think following the P&D plan would be a good move first time out for you (and me) but make adjustments to suit, mainly increasing a few of the long runs. What I liked about the P&D plan is the way the plans built over time and the emphasis on supportive MLRs and general mileage. If you follow the structure of the plans I think you will get fit.
    Good session last night, that will be good prep for the P&D plans IMO.

     

    Phil – yea, always enjoy running new routes when away from home. Also a good way to scope the area out on the first day of a holiday, fingers crossed I can partake.
    Good luck on the mojo hunt, when you decide to go looking for it. In the meantime, enjoy the chocolate sampling…

    Simon – yes it has crossed my mind. Either way I need to spend some time building my running legs back up again. Get them used to frequency before I do anything too intense.
    Out of interest, lets just assume my medium term goal is to target running fast 10ks – HMs in the Oct – Jan period before getting back on the Marathon horse again next spring. If I were to do what you suggest and work on speedier shorter stuff over the summer, how would you suggest I go about it? What type of sessions, in what order etc?   

    Looks like you are nicely amongst the miles CB, though I cant not think about running, I enjoy it too much!

  • Bob if you find the Cumulus has too much room you must have some very narrow feet! The Glide is decent, the Adiprene sole does give it a decent feel with good longetivity but I always get the "tacky" feel with Adidas. 

    I would second Simon's suggestion of looking at the Kinvara (I have two pairs, it's a great shoe). The 4 has just come out (tried it the other day and I still prefer the 3 FWIW), so I imagine soon the 3 will be available on the cheap. It's got a siginficantly lower profile to the Glide (which is a 10.5mm heel drop IIRC) so might feel strange at first. The only problem is that it's a bit wider than most Adidas shoes.

    Either that or check out Inov8's road range, they have a good selection. The Road-X 233 might be worthwhile looking at. 

    YD, that's very nasty sounding - get well soon! I imagine/hope that half of what you're feeling is just feeling crap in general and it exacerbating everything else. Enjoy Greece, get some R&R and come back all the better for it.

    Phil, given the work you put in before VLM I'm not surprised you've lost the mojo a bit. I imagine prf is still finishing off the McFlurrys he brought following the race! It must be quite a change from the trainign routine beforehand, I personally would just enjoy it for a while and mentally recharge.

    So, last night. No times yet but I am putting my time at roughly 56.1 - the clock stopped as the winner went over the line (53.38), and replying it in my head I think 2.7s difference is about right. 

    Got a decent start but my mistake was to push it too much down the back straight, trying to keep up with those in front rather than run my own race. By 200m I was already feeling my arms start to tighten which is a sure sign of beginning to tie up.

    According to cs I ran a great top bend and at 300m (there was a timer at 300m and I am sure he shouted out 40s as I went past) I was probably 2nd or 3rd. However it was like slamming a door in my face and I just went backwards, my stride shortened considerably and in the last 10m I basically had to throw myself over the line (there was a bit of a headwind on the front stretch Bob). 

    I think I need to focus on the first 100m right now and reign it in a bit, as that will directly affect the rest of the race and ensure I don't go through 200 too quickly. I think right now I am probably getting out in about 13.5, which is bang on 54s 400m pace but it's from a standing start of course so it is harder than that. This is where the race simulation 300s will come in handy later on in training. 

    Also a shout out to cs who ran the 5000m with just 4 other runners in it. Mentally very taxing, on her own for the entire race (winner was 16:45 and 4th place was 19:40), she an 25:18 which for a solo track race is very good. 

  • BBB - I used to be religious about Nike, but switched to Adidas and never looked back. Use Boston in training and Adios for racing (ha, if I ever return), but they only have 3 miles on them after 15 months, sob. I can get 2000+ out of the Bostons.

    YD - I feel your pain completely. I'm on week 7 of a chest infection. On my third round of antibiotics, different type each time, it is utterly miserable. Tried a run yesterday and it felt like a marathon. These newest antibiotics seem to be really helping but it is going to be a long road back. 

    My mood is not pleasant these days. My poor kids!

  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭

    Over 24000 messages, I note! No doubt PRF will pop in when it is 24042.

    Quick update from me: no running for a week. Ill. Shivering. Legs like jelly. Dizzy when bending. Sounds somewhat similar to YD. Not even been to the Alehouse. For the last 35 years I have gone out each Friday with friends (well, it is now down to just the one friend!): last Friday I left my ale and had to be transported home! Things are getting better, though, and ran for 12 minutes yesterday and 16 today as little tests.

    Shoes: in the 70s they were all minimalist until Nike came along with some thick wedges of a heel. Then things got increasingly padded, cushioned and clumpy. The Achilles surgeon and a couple of physios have said that these shoes may have been responsible, along with orthotics, for my Achilles and calf problems, taking away much of the natural rotation movements that you are more likely to develop with the lighter shoes. Asics DS trainers (which seem basically to be a trimmed down version of the 2060/2070 series) for me, in the main. I have a pair of DS racers, but too light, and son wears as a leisure statement.

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Bob, my transition to doing all my running in flats was not immediate. I did try to do that originally but had a few problems. I don't know enough about biomechanics for my opinion to mean much, but I believe that the majority of people's lower limbs are capable of adapting to running comfortably without excessive support from footwear, and that the majority of problems experienced are not de to some physical fault, but rather due to overuse. Pronation control trainers may mean the beginner can do 20 miles a week instead of 10 before their shins start hurting, but I think more benefit is to be had long term from letting your body adapt to the stresses naturally.

    Duck, what shoe would you say is most similar to Hyperspeed 4s? I absolutely loved mine and the HS 5s seem a little too rigid for my liking. Agree with YD that the holes in the bottom are a bit irritating.

  • YD, I would simply start with adding a few strides to a couple of runs a week. These will help improve form (if done correctly), but also allow a gentle introduction to stimulation of your fast twitch muscle fibres. A favourite of mine is to do 8 x 10 seconds, focussing on a different aspect of my technique with each one:

    1) Upright posture
    2) High hips
    3) High knees
    4) Dorsi-flexed foot
    5) Good rear-leg extension
    6) Bring heel up under buttock
    7) Relaxed shoulders
    8) Driving arms

    That order is deliberate and in some cases one technical aspect is dependent on a former (e.g. you cannot get high knees unless your hip carriage is high and they have room to move)

    I'll also make the speed with which they're executed progressive, starting at around 1500 pace and ending at a touch faster than 800 pace, although I don't worry about this too much.

    Even if you're *not* planning on switching focus to shorter stuff, I think including these types of strides in your warm up now and again can be useful.

    Once you feel comfortable with the strides, you could make the sessions a bit more structured. Early in the winter I was doing:

    2 x 4 x 200 @ 1500 pace
    OR
    2 x 4 x 100 @ 800 pace

    All done with a strong focus on relaxed running and good form. One point which may not be relevant to you is that these were done at goal race pace, rather than at current race pace.

    I wouldn't call these quality sessions. The intent was to provide some FT stimulus, pacing familiarity and to prepare myself for the more intense work to come in the spring. The natural progession is to increase the length of the reps, but once you're much over 400m for 1500 pace and 200m for 800 pace you're moving into speed endurance territory which probably isn't as useful unless you're racing those distances.

    Do you listen to the marathon talk podcast? In a recent one they were talking about shifting focus during the summer and Tom mentions how training for a mile last year really changed his outlook. Although MD is still my focus, I've learnt a lot from MD training that I would transfer to longer distance running in the future.

    If you're really want to build speed, then I'm no expert, but the following progression has worked well for me (i.e. my top speed has improved since last summer):

    1) Weights + core work
    2) Short uphill reps
    3) Short downhill reps
    4) Short track reps

    The basic idea is that the weights and core work give build my strength. Then the short uphill work allows me to work on coordinating that strength (applying it to a running action). The downhill strides are for turnover and neurological gains - I'm running faster than I could on the flat and essentially teaching my nervous system how to do it. Then finally the reps on the track are to bring it altogether and add that element of specificity.

    Of course, other benefits to gym work include injury-proofing yourself and I'm sure strength gains are helpful (to a small degree at least) for all distances.

    I think Duck might have other ideas about top-end speed, but I suspect our approaches will be different because for him speed is a strength, whereas for me it is a limiter/weakness.

  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭

    Bob:
    What Simon wrote, below, seems to be exactly the view of my Achilles surgeon and the physios involved with my rehab. But not the view of the podiatrist, obviously!

    Simon Edward wrote (see)

    Bob, my transition to doing all my running in flats was not immediate. I did try to do that originally but had a few problems. I don't know enough about biomechanics for my opinion to mean much, but I believe that the majority of people's lower limbs are capable of adapting to running comfortably without excessive support from footwear, and that the majority of problems experienced are not de to some physical fault, but rather due to overuse. Pronation control trainers may mean the beginner can do 20 miles a week instead of 10 before their shins start hurting, but I think more benefit is to be had long term from letting your body adapt to the stresses naturally.



     

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Thanks for the suggestions Simon. As I am coming back from a period of no training, using strides in a more formal or structured way is a good idea as a bridge into genuine harder work down the line. I also like the idea of breaking different components of good running form down into individual segments and adding in the next component in once you have nailed the last.
    So I will give what you have suggested a try. Once I am comfortable with the strides I will start to structure the sessions like you describe (2 x 4 x 200 @ 1500 pace etc.. using a realistic aspirational pace).
    I was also planning on adding in some hill work soon, a set of form strides before the hill session could work well as a combo session I would have thought?
    As to where I will take it next I will give it some thought. The likelihood is I will use what you have described as a pre VO2Max phase an attempt to get into decent 5k-10k shape, but I may be tempted into having a bash at some shorter stuff just yet image

    As for Marathon Talk, I have not listened to it for a while. I remember Tom doing the MD thing last year, he overtook me with 150 meters to go in his big sub 5min mile attempt.

    Kelly, Alehouse – fingers crossed for you both. My recent issues are nothing compared to what you two have gone through.

    Kudos to CS for toughing that track 5,000m race out Duck.

    Feeling better today, though not ready for exercise yet, I played a bit of football in the garden with YD Junior this afternoon and I was blowing. He is only two years old! image

  • Big-Bad-BobBig-Bad-Bob ✭✭✭

    Thanks for all the replies, folks - much appreciated. Will come back with some fuller thoughts tomorrow after my morning race in Lecicester, and a lunchtime buffet curry and beers.

    Hoping for, and should be, a better day than today unsuccessfully monsoon dodging at cricket - waste of an afternoon getting cold and bored for 12 overs of leather chasing in the field!

    Not even felt the shin for several days now, so unless that wind keeps blowing, there's no excuse not to nail the race other than a potential lack of company from a rather poor quality field looking at last year's race. If a similar field turns up, I could find myself close to the top 30 from a field of over 500, with that top 30 fairly evenly spread from 36:xx to the 43:30 or so I'm targetting. image

     

  • Big-Bad-BobBig-Bad-Bob ✭✭✭

    Quick update before we head out for lunch. Chip results probably not out yet, but read about 43:36 as some young spunker and I got involved in a big sprint finish for the line.

    Will definitely be a 2 minute plus PB, and brings the 10k nicely into line with the 5k. Would be nice if the chip comes out at 43:34, as that would dip me a second below the PB of a pal from an online cricket game I play.

    Got to stop setting myself such stiff targets though. Pleased with that, but not euphoric as I probably ought to be! Already thinking about the next targets instead of revelling in this one.

    Shin was fine during the race, but could feel it pulling a bit as I walked back to the car. Bit of RICE action going on at the moment, before I get involved in some rice action at the curry house. image

  • Bob - Well done on the PB, 2 minutes off is really impressive and sets you up nicely for the summer.

    I've just got back from my 10K race and am fairly pleased. It was part off road and had some pretty nasty hills so was never a PB course. However it was the first time i have actually been in a "proper" race at the front end. At the end of the first lap there was four of us neck and neck at the front. Myself and one other managed to lose the other 2 up a steep incline and settled in for the last 3KM stride for stride. I couldn't quite take him on the last hill and I finished 2nd in a time of 38:35. My highest ever finish and a 10 minute improvement on the same race last year. Think the marathon training paid off for the hills. Going to focus on my interval training for the next few weeks ahead of my next race.

    Duck - Still think your 400m times are insane, have you got a target to aim for this year?

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭

    Howdy folks, what's happened to BR, Hilly, Prf and Curly? Leave a fair old hole!

    Quick in and out for me, as I do go on elsewhere, but pleased to keep a nice run of pbs going. 12secs taken off the 5miler for a 27.44 today image

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    well done bob, thats a massive pb!! I did my local 10k today and my 3rd in 10 days. Extremely hilly and tough course so expectations were low after the times logged in last 2 much flatter runs. Surprisingly though it was my fastest of the 3, coming in at 41.02, my course best by 50 secs from last year as well, so kind of restored my mojo. With hindsight i felt so much more fresher during and after it as well. I dont think that can be a result of 2 weeks of the new training plan making me stronger/fitter, i think it is a result of it though in that instead of running 50 miles a week for last 2 at semi hard pace and being fatigued, other that the quality sessions, my runs have all been easy and that perhaps gave me a bit more energy today.

    Anyway, racing done for 7-8 weeks, just going to train and really concentrate on getting to sub 40, which now suddenly feels more doable in that time.

  • YD, actually I do those strides before hill sessions, and they work very well as a warm up.

    Bob, well done on a massive PB. Enjoy the RICE/rice

    Nice one, DT. It's always difficult to say exactly where improvements come from, but as long as they're coming you can't complain.

  • Well done Bob, DT and Stevie image. Duck, as a second race in a week it looks good. And some good evaluation to go with it. Times will fall eventually!

    Sending well wishes to all the sick notes out there.

    Bob - on my last first aid course (in Feb) we discussed RICE, and it was suggested that the C part is outdated, and you should let the area swell naturally, otherwise the swelling will stretch internally along the limb, rather than outwards.

    Delamere Parkrun yesterday. For a similar PE to the last 2 weeks, a 22:33 which was a 50sec improvement on 2 weeks ago.

    12.3 miles today, with no drifting of pace which has happened on my last few long ones.

    I can feel the fitness coming back. I still don't think I'll be matching my times from last summer anytime soon though, but will keep plodding.

    Christleton 5k on Friday will give me some training paces to use.

  • WJHWJH ✭✭✭

    Congrats on a great and deserved PB Bob! Impressive racing too Pittsy (nice 2nd place!), DT19 (sounds like progress there) and Stevie G (another decent PB). Also good to see you coming back into the swing on things with the Parkrun CB. Hope your feeling better Alehouse and that you can further continue with your steady running this coming week! 

    Sounds like a very frustrating time YD but it will make the comeback all the more satisfying when that time comes! Same with you too Kelly.

    Tempo run Friday evening in the end went ok. 6:29 m/m average for 3 miles with a mile warm up and warm down. Target pace was 6:27 so just missed that...not a bad session though in all. Followed this with a Parkrun yesterday on fairly heavy legs...in hindsight I should have done a steady run. Think I should really work on pacing more at these for the time being and perhaps be less prolific in turning up at them for a lung buster/PB each time. 

    Went to Marwell, Hants today to see the 10k there (girlfriends first ever 10k race!). A very well organised good natured local event for both faster and fun runners. Was nice to watch and support rather than race for once. 

  • Big-Bad-BobBig-Bad-Bob ✭✭✭

    Simon, YD, Duck, Kelly and alehouse - Thanks again for the thoughts and recommendations on the shoes. Have saved those off to a document to refer back to next time I'm in the market for some new wheels. Your thoughts, particularly Simon, are definitely confirming the way I've planned to go in getting more minimal with the cushioning as I go along. I might well have gone for something a little less cushioned than the Glides this time but for the recent shin problems. I do still plan to do some running in the less built up trails though - think I'll be keeping a lot of my quicker work grass based for the time being in fact, as well as trying to tackle a bigger proportion of my training runs off road in general. Hopefully that will give me a decent balance between a bit of protection on the road and in racing from the Glides whilst still getting a bit more conditioning in the legs when wearing the trails. 800 miles sounds good though Simon - comfortably going past the 500 miles shelf life I've read lots about!

    CB - Thanks also for the thoughts on the compression. I was going to compress overnight and at work tomorrow, but will lay off for the time being - seemed to make progress with the initial flare up without it, and the missus is going to have a word with some of her outpatient colleagues at the hospital tomorrow to get their feedback on the issue.

    Kelly - Week 7 of your chest infection? That's grim. image Glad you're now getting some improvement though. Bad news for you too, alehouse - similar to YD, that was all you needed after your other issues. Trust all is still well there?

    Right - the good stuff that we're all here for!

    Pittsy - Top racing there, and congrats on the 2nd place. 10 minute improvement in a year is terrific. Very motivating to hear too. If I can get a solid block of training and progress in over the next 9-12 months gives me hope I might be able to knock, say, a slightly more modest 8 minutes plus off my debut 10k time in March and be competitive at the sharp end of the V40 category in a few, at least lower key, races by next spring / summer - this is one of the longer term targets I've set for myself.

    Well done to you too, DT. Fair point from Simon, but given your punishing training schedule that you're now stepping back from, your legs are bound to be fresher as a result, so I'd wager that had an effect today. In fact, I'd back you to see some big leaps in both the training times you hit in your reduced quicker sessions over the next few weeks, and then your racing times once you get back out into competition. Hopefully whilst it's perhaps held you back somewhat recently until now, you'll begin to reap the rewards of that hard training as your body gets a chance to rest, recover and adapt.

    Good stuff at parkrun yesterday, CB and with the long run today - you're really beginning to step up up again now. Will look out for Christleton result with interest.

    WJH - Tempo run plus a parkrun within 12 hours or so of each other?! You nutter! image Still - should be a good block of running to harden you up mentally anyway!

     

  • Big-Bad-BobBig-Bad-Bob ✭✭✭

    Still waiting for the official results from today to appear on Run Britain, but looking at the PDF results on the race website, I think there might be some confusion. Was a dead heat on the gun time between the young spunker I mentioned and I, and despite him being given the nod I definitely took him on the line, and I'm pretty sure therefore that they've allocated him my chip time and vice-versa as I've got 43:36 for both gun and chip and I started several seconds back at the start line, whilst he's got a chip time of 43:33 which I'm pretty sure is more likely to be mine! OK, it's only 3 seconds, but slightly annoying nevertheless - is it considered bad form to query these things if that's how it comes out officially? Anyway, looks like I was 54th (though I say 53rd!) from 496 runners in total - seems that last year, the course ended up being 320m over distance which goes some way to explaining why it initially looked such poor quality when I reviewed the times yesterday!

    Oh, and will trim one of these down over the next day or two and replace my profile pic!

    http://www.yourraceday.co.uk/races/leicester_13/thumbs/MS/DSC_1310.jpg

    http://www.yourraceday.co.uk/races/leicester_13/thumbs/MS/DSC_1311.jpg

    http://www.yourraceday.co.uk/races/leicester_13/thumbs/MS/DSC_1312.jpg

    And here's me (in the background) reeling in the young lad as we take the final curve towards the finish...

    http://www.yourraceday.co.uk/races/leicester_13/thumbs/MS/DSC_1307.jpg

     

  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭

    BBB: well done on the PB! A few points...
    -I was brought up half a mile from Abbey Park and spent a large part of my life there (football, tennis, cricket, running...and even watching showjumping!)
    - The weather looks quite good from the photos...and my mother told me it had rained all day in Leicester!
    - Good luck with the changing of your profile pic: if you succeed please tell me how!

    Must get to Delamere when I am slightly fitter, CB, and well done to SG, Pittsy and DT: if I am ever to set another PB it will be either WAVA based or a very obscure distance!

    WJH: next prostate appointment is not until late June, so won't be tempted to comment until then.

    15 mins running today, so have actually run four days in a row: that was my long slow run today! Onwards and upwards!

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Bob – excellent work, 2 mins is a big chunk to take off a PB.
    As for introducing racing flats, I did it by using a pair for speed sessions
    (on grass at first) then races, whilst using a pair of cushioned trainers for
    general usage. After a while I realised I liked the racing flats more than the cushioned trainers and started wearing them for more and more general running. Soon I was buying a 2nd pair of lightweights for training. Don’t believe the
    500 mile nonsense manufacturers tell you. I have been well over a thousand on a
    couple of pairs.
    As for the gurn, must try harder 5/10 image

    Excellent work on the podium Pittsy, and 10 mins off in a year, sheesh image

    Nice one Stevie, there is a fairly quick 5 mile race up in Newcastle in November. You have just set me a nice target time to aim for……image

    Good work DT, sub 40 is a big one to break, going to be interesting watch you do it.

    CB it seems things are progressing nicely for you, well done on the recent improvement at parkrun.

    Looks like some good training there WJH, has the GF got the bug?

    Well done on the LSR Alehouse. I have always wondered about your Avatar, is that a giant bruise on your arm?

    4 miles for me tonight and it felt good, breathing was a little laboured but much
    improved. I have some weakness causing minor discomfort in the hip flexor area
    but I think it’s curable with some additional core exercises.  One thing I noticed was that if I concentrated on my posture and pushed my hips forward the discomfort was reduced. So working on my running posture is next....

  • Big-Bad-BobBig-Bad-Bob ✭✭✭

    Alehouse - Zing! Have you tried to change it recently? Mine was a trimmed JPEG and I just followed the instructions from my Profile page. Updated within a few minutes.

    And yes - glorious morning, if a bit breezy for perfect running (15mph per Garmin) in Lestar as the locals, and perhaps you, say. image Going home for me too in many ways after a childhood brought up in the County and following the Foxes, Tigers and Leics CCC as mentioned on here a couple of months back. Think I 'pulled' one of my first girlfriends on a school trip in Abbey Park if memory serves in fact! Started raining shortly after getting back to Notts at about 11.30am though, and as your Mum says, it's rained all day here and probably across the entire East Mids since. 

    4 days running in a row sounds good. Hope you can keep it rolling this time. 

    YD - Aye - disappointed with the gurn. It wasn't close enough to the finish. Was in a world of pain by the time I hit the line - gotta be a load of bollox but the Garmin actually thinks I was doing 3:33 mile pace by the time I crossed it. Highly unlikely, but did feel like I was moving and was aware of a few 'oh great finish' type comments as the kid and I fought to get there first. What does seem more plausible is that I covered the last 0.29 miles at under 5:30 pace which is pleasing, though still suggests I need to suck it up a bit sooner!

    Glad to hear you're back out there too. image

  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭

    Simon – Do you genuinely think P&D is crap? If so what would you use as a starting point for mara training?

    Duck – I’ve got a pair of Kinvara 4s but have only worn them once after getting really sore feet the first time I used them. They feel less cushioned than my actual racing flats. I might give them another try but I doubt I could use them for bulk mileage. I do like a soft shoe rather than a firm one though so maybe that’s my issue. (My flats are lunar racers which are really soft for a racer).

    Kelly – Hope you’ve finally found an antibiotic that is going to sort you out. Mega frustrating for you.

    Alehouse – Hope you are feeling better. The whole thread seems under the weather at the moment...

    Bob – Well done on the PB. Sounds like another good run. Can you send some PBs my way once you get bored of running them every race image

    Pittsy – Well done on your second place. Must have been a tough course by the sounds of it. What do you think that was worth on the flat?

    DT – Looks good for a sub 40 attempt at the end of your next training block.

    YD – Good to see you being able to get a bit of running in. The recovery starts here!

    Reasonable week of 65 miles for me including an 18 miler on Saturday. Expect I’ll try for a 19 and a 20 as well over the next few weeks so the longer runs feel ok when I start mara training. I’ve got a relays event on Wednesday evening made up of 2 mile legs. An undulating little course which I remember feeling quite tough last year (the shorter the event the more the hills kill you!). So not one for super fast times. I ran 11.02 last year so would be good to go under 11 although in reality I’m probably still significantly less fit than this time last year.

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